Hello everyone, I've decided to make a video discussing my thoughts, opinions, and suggestions regarding the Diablo III end-game. After seeing both Kripparian's and Athene's videos on the matter, I felt obliged to make one myself. Feel free to leave your feedback here or in the comments of the YouTube video, I'm just curious to hear what you all think in responses.
In short, I talk about how there is a lack of end-game (no, Inferno is not end-game, I said this last September!), and what can potentially be added to alleviate this issue. For example, Pandemonium events for PvE, a Competitive PvP, and ladders for both. I explain them in much more detail in the video.
Originally I only intended on doing one of these videos, but after the positive feedback and discussion that came out of my first video, I decided to do one covering the current issues with the Magic Find system. I very quickly talk about the five (essentially six) options Blizzard laid out in their blog post and then offer up my own [seventh] solution.
tl;dr *Option 1: Solves gear swapping. Kills min/maxing. *Options 2/3/4: All MF over time can all be gamed (gear swapping still exists). *Option 5: Has non-MF related problems and can all be gamed (gear swapping still exists). *Option 6: Gear swap button, this doesn't solve the problem, it encourages it. *Option 7 (my option): Re-implement the talisman, charms, and the Mystic. Remove MF/GF from all items and only allow them to spawn on charms. Allow the Mystic to enhance our items with MF/GF and potentially craft charms.
Diablo III Analyst for Team EG, Fansite Admin of SC2Mapster / SC2Replayed, Battle.net Forum MVP
Sek-Kuar Czech Republic. July 09 2012 18:49. Posts 509
How does #1 solve mf swap please elaborate - imho it only makes it easier since you dont have to swap that many items... Instead of having full gear in inventory, you can have amu+helm+2more and swap only that...
#1 actually makes this issue even bigger. Players already used to this have even less reason tu upgrade gear, because swaping to get max MF becames a lot easier.
Or do you honestly believe that all swappers already have 100+ mf base gear? I hardly think so, most I know have like 0-20 at best, so they would still continue swapping after this "fix" it would just make it easier and much stronger (because max mf would be there with most of DPS/survivability gear on left).
But Im listening to your arguments
Also, point of MF is to get more items - which translates into killing faster. Saying that #2 can be gamed is at best theoreticaly true, but in reality its very wrong statement. If you would have to wait lets say 200*3 seconds... Yea it can be "gamed" but it solves problem 100%. Running around most bosses for 10 min with extra low survivability is very hard and I doubt worth it any any case, and champs+rares regenerate in like 10 sec + there is enrage timer keke? Please be more realistic, even 30 sec time one would have to wait is pretty much solution...
So please give real game example, or I simply can not consider this none but useless theory with no relation to real game.
EDIT: About your solution, what exactly would fix charms swap? Just out of curiosity, moving one problem on different place isnt always solution... Players could be still swapping, just different items on different places.
Not to mention that removing MF from items would decrease already very low item customiztion in D3... D2 was much bigger in this, different builds were looking for different stats even item types (see, in D2 magic items were good, so people were using them not just because the couldnt affor better rares + D2 had crafted items, not like in D3 that has only rare items that were crafted, but they arent really nothing but rare items). In D3, players are pretty much already looking for same items no matter build or class, so removing pretty much last possible item customization option is like - WTF?
Last edit: 2012-07-09 19:13:11
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Charms were taken out for a reason. Stacking a ton of charms wastes inventory space. IIRC, one of the problems that the devs mentioned about MF swapping is that the gear takes up one whole line in the inventory. They don't want the whole damn inventory to be cluttered with stuff to "maximize" your gear.
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Sixen United States. July 09 2012 19:29. Posts 116
On July 09 2012 18:49 Sek-Kuar wrote: How does #1 solve mf swap please elaborate - imho it only makes it easier since you dont have to swap that many items... Instead of having full gear in inventory, you can have amu+helm+2more and swap only that...
#1 actually makes this issue even bigger. Players already used to this have even less reason tu upgrade gear, because swaping to get max MF becames a lot easier.
Or do you honestly believe that all swappers already have 100+ mf base gear? I hardly think so, most I know have like 0-20 at best, so they would still continue swapping after this "fix" it would just make it easier and much stronger (because max mf would be there with most of DPS/survivability gear on left).
It'd essentially make you min/max your current items to hit the cap. If the cap is only 100%, they only really need 25% MF from items, assuming 75% from NV... And even that 25% can be completely offset with a Fortune shrine.
On July 09 2012 18:49 Sek-Kuar wrote: Also, point of MF is to get more items - which translates into killing faster. Saying that #2 can be gamed is at best theoreticaly true, but in reality its very wrong statement. If you would have to wait lets say 200*3 seconds... Yea it can be "gamed" but it solves problem 100%. Running around most bosses for 10 min with extra low survivability is very hard and I doubt worth it any any case, and champs+rares regenerate in like 10 sec + there is enrage timer keke? Please be more realistic, even 30 sec time one would have to wait is pretty much solution...
So please give real game example, or I simply can not consider this none but useless theory with no relation to real game. I'm not saying it's efficient, I'm saying it's doable. If I'm at a boss battle and I need to wait a few minutes to maximize my drops, I might. Well, I personally wouldn't but others might.
On July 09 2012 18:49 Sek-Kuar wrote: EDIT: About your solution, what exactly would fix charms swap? Just out of curiosity, moving one problem on different place isnt always solution... Players could be still swapping, just different items on different places.
You wouldn't be swapping charms, you'd have charms set in stone. Maybe having certain affixes on charms would encourage swapping charms instead, so they could just restrict certain affixes from spawning on charms.
On July 09 2012 18:49 Sek-Kuar wrote: Not to mention that removing MF from items would decrease already very low item customiztion in D3... D2 was much bigger in this, different builds were looking for different stats even item types (see, in D2 magic items were good, so people were using them not just because the couldnt affor better rares + D2 had crafted items, not like in D3 that has only rare items that were crafted, but they arent really nothing but rare items). In D3, players are pretty much already looking for same items no matter build or class, so removing pretty much last possible item customization option is like - WTF?
I wouldn't consider MF gear customization...
On July 09 2012 18:54 Heh_ wrote: Charms were taken out for a reason. Stacking a ton of charms wastes inventory space. IIRC, one of the problems that the devs mentioned about MF swapping is that the gear takes up one whole line in the inventory. They don't want the whole damn inventory to be cluttered with stuff to "maximize" your gear.
Charms in Diablo III do not take up inventory space, as I explain in the video.
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You wouldn't be swapping charms, you'd have charms set in stone. Maybe having certain affixes on charms would encourage swapping charms instead, so they could just restrict certain affixes from spawning on charms.
If I remember correctly, they said 100-200 MF cap. 100 cap is essentially equal to removing MF from game (which can technically be called solution to all MF related stuff), with closer to 200% cap problem would became even bigger as I explained.
Either way, it can not be called solution, unless you really want to say that removing part of game is solving something.
I'm not saying it's efficient, I'm saying it's doable. If I'm at a boss battle and I need to wait a few minutes to maximize my drops, I might. Well, I personally wouldn't but others might.
While I share your passion to look for "perfect" solution, I think you should try to be little more realistic - problem with current situation is that mf swap gives better results than proper play... If someone want to exploit game feature to get worse results, it might be sad he can, but nvm - he has worse results.
So #2 can not actually be gamed in reality, and its pretty much best solution. It would make mf swap so useless that it wouldnt matter anymore that people can do so.
You wouldn't be swapping charms, you'd have charms set in stone. Maybe having certain affixes on charms would encourage swapping charms instead, so they could just restrict certain affixes from spawning on charms.
AFAIK you didnt explain this in video, so I dont know what you mean. Set in stone like you can not ever change them, even if you find better?
And MF customization.. I consider this real. There are still people who build chars around balanced MF/DPS/Survivability, if you take MF out of equation, it will reduce already low numbers of things players need to take into accout when searching for gear and balancing char, so imho it is customization.
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On July 09 2012 18:54 Heh_ wrote: Charms were taken out for a reason. Stacking a ton of charms wastes inventory space. IIRC, one of the problems that the devs mentioned about MF swapping is that the gear takes up one whole line in the inventory. They don't want the whole damn inventory to be cluttered with stuff to "maximize" your gear.
theres just no way they could make a separate tab in the inventory devoted to charms right? that would be rediculous
As long as charms give only 1 specific stat each they would provide good additional customization since every other damn slots can roll with every single stat you'd want simultaneously.
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AngelusDeLetum United States. July 13 2012 08:55. Posts 95
How i understand it is your charm would be a dedicated item and slot to magic/gold find... this might be nice plus you could get more complicated with bonuses vs certain types of enemies or areas...
Adding more stats sticks...? Lame. They could randomize monster spawning seed like they did for A5 nm/hell in D2. Meaning you can encounter any combination of mobs in inferno instead of the same mobs every time.
They could and should increase the strenght of regular mobs, while decreasing a little the strenght of champions. Bosses should be harder and at the same time more forgiving on some of their attacks.
Fix the lag...?
Fix the talents and spells? Its all recycling atm and it makes me sick how little imagination these people who designed the game have.
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Dbars United States. July 13 2012 09:07. Posts 272
these are all nice ideas. But videos and thesis sized posts have been written 10000 times already. If blizzard actually did any of these i would fear the world would end.
On July 09 2012 18:54 Heh_ wrote: Charms were taken out for a reason. Stacking a ton of charms wastes inventory space. IIRC, one of the problems that the devs mentioned about MF swapping is that the gear takes up one whole line in the inventory. They don't want the whole damn inventory to be cluttered with stuff to "maximize" your gear.
theres just no way they could make a separate tab in the inventory devoted to charms right? that would be rediculous
And then people would never charm swap, right? right???
There are two main issues with ladder, which is why I don't see it working. Keep in mind both these issues are only there because Blizzard caused them to be there, the idea of having a ladder in the game is good.
1 - It completely screws anyone who used RMAH. While some people will still use it, the amount of people will definately be reduced by a lot. Blizzard obviously does not want this, as they get money for everyone that uses the RMAH.
2 - Top of the ladder is too easy to reach. Level 99 took forever and like you said, very few people actually reached it. Many people have reached level 60, and a good portion of those players have already beaten inferno.
Other than that I agree with what you said. I felt the same way about inferno too when I heard they tried to pass it off as the end game. Still don't see how they actually thought that was true.
jarhead271 United States. July 13 2012 10:24. Posts 152
Over time I have slowly come to the conclusion that MF as a stat on gear is not a good idea. It's taken me a while to realize this because that's what we lived with for so long in D2, and it didn't seem to be as big of an issue then.
A good portion of all affixes are situational. Fire resist when fighting a mob that deals no fire damage provides no benefit. Swapping out a piece of gear for more fire resist when you encounter a fire-damage enemy is a strategic choice. I think we are all Ok with this kind of swapping. It's not gimmicky, and the benefit from that decision lasts for the duration of the entire fight. The thing with MF, as it currently is, is that you only get the benefit from that stat the moment you deal the killing blow. If something is that incredibly situational in needs to be reevaluated IMO. Swapping gear for MF feels gimmicky, and frankly, is a pain in the ass. I don't see it as a strategic decision.
I agree that MF should not be an afix that *spawns* on gear. I definitely like the idea of being able to enchant existing gear with a MF bonus. This would add a nice gold sink, and the MF stat would never take the place of something more beneficial. However, there is still an issue with swapping here. If I enchant a nice helm, but l later find a slightly better helm, I could save the expense of enchanting the new helm by simply swapping in the old one at the killing blow. I've thought about making the enchants temporary, so enchanting the new helm would make sense cost-wise. However, I'm not sure this makes complete sense either. At that point, why even tie it to gear? Just have the enchant exist on your person.
I also like the idea of charms contributing to MF, and the separate "charm inventory" is a cool idea. However, this could potentially also lead to swapping issues. Why wouldn't I swap out my +crit charms for +MF charms at the killing blow? Some solutions could be:
1) There is a set number of MF-only charm slots. This could be extended to other ideas, such as talismans, or whatever you want to call them. The idea is that the only stat on these items is MF. There would never be an incentive to swap them.
2) Charms can't be placed in your regular inventory. Just like weapons cannot be placed in your charm inventory, charms only live in your charm inventory. When you pick up a charm it goes directly to the charm inventory. Charm inventory full? Guess you need a town run. This behavior is no different than your normal inventory. Granted this means if you want to pick up charms off the ground, your charm inventory cannot always be 100% full, but making a town run when one drops or simply leaving one slot open at all times doesn't sound too obsurd. The point of all this is that if charms can't be placed in your regular inv. then there is no way for swapping to occur.
Overall I tend to lean toward the second charm solution. I can't think of a situation where MF on gear would not lead to swapping at some point.
Last edit: 2012-07-13 10:26:08
hyped United States. July 13 2012 15:14. Posts 134
First you say that Option 1 would reduce min/max potential, and I agree with you here. Min/maxing is something I enjoy and I think other players do too. But when you talk about your charm solution you say that MF/GF affixes on charms would not compete with any other affixes? This is essentially the same as an MF cap.
Options 2-5 on the other hand encourage min/maxing:
The player can decide to mf swap and wait for their mf over time to rise, or they can decide that maybe they would increase their rares per minute in the long run if they sacrificed some survivability/damage and ran in a well rounded set that includes mf on some or all pieces.
jarhead271 United States. July 13 2012 15:18. Posts 152
On July 13 2012 09:47 killa_robot wrote: There are two main issues with ladder, which is why I don't see it working. Keep in mind both these issues are only there because Blizzard caused them to be there, the idea of having a ladder in the game is good.
1 - It completely screws anyone who used RMAH. While some people will still use it, the amount of people will definately be reduced by a lot. Blizzard obviously does not want this, as they get money for everyone that uses the RMAH.
2 - Top of the ladder is too easy to reach. Level 99 took forever and like you said, very few people actually reached it. Many people have reached level 60, and a good portion of those players have already beaten inferno.
Other than that I agree with what you said. I felt the same way about inferno too when I heard they tried to pass it off as the end game. Still don't see how they actually thought that was true.
The other issue with ladder is the current 10 character limit. What happens when the season ends and people are already at their character cap? Does that ladder character just get deleted? Part of the appeal of ladder was that after the season ended you knew your character would persist. It didn't feel like that 6 months of work was for nothing.
Arguably, now that every character of a class is identical to any other, saving the character itself is not that big of a deal. If I was already at my cap I probably wouldn't care if the character got deleted, but there needs to be something to make people feel like their accomplishments mean something after the season ends. They could do this with achievements and retaining past season stats, which is meh... ok I guess. This is basically how SC2 works, and it tends to work, but what is considered "accomplishment" is not the same between the two games. D2 had an easy ranking system: your level. In D3 I'm not seeing an obvious way to rank players that is actually meaningful. Maybe that will change once the "end game solutions" are in place.
To add some persistence, I think it would be cool if you could off-load your gear to your "open" characters. Hell, even stamp it with some kind of text, something like "Jarhead#1138 -- Season I. Rank 1337". Not only would that be cool way down the road ("Hey, check it out. I just traded for this 5 year-old season 1 Skull Grasp. This thing's been around forever!"), but it would give that player something to take with him/her after the season ended.
BurningSera United Kingdom. July 13 2012 15:35. Posts 5189
