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[G] PvP HerO's Safe Stargate Opener

Forum Index > StarCraft 2 Strategy 1 2 3 4 5 6 All
 
 DarkblueRH   United States. July 07 2012 18:27. Posts 141
Profile # 
[image loading]

So, before I begin. Day[9] recently released a daily on this build but I figured that I'd create a text version as Day[9] doesn't exactly transcribe the build and it's much easier to comprehend in text form rather than trying to copy the video. At least in my opinion. Also, this is my first strategy post so be easy.

Overview:
The overall idea of this build and why I find it to be so intriguing is that if it is performed well, your biggest fear only lies within the mirror. I.e. when your opponent also opens Stargate. In this case the person who was the most greedy with their Stargate timing usually obtains the offensive stance while the player with the later Stargate is placed into the defensive stance. All other early possibilities seem to be well accounted for with this build and I shall go into further detail about that below. This build seems to create a PvP that is, as coined by Day[9], "Not Bullshit!"

The Build Order:
+ Show Spoiler +

Defending in the Early-Game:
+ Show Spoiler +

How to React...:
+ Show Spoiler +

Pro/Con Ladder Maps and Why:
+ Show Spoiler +

Resources:
+ Show Spoiler +

Weak Points in the build the posts below will be trying to solve with additional Replays/Theory:
+ Show Spoiler +
Last edit: 2012-07-27 01:23:43
RelentlessHeroes.com
Old Post

  Belial88   United States. July 07 2012 18:44. Posts 5217Profile Blog # 
I don't know PvP, but this is an amazing guide in terms of formatting quality and post clarity. Awesome. may need some more reps though (have a rep for each build order and how to react to it would be cool)
Last edit: 2012-07-07 18:45:27
How to build a $500 i7-3770K Ultimate Computer:http://www.teamliquid.net/blogs/viewblog.php?topic_id=392709 ******** 100% Safe Razorless Delid Method! http://www.overclock.net/t/1376206/how-to-delid-your-ivy-bridge-cpu-with-out-a-razor-blade/0_100
Old Post

 
 monk   United States. July 07 2012 18:52. Posts 6798
Profile Blog # 
This is a really great build. One piece of constructive criticism I have is that the opening is a bit more unsafe than you're letting on in your guide, especially if you're doing it blindly. If you scout your opponent mining double gas, you shouldn't have problems with pressure, but gateway aggression can be a huge problem. Specifically any gateway aggression that does one or more of the following:
  • Opens with 10 or 11 gate
  • Chronoboosts one of his first 2 stalkers
  • Brings 2 probes to proxy plyons

You will have an incredibly hard time fighting the first zealot + 2 stalker poke, and most likely will have to burn your first force field, thus causing you to lose the game, because you can no longer chain force fields.
Last edit: 2012-07-07 19:34:47
@TL_monk
Old Post

 
 Makuly   Taiwan. July 07 2012 19:13. Posts 49
Profile Blog # 
This build is great HOWEVER as in pvp the coin flip does take its toll. going 1gate stargate will most definitely die to a 4gate/3gate pressure, if you survive it's because the aggressor is bad.
if he goes blind DTs you're screwed as well, going 1gate stargate THEN robo you wont have anything for detection until later on, it's just not possible.

Other than that this build is good! But keep in mind, there is no safe pvp build order im sorry to say
Last edit: 2012-07-07 19:16:04
Old Post

  Geiko   France. July 07 2012 19:17. Posts 1601Profile Blog # 

On July 07 2012 19:13 Makuly wrote:
This build is great HOWEVER as in pvp the coin flip does take its toll. going 1gate stargate will most definitely die to a 4gate/3gate pressure, if you survive it's because the aggressor is bad.
if he goes blind DTs you're screwed as well, going 1gate stargate THEN robo you wont have anything for detection until later on, it's just not possible.

Other than that this build is good! But keep in mind, there is no safe pvp build order im sorry to say


Have you even read the OP ? He specifically adresses all of your points.
geiko.813 (EU)
Old Post

 
 ThaReckoning   United States. July 07 2012 19:24. Posts 189
Profile # 
Great build, been using this on ladder to excellent effect. I've been looking for something with a more non-standard midgame feel to it like this, for a long time. This really hits the pvp spot I've been needing to scratch forever. If you need replays of ~450 point (low) masters on NA doing this, I'd be more than happy to submit any that I have.
If you want to make one goal, to win, you must lose.
Old Post

 
 Lazermonkey   Sweden. July 07 2012 19:59. Posts 1130
Profile # 
I'm using almost only stargate builds in pvp and it's my best match up. Actually, my biggest problem have been proxy warp prism 4-gates. If you move out with your second phenix, they will be in your base about the time when you are at his base with your phoenix. Stargate builds in general and this build specificallly relies so heavily on force fields in order to combat early agression. warp prims are just really evil in that the don't give a shit about them.

The only times I don't die to stuff like that is when I scout the robo proxy(and even then it's kinda hard), which shouldn't really happend unless:
1.) He is stupid and proxies it in a bad place.
2.) You scout around your base, in which case you will maybe show your 1 phoenix and will be in a worse situation vs all other builds compared to if you wouldn't have scouted with your 2 phoenix.

Low/mid masters btw
Last edit: 2012-07-07 19:59:31
Old Post

 
 uLysSeS1   Germany. July 07 2012 23:53. Posts 174
Profile # 

On July 07 2012 19:13 Makuly wrote:
This build is great HOWEVER as in pvp the coin flip does take its toll. going 1gate stargate will most definitely die to a 4gate/3gate pressure, if you survive it's because the aggressor is bad.
if he goes blind DTs you're screwed as well, going 1gate stargate THEN robo you wont have anything for detection until later on, it's just not possible.

Other than that this build is good! But keep in mind, there is no safe pvp build order im sorry to say


you are completely wrong, the only thing that counters this build is a 1 gate fe
derp.
Old Post

 
 Dirichlet   July 07 2012 23:58. Posts 19
Profile # 
Cool guide! Check out Hero's TL replay pack. There is a game where he plays against Inori (I think) where they both open stargate. Hero's immediate response is to cancel his robo, drop a 2nd stargate and expand. It turns into a very interesting macro game.
Old Post

 
 Artisian   United States. July 08 2012 00:40. Posts 90
Profile # 
Very nice. I've been using a similar build, but i couldn't think of a way to hold the dt/archon ramp busts. Thanks for sharing!
Supply is a conspiracy against me...
Old Post

 
 Pylons   Canada. July 08 2012 00:49. Posts 54
Profile # 
I've tried this a few times on the ladder, and with my experience... it doesn't work with the current 2gate robo 6:00-6:30 expand meta
Old Post

 
 Eladen   Slovakia. July 08 2012 01:38. Posts 24
Profile # 
How does this build(or other phoenix openings) hold against 4 gate blink with hallucination? I only faced it once, but got pretty crushed. Is there a way to stop it with this, or is it hardcounter?
Old Post

 
 Braric   Canada. July 08 2012 01:46. Posts 184
Profile # 
I'm going to give credit where credit is due, this is actually MVPTails build, he' was using it on his stream like literally 5-6 months ago way before Hero.

I've been using this build like literally every game, and I've found a really powerful follow up upon entering a macro game is doing a timing attack with 3 Immortals, 3 Voidrays and 3 Colossus off of 7 Gates warping in only zealots until the actual attack in which you commit to pure stalkers, (I've literally never lost with this composition unless I've messed up severely) The phoenix can later be used to lift up any immortals in his composition and it's unbelievably disgusting how fast your army will roll over his.
"Hoodor" -Hodor
Old Post

 
 Xujhan   Canada. July 08 2012 01:46. Posts 65
Profile # 
Just a minor comment about your vs Stargate section:

1gate Stargate isn't a risky build; it still gets enough FFs to hold a 4gate. Moreover, if your opponent scouts you opening double gas and zealot-sentry, there's no risk at all. Also, in a phoenix mirror, I really don't think you want to be cutting phoenixes. Even just three phoenixes represent 450 gas - enough for nine stalkers - and if you let your opponent get a higher phoenix count, they're almost entirely useless.
"I'm so bad at this."
Old Post

 
 Braric   Canada. July 08 2012 01:51. Posts 184
Profile # 

On July 08 2012 01:46 Xujhan wrote:
Just a minor comment about your vs Stargate section:

1gate Stargate isn't a risky build; it still gets enough FFs to hold a 4gate. Moreover, if your opponent scouts you opening double gas and zealot-sentry, there's no risk at all. Also, in a phoenix mirror, I really don't think you want to be cutting phoenixes. Even just three phoenixes represent 450 gas - enough for nine stalkers - and if you let your opponent get a higher phoenix count, they're almost entirely useless.


I actually personally feel like the only hard counter to this opening is really greedy phoenix openings, I'm not to sure how to overcome it yet but I've been toying around with taking a quick expansion while spamming phoenix and using hallucination to scout and later for a timing attack in which you mass hallucinated phoenix with your real phoenix to try and win the air battle.
"Hoodor" -Hodor
Old Post

 
 RaNgeD   United States. July 08 2012 02:06. Posts 654
Profile Blog # 

On July 07 2012 19:13 Makuly wrote:
This build is great HOWEVER as in pvp the coin flip does take its toll. going 1gate stargate will most definitely die to a 4gate/3gate pressure, if you survive it's because the aggressor is bad.
if he goes blind DTs you're screwed as well, going 1gate stargate THEN robo you wont have anything for detection until later on, it's just not possible.

Other than that this build is good! But keep in mind, there is no safe pvp build order im sorry to say


You don't know what you're talking about. This is a great build and you can survive a 4 gate with it quite easily. Because of the early sentry by the time your opponents warpgate is done, you will have 2 forcefields, and once your 2nd forcefield vanishes, you should have a 3rd. It's also really easy to stop DTs since not only are you scouting with the pheonix's, but you're getting an early robo too. And if you position your units well on your ramp, you should be able to forcefield the dts back to give yourself some time if you need it.
Love never gives up, never loses faith, is always hopeful, and endures through every circumstance. 1 Corinthians 13:7
Old Post

 
 CecilSunkure   United States. July 08 2012 02:16. Posts 2216
Profile Blog # 
This isn't really "HerO's" build. I've seen many koreans do this blindly every game of PvP for many months. You also have poor information in the vs DT section, as most players nowadays do a form of a DT expand, not a DT allin as you seem to have assumed.

There's also a few variations of early WG builds than can give the zealot/sentry/zealot/sentry a hard time, for instance a 2 zeal 2 stalker 2 gate, or other similar openings.
http://bit.ly/HJBjgK - Free RTS I dev'd!
Old Post

 
 Braric   Canada. July 08 2012 02:35. Posts 184
Profile # 

On July 08 2012 02:16 CecilSunkure wrote:
This isn't really "HerO's" build. I've seen many koreans do this blindly every game of PvP for many months. You also have poor information in the vs DT section, as most players nowadays do a form of a DT expand, not a DT allin as you seem to have assumed.

There's also a few variations of early WG builds than can give the zealot/sentry/zealot/sentry a hard time, for instance a 2 zeal 2 stalker 2 gate, or other similar openings.


Can just pull a few probes to deal with this, building a pylon at the top of ramp to partially wall also helps pretty greatly at denying any probes from getting up your ramp.
"Hoodor" -Hodor
Old Post

 
 DarkblueRH   United States. July 08 2012 03:48. Posts 141
Profile # 

On July 07 2012 18:44 Belial88 wrote:
I don't know PvP, but this is an amazing guide in terms of formatting quality and post clarity. Awesome. may need some more reps though (have a rep for each build order and how to react to it would be cool)


Thank you ^^. I was actually writing this at 5am last night so I was worried that I'd possibly have come off sounding quite stupidly. Glad that is not the case. I need to update the post to create a more polished product through reading all of these responses and acquiring more replays.

@ThaReckoning - Yes, I would love some of your replays and any replays of anyone who can solve the problems which have been addressed in all of the response posts. Vs Aggressive 4gate and vs Agressive 2gate play is my prime priority at the moment. (Agressive 2gate meaning they're chrono-ing out 2 zealots and like 3-5 stalkers and trying to bust your ramp like THIS.)

----

To combat the criticisms, I am not assuming that HerO is the originator of this build. I merely titled the build in the manner proposed because 1) more people will read this post specifically because a pro player's name is in the title. And 2) HerO was the first player I had personally seen use the SPECIFIC build order of snagging the 2gas before cyber while opening with Stargate. Not only that, Day[9] has a daily showing HerO's variation and the only replay I had available at the time of creating the post was of HerO. My apologies for not taking the time to research who could have possibly been the originator of the build but I had figured it was quite irrelevant. Which indeed it is quite irrelevant.

@Xujhan - 1 gate Stargate on maps without a secondary ramp at the natural or if your opponent just brings 2 probes to build pylons actually should just die to a well executed 4gate as your only real defense (if I'm thinking of the same build) is to deny pylons being built next to your ramp because you won't have enough FF to completely force them out of your base, you need to FF them in and kill units. The 1gate Stargate build I'm referring to is THIS.

@CecilSunkure - If they're expanding with DT's you should most definitely be able to scout that fact, and then expand yourself while creating the mentioned wall at your natural as opposed to on top of your main's ramp. - I've updated the original post with this.

@Braric & Ranged - Please help me provide replays. I believe the two of you are absolutely correct with your counter-arguments to criticisms. But I'd prefer to not simply tell someone, but SHOW them.
RelentlessHeroes.com
Old Post

 
 CecilSunkure   United States. July 08 2012 03:58. Posts 2216
Profile Blog # 

On July 08 2012 02:35 Braric wrote:

Show nested quote +



Can just pull a few probes to deal with this, building a pylon at the top of ramp to partially wall also helps pretty greatly at denying any probes from getting up your ramp.


Probes don't need to get up the ramp. Also any time probes are pulled it means there's a great chance you'll fall behind. Pulling probes is not the "proper" reaction.


On July 08 2012 03:48 DarkblueRH wrote:
@CecilSunkure - If they're expanding with DT's you should most definitely be able to scout that fact, and then expand yourself while creating the mentioned wall at your natural as opposed to on top of your main's ramp. - I've updated the original post with this.

Ah thanks
Last edit: 2012-07-08 03:59:33
http://bit.ly/HJBjgK - Free RTS I dev'd!
Old Post

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