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| TangSC Canada. July 10 2012 01:28. Posts 1610 | Profile Blog # |
Hello Ladies and Gentlemen of Team Liquid!
As the title suggests, I would like to discuss the topic of replay analysis. Everyone knows the importance of reviewing replays, but my interest is in a more structured/systematic approach. I have come up with what I believe are the three most important criteria that are crucial to replay analysis, as well as a means of "marking" or "grading" performance. The goal is to point out the biggest problem areas in one's play, so that an appropriate amount of time/effort can be spent improving these areas. Here is a stream video explaining the system, with some sample replay analysis:
Platinum Zerg vs Protoss Replay Analysis
I'm excited to hear your opinions and insights, and look forward to a positive discussion about how this system can be built on and improved. Here are the three points that I focus on when I review a replay:
1) Economy Management - Fully saturating bases (16+ Drones), double-mining all mineral patches, droning and expanding at appropriate times, producing overlords, avoiding supply blocks, keeping larva below 3, maintaining low queen energy.
2) Scouting/Map Vision - Determine opponent's composition, spot outside opponent's base and at possible expansions, rally overlords to "hot spots", hold the Xel-Naga towers.
3) Unit Composition/Control - Choose an appropriate composition based on scouting information, matchup, and spawn locations. - Control units as effectively as possible.
Personally, when assigning a "grade" for each of these criteria, I give either an "A", "B", or "C":
A) Perfect - Master+ level execution, few/no mistakes.
B) Satisfactory - Performance matches your skill level or slightly better (ie. a platinum-level player playing at platinum/diamond level). Some mistakes that could be improved, but this area should not be the focus of your practice.
C) Needs Improvement - There were lots of mistakes and this is an area of your play that is holding you back. Significant time/effort should be put into this.
Poll: What is your opinion on this style of replay analysis?It's a great approach that I think will help players improve. (12) 52% You're way off base and wasting time. "More GG, More Skill" (8) 35% It's a start, but I have a few suggestions to make it better (Comment Below) (3) 13% 23 total votes Your vote: What is your opinion on this style of replay analysis? (Vote): It's a great approach that I think will help players improve. (Vote): It's a start, but I have a few suggestions to make it better (Comment Below) (Vote): You're way off base and wasting time. "More GG, More Skill"
Thank you all - I sincerely appreciate your time!
- TangLast edit: 2012-07-10 22:30:13 |
| | Coaching TangStarcraft.com | Team All-Inspiration.com | Stream Twitch.TV/TangSC |
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Vralaren Sweden. July 10 2012 01:37. Posts 129 | Profile # | |
| | Its like stealing candy from.... Someone u steal candy from! -LiquidSheth♥ |
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| Mahtasooma Germany. July 10 2012 02:08. Posts 374 | Profile # |
"Spending" is also very relevant because virtually everyone can work on that.
It's as simple as:
Haz money? Check. Haz larvae? Check. Not saving money for anything (like mutas)? Check. (Haz supply is irrelevant because there should always be supply)
Then why aren't you building stuff. ==> Get more apm / spending awareness.Last edit: 2012-07-10 02:09:04 |
| | http://twitch.tv/mahtasooma |
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| TangSC Canada. July 10 2012 02:11. Posts 1610 | Profile Blog # |
On July 10 2012 02:08 Mahtasooma wrote: "Spending" is also very relevant because virtually everyone can work on that.
It's as simple as:
Haz money? Check. Haz larvae? Check. Not saving money for anything (like mutas)? Check. (Haz supply is irrelevant because there should always be supply)
Then why aren't you building stuff. ==> Get more apm / spending awareness.
Very good point, especially larva production - I updated "Economy Management" to include larva. Thanks very much for the suggestion! |
| | Coaching TangStarcraft.com | Team All-Inspiration.com | Stream Twitch.TV/TangSC |
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| ImVirus Sweden. July 10 2012 03:26. Posts 22 | Profile # |
I find this very useful! Keep 'em coming, Tang ^_^ |
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| GregMandel France. July 10 2012 03:29. Posts 573 | Profile Blog # |
| As a Zerg Plat player that has almost no clue about what to look for when watching my replays : Thank you kind sir :D |
| | http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RD8QLNiolfk - Racing with the sun |
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| Sianos July 10 2012 03:40. Posts 528 | Profile # |
On July 10 2012 02:11 TangSC wrote:
Very good point, especially larva production - I updated "Economy Management" to include larva. Thanks very much for the suggestion!
I would make it different. Not only saying keep your larva low, but also saying having less then 10 energy on each queens or something like that.
To the rating. B 'Matches your skilllevel or slightly better' is a bit too undetailed in my opinion. If you say something like this you have to include a table with benchmarks for all skilllevels or it isn´t really usefull. Instead i would say to B: 'Performing better or equal than your opponent'. This is something you can actually check while watching the replay and don´t change, because of the player get better.
Last edit: 2012-07-10 03:44:47 |
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| TangSC Canada. July 10 2012 04:32. Posts 1610 | Profile Blog # |
On July 10 2012 03:40 Sianos wrote: Show nested quote +On July 10 2012 02:11 TangSC wrote:
Very good point, especially larva production - I updated "Economy Management" to include larva. Thanks very much for the suggestion!
I would make it different. Not only saying keep your larva low, but also saying having less then 10 energy on each queens or something like that. To the rating. B 'Matches your skilllevel or slightly better' is a bit too undetailed in my opinion. If you say something like this you have to include a table with benchmarks for all skilllevels or it isn´t really usefull. Instead i would say to B: 'Performing better or equal than your opponent'. This is something you can actually check while watching the replay and don´t change, because of the player get better.
I like your idea to be more precise with the queen energy / larva. I also see what you mean with the rating "B". I chose to only have three grades because it's a more general way of saying "a) This is perfect and you don't need to worry about it, b) this is decent and doesn't need to be your focus, c) this is a trouble area." I think going by skill level (i.e. platinum/diamond, etc) is a bit easier than going by your opponent's performance, simply because you'd have to analyze yours and your opponent's economy, composition, scouting, etc. |
| | Coaching TangStarcraft.com | Team All-Inspiration.com | Stream Twitch.TV/TangSC |
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| Sianos July 10 2012 15:06. Posts 528 | Profile # |
| Yes, its easier, but how do you know that it matches your skilllevel without specific benchmarks or other information? |
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| 13JackaL United States. July 10 2012 15:33. Posts 558 | Profile # |
i like your guide, do one for terran please  |
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| Danglars United States. July 10 2012 15:51. Posts 1921 | Profile Blog # |
Needs ETA As Belial mentions from this theoretical basis
This is not some ambiguous thread. It's extremely useful. If you are on 3 bases vs 2, or 5 bases vs 3, your "E" is good. Now, work on on Tech and Army. If you lost a stupid game even though you were way ahead in econ, check the army values when you lost the game. Chances are, you were way behind in army value, and 1k less in roaches will never beat a higher value army of colossi, +3 upgrades, etc.
Basically, once you've secured your third, and held off that Toss aggression with such a huge lead, you no longer need to focus on your econ. You already have more bases. You don't need more drones, especially once you've reached 70. You need to match what Toss is doing. Match your tech, to his tech. Match your army, to his army. With a higher econ, but even army and tech, there is no way to lose. Too many times, people lose because of their 6 bases vs a 2 or 3 base Toss, because they only have roaches against sentry/colossi/blink/upgraded deathball. Unless you have lots of mutas and Toss doesn't have 3 bases with HT and lots of blink stalkers, you will never beat colossi without broodlord tech.
How crucial is not throwing away the game in ZvP when you have a small advantage you cannot capitalize on immediately? Very crucial. What kind of weighting can this have in a grade? Questionable.
Did the zerg "read" the economical advantage (You might say Economy Management success) and turn it into tech or army?
Otherwise, mostly good. Just to make it "Z Focused," as you say in title (Z), you gotta address a principly zerg concern. You can deny a Protoss's third for ages and still lose the game in a gray area bleeding into Unit Composition. Aka:+ Show Spoiler +
EDIT: Guess what I'm mostly saying to TANG is: Zergs, more than the other races, have a late midgame/lategame consideration that is peculiar by comparison.Last edit: 2012-07-10 16:19:38 |
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| D4V3Z02 Germany. July 10 2012 15:57. Posts 570 | Profile # |
| I know my mistakes most of the time instantly after the game, I normally don't need replays. Also your "ABC system" sounds pretty much like ABC analysis which you learn in business economic classes so I would prolly think over that term, lol. Last edit: 2012-07-10 15:58:56 |
| | Reason your quotes please. |
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| Poffel July 10 2012 16:04. Posts 307 | Profile # |
A couple of comments...
Economy management should include expanding in an appropriate manner.
Maybe a fourth criterion should be something like "reaction time", maybe it could also be included in your second category as "map presence". At least for me, knowing when your opponent expands and delaying it are two different pair of shoes; likewise, just because a drop passes an overlord unfortunately doesn't automatically shut it down. (But maybe that's just me because I'm terrible at watching the minimap.)
The A-B-C-rating seems undercomplex to me. I get that you want to keep things simple, but, firstly, A and C are absolute criteria, while B is relative. Secondly, what is "satisfactory" for any given level of play if "few to no mistakes" indicates mastery? Last, how do you deal with the common assumption (that I share by the way) that a 1-A-rating according to your scale would be sufficient to reach (low) master league, even if the standards regarding 2 and 3 are deficient? |
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| imBLIND United States. July 10 2012 16:06. Posts 1809 | Profile Blog # |
These 3 things the OP mentioned are basically the only things that anyone should ever be looking at. If this wasn't common knowledge before, it's nice to have a thread that flat out states them.
It would be nice to including timings and to explicitly define map control. If you have a solid minute of map control, that's 1 or 2 free rounds of drones before you have to make any defensive units. If you just have vision, you have about 10 extra seconds of reaction time, but if you have units there as well, you can stall for about 15 or 20 seconds before you have to devote all your attention and resources towards defense. |
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| Clarity_nl Netherlands. July 10 2012 16:44. Posts 3283 | Profile # |
Short but concise Tang, and I agree.
Replay analysis is crucial for anyone wanting to improve efficiently, but if you don't come out of it with something specific it actually won't help much. If you watch your replay (or even if you don't) in a game where you lose, at the end of it you NEED to have a one-liner on something specific to change.
If you say: "My macro sucks, I should macro better." It won't help much, even if you know exactly what you mean. Find a specific point where you regularly supply block, or find a better way to get queues to macro while in the game! "I need to pay specific attention once I get to 33/38 supply to not get blocked" or "every time I look at my minimap I should spend my money!"
Same goes for phrases like "I should scout more" or "I need to creepspread better" Instead say "From now on after every depot/pylon/ovie I ask myself if I know what he's doing" or "After every inject I will spread creep"
They can even get crazy specific like "on this map in these positions I will scout in this pattern from now on"
If you don't come out of a replay with a line like that it's not worth it.Last edit: 2012-07-10 17:06:32 |
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| Drankme Denmark. July 10 2012 22:02. Posts 22 | Profile # |
| Thank you for this post Tang. |
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| TangSC Canada. July 10 2012 22:33. Posts 1610 | Profile Blog # |
On July 10 2012 15:06 Sianos wrote: Yes, its easier, but how do you know that it matches your skilllevel without specific benchmarks or other information?
It's hard to give specific benchmarks for each skill level between bronze-master. In fact it's really difficult to be much more specific in any way, due to such a wide range of skill levels. |
| | Coaching TangStarcraft.com | Team All-Inspiration.com | Stream Twitch.TV/TangSC |
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| TangSC Canada. July 10 2012 22:40. Posts 1610 | Profile Blog # |
On July 10 2012 16:04 Poffel wrote: A couple of comments...
Economy management should include expanding in an appropriate manner.
Maybe a fourth criterion should be something like "reaction time", maybe it could also be included in your second category as "map presence". At least for me, knowing when your opponent expands and delaying it are two different pair of shoes; likewise, just because a drop passes an overlord unfortunately doesn't automatically shut it down. (But maybe that's just me because I'm terrible at watching the minimap.)
The A-B-C-rating seems undercomplex to me. I get that you want to keep things simple, but, firstly, A and C are absolute criteria, while B is relative. Secondly, what is "satisfactory" for any given level of play if "few to no mistakes" indicates mastery? Last, how do you deal with the common assumption (that I share by the way) that a 1-A-rating according to your scale would be sufficient to reach (low) master league, even if the standards regarding 2 and 3 are deficient?
I included expanding at the appropriate times under "economy management".
I'm a bit torn on the rating system. As a master level player, it works pretty well for me when I analyse others' replays because I can gauge (roughly) whether the player is playing at, above, or below their current BNet ranking. I actually think the simplicity works in one's favor, even if occasionally a less experienced player may assign themselves or others an incorrect grade. I'd definitely be willing to discuss the grading system in more detail, and perhaps change it entirely if someone has an idea that is easy to understand and apply. |
| | Coaching TangStarcraft.com | Team All-Inspiration.com | Stream Twitch.TV/TangSC |
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