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[G]Micromancers Post Patch TvZ!

Forum Index > StarCraft 2 Strategy 1 2 3 4 All
 
 Micromancer   Canada. July 07 2012 12:33. Posts 116
Profile # 
Introduction

Hi I'm frostMicromancer, a high masters terran on the NA server, since the last patch giving queens the +2 range buff, the community has been in a bit of an uproar... as you can't have failed to notice. However since then I have maintained TvZ as my best matchup, with a win percentage of 65% since the patch.

The main points of this style are:
Opportunity to do damage at all parts of the game
Fast Upgrades
Fast Expansions
Delayed Tech

Lets start with the opening!

+ Show Spoiler +

Midgame

+ Show Spoiler +

Lategame

+ Show Spoiler +

That is my approach to the matchup, feel free to discuss, add your thoughts, and most importantly try it out! I want to see people using this so i can find out if it is actually good or if zergs just have no idea what the hell it is because they never see it and react poorly.

Replays

+ Show Spoiler +


Shout out to or kickass sponser Frost Esports!
check them out at:
http://www.facebook.com/FrosteSports

*Edit, New replays added!
Last edit: 2012-07-20 17:24:03
Screaming for vengance
Old Post

 
 WhalesFromSpace   July 07 2012 12:37. Posts 316
Profile # 
Yay Micromancer! More reaper builds

I have a nice reaper build coming soon too: Happy to see someone else isn't giving up on the unit.
Last edit: 2012-07-07 14:15:17
Nihility
Old Post

 
 NoisyNinja   United States. July 07 2012 12:44. Posts 982
Profile # 
Awesome guide. Good use of reapers even though they are a lot harder to use early game now that the queen outranges them. I like how you play it standard without playing it standard, using mass nukes to keep the zerg distracted while still going bio. What's the counter to this though?
Last edit: 2012-07-07 13:05:46
The world can go fuck itself. I'm not taking out my headphones.
Old Post

 
 SuperPro   July 07 2012 13:01. Posts 99
Profile # 
This seems so simple yet effective. The ability to deny a third with this build seems really good. It seems to negate a lot of the advantages that 6 queen builds offer.

I also like the pure bio with defensive siege tank approach. This prevents counterattacks and harass whilst allowing you to put pressure on the opponent. Alternatively you can skip the siege tanks, like Demuslim/MKP and just build bunkers behind the mineral line to prevent ling run-by's.

The only problem I see with this build is that if you don't force enough units with the push against 6 queen, then the zerg is going to be very far ahead. Then again, the other option is 3 cc which is even riskier.

Thank you for this post, I will investigate this further definitely try it out. I feel like alongside the Raven, the reaper is an underutilized unit brimming with potential.

Old Post

 
 Jasper-   Canada. July 07 2012 13:15. Posts 181
Profile Blog # 
Pretty much seems like the exact mma build in the liquipedia (Wiki)MMA build
Old Post

 
 Micromancer   Canada. July 07 2012 13:20. Posts 116
Profile # 

On July 07 2012 12:44 NoisyNinja wrote:
Awesome guide. Good use of reapers even though they are a lot harder to use early game now that the queen outranges them. I like how you play it standard without playing it standard, using mass nukes to keep the zerg distracted while still going bio. What's the counter to this though?


I don't feel that there is a "counter" like, a certain unit composition or strategy. I feel the strategy is solid and effective but the "counter" is to be a better player. I mean a hive tech zerg army is always very hard to deal with, so if the zerg can multitask like a beast, have alot of detection, stop the nukes, stop the drops, and engage properly they will be in good shape. I mean i don't always win, I will post some replays of me loosing when i get a sec. There is one in particular that i'm thinking of, where the zerg had a strong infestor broodlord army, even though i was insanely ahead economically for like 20 min i could never get a good engagement on his army. I don't think he was even mining by the end and i was still on 4 mining bases but i just couldn't do anything about the army.
Screaming for vengance
Old Post

 
 Micromancer   Canada. July 07 2012 13:29. Posts 116
Profile # 

On July 07 2012 13:01 SuperPro wrote:
This seems so simple yet effective. The ability to deny a third with this build seems really good. It seems to negate a lot of the advantages that 6 queen builds offer.

I also like the pure bio with defensive siege tank approach. This prevents counterattacks and harass whilst allowing you to put pressure on the opponent. Alternatively you can skip the siege tanks, like Demuslim/MKP and just build bunkers behind the mineral line to prevent ling run-by's.

The only problem I see with this build is that if you don't force enough units with the push against 6 queen, then the zerg is going to be very far ahead. Then again, the other option is 3 cc which is even riskier.

Thank you for this post, I will investigate this further definitely try it out. I feel like alongside the Raven, the reaper is an underutilized unit brimming with potential.




I kinda feel like that isn't really a problem, I mean with the 6 queen build they won't be able to have any other kind of tech out by the time the push comes like, banelings or roaches, with 6 queens they won't even have a spine. And its exactly that kind of queen and slow ling composition that this build is strong against. If you just keep pushing I think if you "don't force enough units" you just kill the zerg. I mean if you butcher your control its very possible to come out behind but as long as you control well i feel like without gas the zerg doesn't have alot of options to combat you with.

On second thought if this build catches on and zergs learn to sniff it out very early, and save most of their energy for transfuse instead of creep spread, they could probably hold pretty well. But at the same time he won't have creep spread.. and he can't chase your army down with queens so if it becomes apparent that you aren't going to win you can still retreat, and fall back on your own fast third and upgrades and not feel like your in a bad situation.

I did see the bunkers behind mineral lines thing, I think those are very good but not really a replacement for siege tanks, the bunkers will help with runbys but not do much against banes or roaches.

Honestly though its the gasless builds that this does best against. The all ins are the hardest, you have to scout them early and control really well. You can come out in good shape but if you don't see it coming you are just dead. So learn to trust your gamesense and use those scans if you have to.
Last edit: 2012-07-07 13:34:56
Screaming for vengance
Old Post

 
 Micromancer   Canada. July 07 2012 13:32. Posts 116
Profile # 

On July 07 2012 13:15 Kaileycost wrote:
Pretty much seems like the exact mma build in the liquipedia http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/MMA_build


Almost nothing like that build except for the fact that it also uses reapers.... I mean this is a reaper into a very agressive bio push, his is a reaper into siege tank expand. Honestly did you even read the whole post?
Screaming for vengance
Old Post

 
 -Kaiser-   Canada. July 07 2012 13:52. Posts 490
Profile Blog # 
Aww come on. How many banelings busts have you /really/ held
"Perhaps love is the process of my gently leading you back to yourself."
Old Post

 
 Micromancer   Canada. July 07 2012 14:15. Posts 116
Profile # 

On July 07 2012 13:52 -Kaiser- wrote:
Aww come on. How many banelings busts have you /really/ held


Ha ha, I used those games we played to compelty redesigne my response to banelings I don't belive that we have played agains since. Hit me up next time your on we can see how they fare now. I don't think i had even worked out my building placements last time we played. I was still trying to squeeze in that third cc before the banelings hit. Anyhow you need to play more, i don't see you online enough anymore it makes me said I swear with you gone the number of baneling busts on the NA server just got cut in half.
Screaming for vengance
Old Post

  Ver   United States. July 07 2012 14:19. Posts 1881Profile # 
Unfortunately this isn't going to work against anyone good. I don't want to seem too negative here but if you are winning with it, this means you are coinflipping Zergs who don't know how to play properly. Your reapers can't actually do anything beyond attacking their 3rd hatchery for a couple seconds before they walk over their 3rd and 4th queens. Getting a bunker up at the third might actually work, but that relies on them not seeing it and simply walking their nat queen over, aka isn't going to work vs someone good. And they could simply roll the dice and allin you too because you invested a lot in units sitting uselessly at his third and have a late stim.

f they are really lazy or don't do tumor first you can deny the 3rd for a little bit but they can also just in base 3rd hatch then make 4th hatch at the third, still putting them ahead because you invested so much money in units that don't do anything. On most maps their queens will arrive at the third very very quickly, especially if they were smart and did tumor first.

The bigger problem is that you are doing a dice roll with the 4 rax bio attack but you have no way of denying the overlord scout which means that it isn't a dice roll, just an auto loss. The overlord waltzes in, sees your build, and they make enough units to either smash it and kill you after because you have no stim or hold it and drone a bunch. Either way that is game over.
Last edit: 2012-07-07 14:20:44
Twitter- @VerInspired
Old Post

 
 Jasper-   Canada. July 07 2012 14:31. Posts 181
Profile Blog # 

On July 07 2012 13:32 Micromancer wrote:

Show nested quote +



Almost nothing like that build except for the fact that it also uses reapers.... I mean this is a reaper into a very agressive bio push, his is a reaper into siege tank expand. Honestly did you even read the whole post?

Honestly did you even read the liquipedia? He uses 4-6 tanks defensively against roach bane allins and to help take the third against an aggressive player into a heavy bio late game with aggressive expands.
Old Post

 
 NoisyNinja   United States. July 07 2012 14:38. Posts 982
Profile # 

On July 07 2012 14:19 Ver wrote:
Unfortunately this isn't going to work against anyone good. I don't want to seem too negative here but if you are winning with it, this means you are coinflipping Zergs who don't know how to play properly. Your reapers can't actually do anything beyond attacking their 3rd hatchery for a couple seconds before they walk over their 3rd and 4th queens. Getting a bunker up at the third might actually work, but that relies on them not seeing it and simply walking their nat queen over, aka isn't going to work vs someone good. And they could simply roll the dice and allin you too because you invested a lot in units sitting uselessly at his third and have a late stim.

f they are really lazy or don't do tumor first you can deny the 3rd for a little bit but they can also just in base 3rd hatch then make 4th hatch at the third, still putting them ahead because you invested so much money in units that don't do anything. On most maps their queens will arrive at the third very very quickly, especially if they were smart and did tumor first.

The bigger problem is that you are doing a dice roll with the 4 rax bio attack but you have no way of denying the overlord scout which means that it isn't a dice roll, just an auto loss. The overlord waltzes in, sees your build, and they make enough units to either smash it and kill you after because you have no stim or hold it and drone a bunch. Either way that is game over.



Well, the current metagame is for the Zerg to go gasless and get a greedy, fast third while creeping up half of the map. A bunker with 3 reapers in it is enough to pick off a building hatch and/or force an overreaction. If they cancel the hatch, then bunker paid for itself and if the reapers get a good handful of kills, then they pay for themselves also. Against zerg, if you're forcing them to make and lose units in engagements where you are coming out on top consistently, then the zerg will die sooner or later because of a lack of an economy while yours is steadily increasing.
The world can go fuck itself. I'm not taking out my headphones.
Old Post

 
 Jombozeus   China. July 07 2012 15:30. Posts 1000
Profile Blog # 
Why do people say they are high masters when they are 587 points on ladder?

http://sc2ranks.com/us/2188016/Micromancer

3 bonus pool. (taken from ingame ladder search)

Current bonus pool total: 318.
587+3-318 = 272.

272 points above diamond.

In comparison GM is 770 points above diamond (roughly). That's low-mid master in my book...

People have already picked apart your build, I'm just here to show that almost everyone who posts saying they're high masters is either lying or have very wacky judgments.
Last edit: 2012-07-07 15:32:21
Old Post

 
 Sianos   July 07 2012 19:13. Posts 528
Profile # 
I watched your build in the first replay in action. The idea is behind this is good, but your attack comes quite late 8:00 - 8:30 if i remember correctly. Also you don´t have any opportunity to deny scouting because you invest in 3 reapers, which means that a decent Zerg will be able to see your barracks and reactors going down and ou are very low on units until your reactors finish. If he just decides to baneling bust your natrual when he see´s your 3 barracks going down you will end up with a huge amount of damage. He has also the opportunity to just mass some lings and deny your natrual completly. In fact this build heavily relays on your opponent beeing incompetent in scouting. It may work because you face a lot of zerg´s who aren´t able to scout proberly, but this isn´t definitly a build which i will choose to play.
Old Post

 
 Sircoolguy   United States. July 08 2012 04:08. Posts 47
Profile # 
Plat terran here. So I tried out a variation of this build which I think might be stronger in the long run, a mech follow up. The reapers and hellions do a great job of preventing creep and preventing a fast 3rd if the zerg goes 4-6 queen. With regards to all in's if I see something obvious just don't go reapers. I.e. 7rr or 1 base bane bust. The biggest worry is the 2 base roach bane all in with the reaper build. Most people don't think it can be held off with a reaper opening like this. What I have done is go factories where I would switch the tech lab and a get fast tank fast siege and pump out some rines. From here I make a hellion afterwards out of the 1st factory. The 2nd factory I build goes right into reator hellions, the third going to a tech lab for tanks/thors etc. I was able to get a fast blueflame with this becasue I can get earlier gas so it should be pretty decent against the all in if you make tanks hellions out of those. I haven't had a guy go mutas yet, but I'm assuming it will just go into standard mech play after this. If they go roaches you can squeeze out a nice timing with about 4 tanks and a bunch of hellions and maybe a thor and try to kill a third becasue they probably don't have the gas to go mutas well. Anyways this method has worked for me, but I'm plat. Any thoughts?
Old Post

 
 Micromancer   Canada. July 08 2012 06:47. Posts 116
Profile # 

On July 07 2012 14:19 Ver wrote:
Unfortunately this isn't going to work against anyone good. I don't want to seem too negative here but if you are winning with it, this means you are coinflipping Zergs who don't know how to play properly. Your reapers can't actually do anything beyond attacking their 3rd hatchery for a couple seconds before they walk over their 3rd and 4th queens. Getting a bunker up at the third might actually work, but that relies on them not seeing it and simply walking their nat queen over, aka isn't going to work vs someone good. And they could simply roll the dice and allin you too because you invested a lot in units sitting uselessly at his third and have a late stim.

f they are really lazy or don't do tumor first you can deny the 3rd for a little bit but they can also just in base 3rd hatch then make 4th hatch at the third, still putting them ahead because you invested so much money in units that don't do anything. On most maps their queens will arrive at the third very very quickly, especially if they were smart and did tumor first.

The bigger problem is that you are doing a dice roll with the 4 rax bio attack but you have no way of denying the overlord scout which means that it isn't a dice roll, just an auto loss. The overlord waltzes in, sees your build, and they make enough units to either smash it and kill you after because you have no stim or hold it and drone a bunch. Either way that is game over.


Ok, first of all the reapers do much more than attacking a hatchery for a couple of seconds, if they throw it down to early they can cancel it, and more importantly they can poke around the zergs base to get a good feel for his gas timings and unit composition. Also when it comes to the actual attacks or defending against an all in the reapers play a huge role, with good micro their super high dps against light units makes your army significantly stronger.

its hardly a 4 racks bio all in because you take a very fast third and have very strong upgrades behind it. Stim starts as soon as combat shield finishes and is complet by the time any follow up attack on the zerg part comes. Like honestly what are they even going to do? Go mass queen into baneling bust? Those are two completely different builds. The attack is strong enough that unless the zerg is massing units from very early that he can not "smash the attack" he can make enough units to hold it off and eventually push it back but either way he is making alot of units which aren't drones while you have your third cc up and running.

It is pretty obvious that you have not watched the replays, please do that and then come back with some comments. In one of the games you will notice that he makes enough units to hold it, but because of the queen tech rout he has to pull back up his ramp into his nat to survive it. My army contains him and denys his third base (he does have an inbase third) and he drones behind it untill he has enough gas to make banelings and bust out of the contain. By that time my third is allready up and running and I have a bunker line to protect it, and a 20 food lead.

People say that this doesn't work against people any good, but I developed it with one of my friends named frostSwarm, If you want to say flat out that the build is no good then you are disagreeing with a zerg who is ranked 175 in NA. Someone else was saying that my ladder rank is not high enough for me to call myself high masters, right now it is not the highest because i am changing how i play all my matchups but if you look at my history i think i peaked somewhere around rank 1000 in NA, not very low either, to give you an idea of my MMR i have run into 5 GMs on the ladder. Anyways between my win percentage in the matchup and the things i have just told you, i think it is hard to argue that the build isn't effective. If you want to have a real discussion about how to improve, use differently, or adjust or counter the build i am more than open to that, But just flat out saying its bad with no evidence to back it up seems wrong, and pointless given my stats. And thats not 65% win rate out of like 20 games, I have played 279 games this season, and just under 800 last season. So this stat not a result of running into a few bad zergs on the ladder, it shows i am consistently winning more almost double what i loose over long period, in a matchup where most terrans are winning less than half of their games.
Screaming for vengance
Old Post

 
 Micromancer   Canada. July 08 2012 06:52. Posts 116
Profile # 

On July 07 2012 19:13 Sianos wrote:
I watched your build in the first replay in action. The idea is behind this is good, but your attack comes quite late 8:00 - 8:30 if i remember correctly. Also you don´t have any opportunity to deny scouting because you invest in 3 reapers, which means that a decent Zerg will be able to see your barracks and reactors going down and ou are very low on units until your reactors finish. If he just decides to baneling bust your natrual when he see´s your 3 barracks going down you will end up with a huge amount of damage. He has also the opportunity to just mass some lings and deny your natrual completly. In fact this build heavily relays on your opponent beeing incompetent in scouting. It may work because you face a lot of zerg´s who aren´t able to scout proberly, but this isn´t definitly a build which i will choose to play.


That what your are misreading here is that the push is a result of your own scouting information. It is triggered by seeing your opponent not taking gas. Therefor it is impossible to have to deal with a very fast baneling bust. You can open no gas and then switch into later, normally roach baneling attack, but this also can be spotted by the reapers. They allow you to keep a good eye on the queen count, if he is planning a roach baneling he can not keep making queens. If he opens gasless and then only makes a few queens, i scan to see what he is up to. If it looks like he is going to be aggressive i have lots of time to prepare. The zerg is not the only person who is allowed to react in this game, we terrans do not just blindly follow a build order with our eyes closed. Thats why i have the largest section of this guide related to scouting, and your different reactions upon what the zerg is doing. I suggest you read it.....

What you have essentialy said in your post is that if the zerg goes for a baneling bust, And i follow my own build incorrectly and decide for some reason to go down my branch for a gasless mass queen style instead of my branch labeled all in then i will loose. But that is why i took the liberty of putting both routes in the guide.
Last edit: 2012-07-08 06:58:03
Screaming for vengance
Old Post

 
 Iron_   United States. July 08 2012 08:50. Posts 319
Profile # 
The problem I was seeing in the reps, as was already mentioned a couple of times, is that it is reliant on a coinflip. For instance, in one of the shakuras games, your opponent SCOUTED all marines, no stim, HAD a baneling nest, and inexplicably decided it was a good idea to just attack you with slowlings off creep instead of using his 700! gas to make banelings. If he makes the simple and easy decision to make banelings vs an all marine no stim army, you lose that game very badly. I am a master Terran, and every zerg I play seems to have alarm bells go off if they see an all marine army to make banelings. I have no idea what this guy was thinking.

The reapers are VERY gas heavy, make your stim very late, and make your medivacs very late. Your medivacs are coming out at like 15 minutes into the game. If you were not 50 food ahead of these guys already (because of terrible reactions to your build), this would have no boded well for you.

If you are having success that is great, keep it up, but this does not solve any of our underlying problems with this matchup. You are throwing some unusual stuff at the zergs, they are getting confused, reacting badly, and losing the game. I mean, you are dropping 5+ nukes!! on the same place, and STILL the zerg makes no spores, and still does not dedicate an overseer to that location. He just takes the nukes over and over again? These guys just looked confused honestly and really did not play well at all vs these strats.

Also, notice how you are like 30-50 population AHEAD of the zergs. I mean... this is just weird, and due to the fact that you are gaining a huge advantage based on a confused bad reaction by the zerg player to a strange opening that they never see.

This strat can be compared to a toss who decides to proxy 2 gate outside the terran nat because terrans are mostly 1 rax FE'ing. Sure, that will win you some games right now because terrans will be taken by surprise, but it does not mean that the proxy 2 rax is the answer to anything. You would probably make some master Terrans look like gold players defending 2 early zealots with 1 marine and half a bunker, until they can assess the situation and understand how to react (IE instantly get the wall finished and fly back into your base).

Again, have at it if you are having fun and winning some games, but before you put all of your eggs into this basket at least play some zergs that react in a competent fashion (IE send queen to 3rd knowing you have reapers out instead of sacrificing the third, make banelings with their 700 gas instead of hitting you with moderate amounts of slowlings off creep, make overseers to stop nukes number 5 and 6 from hitting exactly the same place, build things with their larvae instead of having you go up by 50 food in the mid game, etc).
Old Post

 
 Komentaja   United States. July 08 2012 11:06. Posts 252
Profile # 

On July 07 2012 15:30 Jombozeus wrote:
Why do people say they are high masters when they are 587 points on ladder?

http://sc2ranks.com/us/2188016/Micromancer

3 bonus pool. (taken from ingame ladder search)

Current bonus pool total: 318.
587+3-318 = 272.

272 points above diamond.

In comparison GM is 770 points above diamond (roughly). That's low-mid master in my book...

People have already picked apart your build, I'm just here to show that almost everyone who posts saying they're high masters is either lying or have very wacky judgments.


It's easy enough to just draw a line at the Top 25 mark in your league. That is the top 25% of masters -- high masters in my book. He is #24 according to the sc2ranks. There is no official ruling on what high masters is (...), though, so I agree that people should not say "I am High Masters", and instead should say things like, "I am in the top 25 of my master's league" or "I have x ladder points in masters".

BTW I would like to try out your build. I was using a similar 3 reaper opening a few months ago, but didn't have all the paths well figured out. I kept losing to baneling busts, which your guide addresses with a few tips I didn't think of. Your guide eems like an alright game plan.
Last edit: 2012-07-08 11:08:50
“He taught only one class: 'Unlikely Maths'. But since the time was listed as "now" and the place, "everywhere," this was hardly helpful in tracking him down.”
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