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 Belial88 United States. July 07 2012 16:44. Posts 5217 | Profile Blog # |
I'm a bit confused on how to deal with FFE 2 gate recently.
http://drop.sc/216518
I used to just make a 6:30 roach warren, and treat it like a 4 gate +1, but then I started to have trouble with people who would just move out with 3-5 initial zealots without +1. So I'm confused on what to do there. In this replay, you can see that I'm just like 20 workers behind right away because I respond with a really fast roach warren. So I'm confused there. Maybe I should just go for like a 6:00 roach warren?
I'm also lost on double robo all-ins (i get i lost that game already by that time because of my bad response, but I wouldn't have won even if I was ahead anyways).
http://drop.sc/216519
Here's a following game where someone does it, and I try to go mutas nestea style (where you cut out roach upgrades or production as much as possible and get super fast mutas), but he still hits before my mutas really come out enough.
Against immortal/sentry all-ins, I've been going mass spines in my natural, abandon my third, and just base trade so he's on 1 base and I'm on 2, but I don't think this would work against double immortal. And I don't think any sort of ground army would work at all, as I've tried massing roach/ling before and even if I kill everything, there's just so many immortals left over because they are like thors, you just can't kill them, and 1 hp immortals are just as good as full hp immortals and so you can't really finish off the battle.
On a side note, I've been losing a lot of games to people who will do like, 1 gate nexus core, which would autolose to 14/14, but if you don't go 14/14, I'm not sure what to do, especially if they transition into immortal/sentry, I'm not sure if I should do the same base trade thing or just try to fight, maybe I'm ahead on 3 bases but I guess not. I was wondering if you guys do like some all-in against it that just always works or what.
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| Xelyxiz United Kingdom. July 08 2012 02:03. Posts 16 | Profile # |
Against this kind of thing i generally scout the 2 gate, immediately drop a warren and a geyser, allowing me to still get a fair amount of drones up but still have enough roaches to deal with this pressure. Attaching a replay but it's probably not quite the same caliber of play (low masters EU), so please let me know if i'm talking out of my arse.
Replay |
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| ThorminatorSC Denmark. July 08 2012 02:17. Posts 8 | Profile # |
Looking at the first game, you got your 3rd base up too late, and made your Roach Warren way too early. You can trade effeciently enough with just lings against Zealots with no upgrades, and while it is a lot less Larvae effecient, sacrificing minerals and drones on gas and roach warren that early really hurt your economy so much more than it needed to. You CAN treat it as 4 gate +1, just make a lot of lings if he moves out before +1. Another way to stay safe is a Spine at your natural and third, since his Zealots will be so much less effective fighting against a spine, a queen and your Lings. With that you can basically make him delay the attack until 8 minutes, in which case as you said it's almost the same as 4 gate with +1.
I'm afraid I cannot give much replay feedback on the second game, only strategic advice. I have actually had good success with Roach/Ling still, even against Double Robo Immortal pushes, it's just all about making good engagements. The double robo style won't have nearly as many Sentries for Force Fields, in which case Lings become a lot stronger as soon as most Force Fields have been baited out. There is no way to beat the all-in by attacking head on with roach/ling, even with no force fields, you simply have to split your army up in at least 2, if not 3 groups and attack from several angles. If they turtle up and wait for a bigger army on two bases, you absolutely HAVE to get drop and overlord speed and drop your army on top of theirs for a Zerg ground army to have any chance against the delayed (and in my opinion much stronger) Immortal push.
I am only mid masters currently, but I have found that with improving macro, better building timings and army control, I am actually able to beat the Protoss Immortal all-ins quite regularly simply by baiting out force fields and engaging more intelligently, since your army really is a lot weaker than theirs in a frontal attack, but much stronger once you are able to close in and focus fire the Immortals. |
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| Oboeman Canada. July 08 2012 03:21. Posts 3385 | Profile # |
I'd like to draw attention to the timing of the cybernetics core when a guy is chronoing zealots out of two gateways like that.
He started it at 7 minutes.
There is no good follow-up to that push, in my opinion, because warpgate finishes so late. This is why you see double stargate so regularly after 2-gate, because anything else is too late to be effective (and double stargate is still bad). Double robo works on the same principle I suppose.
Here's my recommendation: hold it off with lings, even if he gets +1. Slow him down by runnning around behind the zealots and pestering him, but not engaging until you have enough lings to overwhelm him, and wait until he gets into your base and fight him with lings and queens, and maybe a spine. Sure you spend larva on lings, but now you have a huuuuuge droning window because he isn't going to have warpgate for a million years. It's one push without reinforcement. Your lings take the towers and scout around for pylons, and you don't need to hurt your economy by trying to get roaches out so early.
Look at his sentry count when he finally pushed out with his immortals. One. this just screams muta ling to me. I always recommend making a spire as soon as you see a second robo.Last edit: 2012-07-08 03:55:41 |
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| Belial88 United States. July 08 2012 18:09. Posts 5217 | Profile Blog # |
Okay, so now on I'll hold FFE 2 gate by making a 6:30 warren and treating it like a 4 gate +1, and if they send out zealots earlier, I'll make lings, maybe a spine or two.
Here's another game I lose. Instead of making a new thread, here it is:
http://www.gamereplays.org/starcraft2/replays.php?game=33&show=details&id=266797
I always lose when Toss goes 1/3 gate sentry expand, and then goes immortal/sentry all-in.
In this game, the guy goes 3 gate sentry expand, fine, I get my third up, I drone really hard (a bit too hard), and he does some sort of gateway all-in. I hold by the skin of my teeth, but I definitely hold. I'm way ahead. Then I see him going robo, no third, and lots of sentries, so clearly immortal/sentry.
So I guess the 'standard' response is mass spines in your natural, base trade, but I was really far behind, so i think I had plenty of time to beat the push... however you beat it. But he's making a ton of immortal/sentry/gateway, so no amount of roach/ling would beat it. I try to get infestors, but I just miserably die.
it's like, a FFE immortal/sentry timing, maybe I get it, base trade (only beat it once, but it was by doing this so...). But this guy isn't hitting the timing, he's just massing a ton of units. I guess the answer is maybe infestors, but he has just a ton and infestors are really costly...
Help! I mean I had over twice the APM, held his initial all-in, he did a freaking 3 gate sentry expand... |
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| IcemanAsi Israel. July 08 2012 19:26. Posts 159 | Profile # |
I've seen symbol going for quick drops ( as soon as lair is up, lair is standard for 3 base ) against protoss which he either uses to get aggresive against a macro protoss or to drop roachs onto the sentry/immortal all-in - negating force fields and apparently crushing that all-in.
He went for fast drops in most of his round of 16 games against protoss and in one match against squirte held an immortal sentry all-in with what looked like ease.
I think it's this match:
http://www.gomtv.net/2012gsls3/vod/67574/?set=14&lang= ( Gom is blocked where i am now so can't make sure, it's either this one or the one before or after it ).
With force fields effectively negated by dropping on the protoss army he snipes the immortals in seconds and mops while being amazingly effective. The narrators talk about this BO being a staright up loss to a blink all-in which does also happen in one of the games.
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| DarKFoRcE Germany. July 08 2012 19:39. Posts 1125 | Profile Blog # |
| Against 2 gate zealots just build some lings, maybe a spine, but i would just go for lings tbh. if they attack they will always fight against lings + a queen, so you dont have to get overly many lings even because the queen helps alot. if they wait till +1 is done just get a spine and get roachwarren at normal timing (not even necessary because 2 gate zealots means warpgate will be delayed or they are super allin..). |
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| Nooborghini Canada. July 09 2012 01:53. Posts 101 | Profile # |
I can't see the replay cause I haven't been home in the past few days...
but here is what I usually do vs Gate Expo
Macro:
Gateway first? Get Gas while 3rd is being made.
Make spine soon as you see Cyber core, queens + spine should be ez to fend off any early.
Drone/scout/unit production accordingly, should see something funky at around 7-8 min mark.
Speedlings should help with any stupid inc all-in.
Usually, fuckers follow up with Immortal/Sentry-All in BUT, because you scouted he has a robo, go hydra/ling.
OR if you're a frisky Korean like me, go bane drops. EZ.
Mutas, you won't have up in time due to 3rd.
All-in:
(Forgeless Expo, means Gateway Nexus, Cyber)
*This will mean Warp Gates will be quicker or a Stargate play.*
Cancel 3rd IMMEDIATELY, get double gas in main.
Start Speed, Get roach warren after speed started.
Roach/ling all in.
(Forge Expo, means Gateway, Nexus, Forge, Cyber)
*This will mean Cannons will be up but delayed sentry count*
(Same as above, instead of roaches, get banelings.)
Cancel 3rd IMMEDIATELY, get double gas in main.
Drop Baneling Nest THEN Start Speed
Bane/ling all in.
YOU will have to transition out of this, mind you if the protoss holds decently enough but because you killed enough probes/forge/gate/cyber/nexus, it shouldn't be a problem.
EDIT: Deny scouting probe/zealot if you are all-inning but this is a given...
Gateway On Highground *The old S1-S3 methods of ZvP before FFE*
IF Gateway is on highground (No expo by 5-6 mins)
Blink/DT/Some stupid Gateway all in. or double robo -___-"
DT
Self explanatory...
Blink4G or 4 Gate
Cancel 3rd, get gas, get speed (Take guys off gas or leave 1 if you want, I take them off cause I need minerals for spines + MASS lings), make spines at 2nd, preferably 5-7 depending on late you react to it.
Speed will NOT be up in time for denial of proxy plyon, get spines to delay for speed then overrun.
Double Robo
This shit is just pure gay. Double robo immortal all ins with 2 gateways or 1 back in the old days of XNC? Still REALLY gay right now if protoss feels like doing this crap...
Base trade, speedlings should easily be enough to base trade.
Instead of taking guys off gas, leave 2 on for banelings, sweep around and bust his frontdoor and let the lings eat.
3 Gate Expo
This one is a bit harder to hold, I usually do my own drop play style with this opener. 1+ melee is finished by the 8 min mark, where protoss usually hits me.
Take 3rd when he expos and deny his initial push cause of spines in Natural. 2-4 Spines will deter this immediately, if he engages... then protoss is retarded, lings with speed with spines and queens should EASILY deny this and counter attack or grab 3+ and 4+.
NOTE: Protoss will NEVER contain you, if he decides to contain like a moron, make lings and destroy his sentry count. No push later on.
OR
Go mass spines + muta style. ^^
save gasses for mutas, u can get speed but prob later on, 12+ min mark cause u need that for counter attacks.
Grab 3rd when he leaves after seeing 2-4 spines.
Self Explanatory.
4 Gate off Expo is GAY.
Watch the chrono on the gateway or NEXUS.
Nexus = no gay early zealot pressure.
Gateway = 1-2 spines at natural and 3rd.
Speedlings/queens/spines should be able to rape this without problem. Don't make TOO many lings. ONLY make MORE lings if he is committing with a plyon to reinforce, then i suggest dropping another few spines w/ roach.
3-5 Zealot Pressure WITHOUT 1+
Spine+queens+lings/drones.
I pull drones because I'm too lazy to make lings.
1x Queen + 3-4 Drones > 1x Zealot.
3-5 Zealot Pressure WITH 1+
Make 2-3 Spines, make 3-4sets of lings = 6-8x lings, make sure you HUG your spines tightly, NEVER engage zealots. Use drones also to create wall.
Select ALL spines and focus fire each zealot.
He has to take time to focus drone/ling to get to spine, at this point, he should just walk away.
If he A-Moves like an idiot, AI will suffer and will focus queen/lings instead of drones/spine.
If plyon, then make more lings, drop roach warren.
Let me know if I'm missing anything.
Message me in-game if you have any questions regarding this stuff since you hangout in the Team OpTiK channel a lot anyway  . I'm at work right now so I can't really put too much time into this, maybe if enough people ask I will make my guide(s) for ZvT and ZvP.Last edit: 2012-07-09 01:54:03 |
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| Belial88 United States. July 09 2012 08:55. Posts 5217 | Profile Blog # |
^ Why do you think you can't hold gateway all-ins from a gateway expand if you take a third? I mean, specifically in this game, I hold off a gateway all-in while taking my third. I only struggled as much as I did because I droned to 70, but even with that, I held just fine...
Either way, it's not gateway all-ins from gateway expands and taking a fast third against, that I have trouble with. It's immortal/sentry all-ins from non-FFE expand openers.
(Forgeless Expo, means Gateway Nexus, Cyber)
*This will mean Warp Gates will be quicker or a Stargate play.*
Cancel 3rd IMMEDIATELY, get double gas in main.
Start Speed, Get roach warren after speed started.
Roach/ling all in.
That's an interesting idea, I may do that against it. I don't think I can reactively do a leenock style 20 roach warren style, so I'll probably just do the nestea/losira style 35 roach warren. |
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| Nooborghini Canada. July 09 2012 09:30. Posts 101 | Profile # |
On July 09 2012 08:55 Belial88 wrote:
^ Why do you think you can't hold gateway all-ins from a gateway expand if you take a third? I mean, specifically in this game, I hold off a gateway all-in while taking my third. I only struggled as much as I did because I droned to 70, but even with that, I held just fine...
Either way, it's not gateway all-ins from gateway expands and taking a fast third against, that I have trouble with. It's immortal/sentry all-ins from non-FFE expand openers.
Which exact all-in was I talking about? I forget.
(Forgeless Expo, means Gateway Nexus, Cyber)
*This will mean Warp Gates will be quicker or a Stargate play.*
Cancel 3rd IMMEDIATELY, get double gas in main.
Start Speed, Get roach warren after speed started.
Roach/ling all in.
That's an interesting idea, I may do that against it. I don't think I can reactively do a leenock style 20 roach warren style, so I'll probably just do the nestea/losira style 35 roach warren.
You could do the 35 roach warren but I just immediately put it down as soon as I see it because I don't make it a BO thing, it has to be as quick as possible sorta thing.
Prob 30-35 seems about right, don't focus on BO when I do reactionary all-ins.Last edit: 2012-07-09 09:31:18 |
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