| IcemanAsi Israel. July 08 2012 06:03. Posts 158 | Profile # |
Hi all,
This retains to a recent pro-match I don't want to spoil so it's all in spoiler
+ Show Spoiler +The game in question is Nestea versus Supernova game 3. http://www.gomtv.net/2012gsls3/vod/67586/?set=15&lang=Nestea goes: 9 pool 10 scout 11 OV *All lings + pull all but 2 drones. Now in this game the scouting drone reaches the terran base at 2:15 exactly the moment the terran is dropping the CC 1st, only when the CC goes down does nestea make the lings. ( Timing is amazingly slick on this ) My question is as follows - What does nestea do if there is a rax 1st? He hasn't commited to lings yet, but should he? Or does he go early queen for something like an 11/18 - compensating the late hatch with early queen? Or is it better to make a single round of lings to do any kind of damage?
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| oOOoOphidian United States. July 08 2012 09:57. Posts 1235 | Profile # |
| You can transition somewhat, especially if you get lucky to force a cancel on a CC or kill some scvs and marines. With good micro or simply a wall off / no low ground CC, it's nearly impossible to recover for the zerg, though. |
| | http://www.twitch.tv/ooooophidian |
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| ItchyLegs Canada. July 08 2012 10:12. Posts 367 | Profile # |
wut
it's a meta game thing... that is all. he figured supernova would CC first. He did. There is no discussion to be had - if you don't get lucky vs cc first you lose. |
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| TheGreenMachine United States. July 08 2012 10:35. Posts 693 | Profile # |
Nestea knew his opponent would do a CC first that is the only reason he went for 9 pool. Vs anything else terran does it will get shut down hard. Its kind of like 9 pooling vs a person who goes hatch first every single game.
You "could" play from behind if he went pool first but you are pretty damn far behind if he doesn't do the build you hope for. |
| | Don't forget to get everyone you know to play HOTS so this game we love called Starcraft will live on. Every little bit helps. ^^ |
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| lhr0909 United States. July 08 2012 10:54. Posts 531 | Profile Blog # |
| i guess that is what the 10 scout is for. If there is no wall off, pull drones; if there is a wall, you just have to say "fuck me" then move on and try to buy time with the lings you make while try to pull yourself back up. At least thats how I think about it. |
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| Salivanth Australia. July 08 2012 11:08. Posts 815 | Profile Blog # |
| An "all-in transition" is a contradiction in terms. |
| | <@Wikt> so you are one of those nega-fans <@Wikt> that hates the company that makes a game and everything they stand for <@Wikt> but still plays the game <@Wikt> (like roughly 30% of blizzard's player base, maybe much more...) |
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| Caissa United States. July 08 2012 11:38. Posts 21 | Profile Blog # |
Nestea then just starts spamming queens with the early pool, make a couple more drones, and expands.
The more queens he has early game will completely shit on early pressure, but hes behind economically. I think its a Great addition, you can all in vs greedy terran for INSTA-win or just transition into slightly later timings with better creep spread, although you need to macro perfectly to keep up with the terran |
| | Don't underestimate the value of Doing Nothing, of just going along, listening to all the things you can't hear, and not bothering. |
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 cmcnutt34 United States. July 08 2012 11:42. Posts 43 | Profile # |
| I believe this is beta worthy discussion material. |
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| Mrvoodoochild1 United States. July 08 2012 12:00. Posts 1434 | Profile # |
| this only works against a terran that cc firsts. If the terran just does a regular one rax expand, It's just an autoloss. No need to discuss this anymore. |
| | "let your freak flag fly" |
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| xTrim July 08 2012 13:07. Posts 471 | Profile # |
of course this is theory crafting, but im pretty sure its an autoloss vs anything besides cc first:
1. from a gas build, terran will just bombard your door with hellions cauz your natural hatch will be very late... it should be too much to handle without going roaches (delaying you even further) or many spines
2. from a 1 rax cc terran can make any 10 mins timing that zerg should not be able to hold... or if so, zerg will be so behind due to not making drones |
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| SC2John United States. July 08 2012 13:08. Posts 916 | Profile # |
I mean, I kind of agree that this autowins against CC first, but makes life really hard against rax first. It's a metagame strategy.
But even then, if a terran goes rax first, it might be possible to perhaps do an evo chamber bomb, and then just run up into the base with your all-in as the evo chamber explodes. I know this is a long shot, but I think it might have the best outcome for the "oh shit, my opponent didn't ACTUALLY go CC first" scenario.Last edit: 2012-07-08 13:14:09 |
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| Insomni7 July 08 2012 13:37. Posts 595 | Profile # |
| I have found that a queen will give you far more larvae than you can spend that early. I would prefer just to make drones. You can take a risk if you think they are gonna go 1 supply depot CC and make the lings anyway, but if they wall with the second supply depot, its just gonna set you farther back. |
| | "Lay the egg, become the god" |
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| BigRedDog July 08 2012 13:38. Posts 95 | Profile # |
Doesn't the evo chamber requires you to build a Hatchery first? That will take 300 minerals. If you are going 9 pool, would there be enough minerals for that?
The only way is if your scout drone can spot the starting area and save 300 for the hatch and evo chamber, then build the pool. Which will by the time you have your 6 zling pop out, the evo will be done....
Will the spot where the ramp have enough space to build the hatch? Most ramps are narrow and with a depot built, it is hard to build a hatch.
It is a gamble. If the t goes one base wall in, then better to save the 6 zling, play defensive and catch up game.
On July 08 2012 13:08 SC2John wrote:
But even then, if a terran goes rax first, it might be possible to perhaps do an evo chamber bomb, and then just run up into the base with your all-in as the evo chamber explodes. I know this is a long shot, but I think it might have the best outcome for the "oh shit, my opponent didn't ACTUALLY go CC first" scenario.
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| Kryptonite United States. July 08 2012 14:30. Posts 155 | Profile # |
Personally this is how I see it.
Situation A: CC First
- Rally lings, bring drones (leave 3 behind) and get free win
Situation B: 1 Rax (no gas)
- Build 6 lings, force possible cancel/delay a low ground CC or do possible damage by killing SCVs or delaying mining time (if you see he doesn't scout after Rax, build 1 more pair of Lings for a total of 8).
- Hatch @ 18 supply and macro from there
Situation C: 1 Rax + Gas (fuck...)
- Drone, get a Queen, and Hatch @ 18 supply and attempt to play a standard game from behind. It's not AS bad as people would think because you will have an earlier Queen than normal so you will have extra larva from earlier injects. |
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| Trogdor89 United States. July 08 2012 14:49. Posts 11 | Profile # |
I used to 11 overpool/18 hatch against terran a lot (when proxy 2rax was a lot more common), and can say that you can econ just fine behind it (you are somewhat pigeonholed into gasless 4 queen, but that's not the worst thing in the world). Obviously the 9 pool is going to be a bit less economical, but it shouldn't be by too much.
There's a reason Nestea sent the drone scout- if there was no transition against rax first, then there's no point to him sending it. |
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| SC2John United States. July 08 2012 16:15. Posts 916 | Profile # |
On July 08 2012 13:38 BigRedDog wrote:
Doesn't the evo chamber requires you to build a Hatchery first? That will take 300 minerals. If you are going 9 pool, would there be enough minerals for that?
The only way is if your scout drone can spot the starting area and save 300 for the hatch and evo chamber, then build the pool. Which will by the time you have your 6 zling pop out, the evo will be done....
Will the spot where the ramp have enough space to build the hatch? Most ramps are narrow and with a depot built, it is hard to build a hatch.
Played around with the build a little. There's no way you can build hatchery BEFORE spawning pool...that would totally defeat the purpose of the strategy. I simply just saved after spawning pool was completed, had evo chamber up before the first marine popped out. It delays the first 6 zerglings though, which might be problematic. Possible adjustment, skip a drone.
The area is kind of narrow, but it's fine. All you need is the broodlings near his ramp...also will block a bunker on that side of the wall. It was just an idea if you were to use this strategy as literally an all-in (which is how I think it should be played). |
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| HeavOnEarth United States. July 08 2012 16:49. Posts 6627 | Profile Blog # |
oo i might steal this build. thanks dude!
Also to answer your questions he would just double queen drone expo and play from behind vs 1rax openings
one advantage is that he can deny scouting forever with the quick creep and queens, so it may transition well to a 2gas roach bane all in. (?) im unsure, but im sure nestea would have a sick follow up planned 
Also terrans would never expect such an early pool .. and then no lings so theres not much room for abuse , although if terran knew obviously he could lean on the zerg early with his advantage for an auto win possibly, but is unlikely
i didn't watch the vod, but perhaps if he scouts the terran main and sees the scv count and makes lings this build would shut down a proxy 11/11 very well . Sometimes u can identify that a terran only has cc first or 11-11 open in their "range" of builds . this build would be great for such players
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| | "come korea next time... FXO house... 10 korean, 10 korean" |
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| Siggeh Norway. July 08 2012 17:12. Posts 66 | Profile # |
Sounds interesting.
This build can take wins from 2 builds (standard TvZ builds on ladder)
- Which is:
-CC first and
-1 rax -> CC
The drone scouts cc first --> pull the drones and win
The drone scouts 1 rax no gas --> don't pull drones and force cancel on cc with only lings... but from this point ..will the zerg be behind or ahead? |
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| HeavOnEarth United States. July 08 2012 17:36. Posts 6627 | Profile Blog # |
The drone scouts 1 rax no gas --> don't pull drones and force cancel on cc with only lings... but from this point ..will the zerg be behind or ahead?
still behind imo, and honestly 1rax cc, marines + scvs could deny the 6-8lings from even doing that
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| | "come korea next time... FXO house... 10 korean, 10 korean" |
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| Mahtasooma Germany. July 08 2012 22:45. Posts 374 | Profile # |
"all-in transition" should tip you off. Read that again. Loudly.
See?
There can never be a transition off of an all-in. |
| | http://twitch.tv/mahtasooma |
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