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| Suitata United States. July 10 2012 05:02. Posts 5 | Profile # |
First I would like to say that I am low diamond. My mechanics are pretty bad.
I have always had trouble dealing with zerg in the late game if I don't mess with their macro early on. After the queen buff I couldn't deal with zerg at my skill level in the same way anymore and I decided to try a mech build posted by LemonyTang here
The build is really nice, but I am not very good at executing it. The harassment requires alot of control with banshees and hellions, and my macro slips hard. Lately I started trying drops to harass the zergs around 10 minutes while building my third behind it. I messed with the unit composition of the drop until it felt most effective to me, and it's been very effective from my experience.
http://drop.sc/217617
I want to discuss this replay because the drop worked so well. I never thought that this drop could hurt my opponent so badly. Usually if I cripple or kill someone with an attack around 10 minutes it's because I did some incredibly cheesy build.
My thought process in this drop is pretty simple. If the zerg takes a third early then drop behind the minerals of the main. The reason I like to drop the main is that I can kill tech structures if the drop is very successful (in this game I kill the baneling nest just before it finishes). If there is no third I usually choose which ever base has the most movement restriction behind the minerals. I like to use a few marauders because zerglings and queens don't kill them quickly with medivac support. Also if I can position them in the chokes of the minerals, the lings are less effective while the marines kill them.
I do my best to make the drop a surprise. I use two hellions to clear the watch towers if I can and send the medivacs through the tower vision. This ensures that the drop wont be spotted by overlords, but if the zerg player takes offense to your tower stealing and sends a group of lings to the tower then they might spot your drop as it is flying over.
If there are banelings or a decent amount of roaches I don't commit to the drop. I can use the medivacs to threaten the zerg while working towards the later game at home. If he makes spore or spines then the drop threat was a success because I won't be losing anything anyway.
This replay shows how the drop is deflected by banelings but I still use it to threaten and kill overlords. (don't watch the whole thing, it's 40 minutes long and you can see the drop around 10 minutes.) http://drop.sc/217660
I wanted to ask a few questions to hear what you think about this drop.
+ Show Spoiler +
1. First, do you think the drop could be done better at a different timing with different/more upgrades or different unit comp? (for example, +1 or combat shields instead of stim)
2. How do you think I should secure my third after this drop? Planetary? Bunkers? Should I even fly my third to the minerals before I have tanks?
3. Should I drop the main, natural, or third? Should I drop two places at once?
4. What should I work on at home while dropping? Should I focus on getting a fair amount of tanks and pushing out or should I follow up more passively?
Thanks for reading my post. I hope it sparks some good discussion and I would appreciate any feedback that could help me drop zergs more effectively. |
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| MaxSteel July 10 2012 19:04. Posts 78 | Profile Blog # |
In general, 10 minute drops work extremely well.
Ever since the patch, the only strat I do vs zerg is 1 rax 2 supply FE, into a 10 min 4 medi drop timing (where the 4 medivecs are full of tanks/hellions+marines+marauders with only stim). (this also answers question 1)
It usually kills his 3rd, sometimes (though, much less) kill his main if I go for it, and works wonders vs roaches if I go tanks. I do usually kill the 3rd though, since it's the farthest I can fly unscouted.
That being said, the real problem is the followup. Lets assume you killed his 3rd and not 1st, since a compitent zerg will always have overlords by that time, and he can just position his zergling/queen/bane force under the medivecs and chase you away - like you did in the 2nd game you posted (this also answers question 3).
I, however, did watch that game, and I can tell you for certain - you'd lose very very hard had the zerg actually made Infestors. After the initial ultra wave (which should've had some infestor support, where most the infestors just cast their skills and burrow back, surviving), he should have just made a huge curruptor wave while you recover, and morph them into broodlords, while placing spores and spins at each and every one of his bases (if you saw his bank, you'd see he could do this easy). What you had would NOT work vs 10+ broodlords & 7+ infestors & some curruptors.
What I usually do right after the drop, is landing my 3rd (which should be complete aroudn the 10:40 minute mark, considering I start it at 9:00), and make another one, while making double armory+2 more starports + fusion core, and switching my first starport on to a tech lab. Make 3 BC's at a time, double Air upgrades, and more (way more) bases. At the same time, switch your first factory to Hellions, and maby even make a 2nd reac factory (since you're gonna have tons of banked minerals, one way or another), and do your best to trade hellions for workers, or simply kill zerglings and securing your 4th. Usually at 4 bases, if he hasn't killed you, you won. Just add a 4th starport. You should start Raven production at around 9 BC's, the ultimate composition is 16 BCs - 8 Ravens (+3 BC's/+1 Raven and +2 BC/+1 Raven whenever you are maxed, and can sac more SCV's/Hellions). Don't forget to build a lot of turrets under your initial BC army, so he can't just fly in currupotrs and trade. Also, do NOT forget to research HSM and Yomato. |
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| Clarity_nl Netherlands. July 10 2012 23:02. Posts 3283 | Profile # |
On July 10 2012 19:04 MaxSteel wrote:
In general, 10 minute drops work extremely well.
Ever since the patch, the only strat I do vs zerg is 1 rax 2 supply FE, into a 10 min 4 medi drop timing (where the 4 medivecs are full of tanks/hellions+marines+marauders with only stim). (this also answers question 1)
It usually kills his 3rd, sometimes (though, much less) kill his main if I go for it, and works wonders vs roaches if I go tanks. I do usually kill the 3rd though, since it's the farthest I can fly unscouted.
That being said, the real problem is the followup. Lets assume you killed his 3rd and not 1st, since a compitent zerg will always have overlords by that time, and he can just position his zergling/queen/bane force under the medivecs and chase you away - like you did in the 2nd game you posted (this also answers question 3).
I, however, did watch that game, and I can tell you for certain - you'd lose very very hard had the zerg actually made Infestors. After the initial ultra wave (which should've had some infestor support, where most the infestors just cast their skills and burrow back, surviving), he should have just made a huge curruptor wave while you recover, and morph them into broodlords, while placing spores and spins at each and every one of his bases (if you saw his bank, you'd see he could do this easy). What you had would NOT work vs 10+ broodlords & 7+ infestors & some curruptors.
What I usually do right after the drop, is landing my 3rd (which should be complete aroudn the 10:40 minute mark, considering I start it at 9:00), and make another one, while making double armory+2 more starports + fusion core, and switching my first starport on to a tech lab. Make 3 BC's at a time, double Air upgrades, and more (way more) bases. At the same time, switch your first factory to Hellions, and maby even make a 2nd reac factory (since you're gonna have tons of banked minerals, one way or another), and do your best to trade hellions for workers, or simply kill zerglings and securing your 4th. Usually at 4 bases, if he hasn't killed you, you won. Just add a 4th starport. You should start Raven production at around 9 BC's, the ultimate composition is 16 BCs - 8 Ravens (+3 BC's/+1 Raven and +2 BC/+1 Raven whenever you are maxed, and can sac more SCV's/Hellions). Don't forget to build a lot of turrets under your initial BC army, so he can't just fly in currupotrs and trade. Also, do NOT forget to research HSM and Yomato.
Your answer is a 2 base 10 min tank/hellion/marauder/marine doom drop?
Followed by a 3rd + 4th, double armory and double starport + fusion core....?
Do you happen to have a replay by any chance?Last edit: 2012-07-10 23:12:27 |
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| Suitata United States. July 11 2012 00:42. Posts 5 | Profile # |
| That 2nd replay was just to reference the 10 minute drop deflection, I did not follow it up well at all and I should have lost that game. Do you think the drop being deflected put me behind? I'm not so sure, but you are right I did play badly and only won due to my opponent being just as bad as me. |
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| MaxSteel July 11 2012 04:12. Posts 78 | Profile Blog # |
On July 10 2012 23:02 Clarity_nl wrote:Your answer is a 2 base 10 min tank/hellion/marauder/marine doom drop? Followed by a 3rd + 4th, double armory and double starport + fusion core....? Do you happen to have a replay by any chance?
Many. I'll drop a few right now:
http://drop.sc/218217 - one of the best maps to drop the 3rd. Also, didn't have to turtle to ultra-late game, managed to win with a 20 min push. If he'd fungle my army, it'd die, but I'd be able to make more BC's and Ravens instead of it.
http://drop.sc/218219 - Just the drop won the game, due to an attempted late bane bust.
http://drop.sc/218221 - Apart from some bad hellion trades, this is a pretty good demonstration of what can happen if the zerg catches you in the extremely vulnerable time when you are just building the PF wall in your base, but already got the BC army. I should've made way more CC's everywhere, but still, this is an ok replay.
PS
Even though this is dia level, I'm pretty sure the opening would work vs anybody, probably even GM, as long as they don't expect it. After all, rank doesn't make your units stronger, or the opening different.
Last edit: 2012-07-11 04:13:57 |
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| SiNKami United States. July 11 2012 04:16. Posts 1762 | Profile Blog # |
On July 10 2012 19:04 MaxSteel wrote:
In general, 10 minute drops work extremely well.
Ever since the patch, the only strat I do vs zerg is 1 rax 2 supply FE, into a 10 min 4 medi drop timing (where the 4 medivecs are full of tanks/hellions+marines+marauders with only stim). (this also answers question 1)
It usually kills his 3rd, sometimes (though, much less) kill his main if I go for it, and works wonders vs roaches if I go tanks. I do usually kill the 3rd though, since it's the farthest I can fly unscouted.
That being said, the real problem is the followup. Lets assume you killed his 3rd and not 1st, since a compitent zerg will always have overlords by that time, and he can just position his zergling/queen/bane force under the medivecs and chase you away - like you did in the 2nd game you posted (this also answers question 3).
I, however, did watch that game, and I can tell you for certain - you'd lose very very hard had the zerg actually made Infestors. After the initial ultra wave (which should've had some infestor support, where most the infestors just cast their skills and burrow back, surviving), he should have just made a huge curruptor wave while you recover, and morph them into broodlords, while placing spores and spins at each and every one of his bases (if you saw his bank, you'd see he could do this easy). What you had would NOT work vs 10+ broodlords & 7+ infestors & some curruptors.
What I usually do right after the drop, is landing my 3rd (which should be complete aroudn the 10:40 minute mark, considering I start it at 9:00), and make another one, while making double armory+2 more starports + fusion core, and switching my first starport on to a tech lab. Make 3 BC's at a time, double Air upgrades, and more (way more) bases. At the same time, switch your first factory to Hellions, and maby even make a 2nd reac factory (since you're gonna have tons of banked minerals, one way or another), and do your best to trade hellions for workers, or simply kill zerglings and securing your 4th. Usually at 4 bases, if he hasn't killed you, you won. Just add a 4th starport. You should start Raven production at around 9 BC's, the ultimate composition is 16 BCs - 8 Ravens (+3 BC's/+1 Raven and +2 BC/+1 Raven whenever you are maxed, and can sac more SCV's/Hellions). Don't forget to build a lot of turrets under your initial BC army, so he can't just fly in currupotrs and trade. Also, do NOT forget to research HSM and Yomato.
not gonna lie, I dont see this working above plat. Not trying to be disrespectful or anything. |
| | Im black. TrainerRedNA.382 "It's not about how many fights you've won, it's about who you've fought" |
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| triforks United States. July 11 2012 04:57. Posts 225 | Profile # |
| i wanna try this build so bad |
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| MaxSteel July 11 2012 06:14. Posts 78 | Profile Blog # |
On July 11 2012 04:16 LgNKami wrote:
not gonna lie, I dont see this working above plat. Not trying to be disrespectful or anything.
Only that it has been working across all ranges of EU top-plat to top-diam. Yet to face a zerg master (at least after I started using this strat), but I really can't wait til I do, especially since by then I hope to finally refine my execution during the drop (which requires a ton of apm, considering you need to both drop many structures and micro the drop at the same time window). |
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 wcr.4fun Belgium. July 11 2012 06:23. Posts 685 | Profile # |
| drops are always good, it throws off your opponent more than you realize. I always consider multitasking against a drop, harder than doing one myself. |
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| Blazinghand United States. July 11 2012 09:08. Posts 12202 | Profile Blog # |
On July 11 2012 04:12 MaxSteel wrote:
Show nested quote +On July 10 2012 23:02 Clarity_nl wrote:
On July 10 2012 19:04 MaxSteel wrote:
Long Post
Your answer is a 2 base 10 min tank/hellion/marauder/marine doom drop? Followed by a 3rd + 4th, double armory and double starport + fusion core....? Do you happen to have a replay by any chance?
Many. I'll drop a few right now: http://drop.sc/218217 - one of the best maps to drop the 3rd. Also, didn't have to turtle to ultra-late game, managed to win with a 20 min push. If he'd fungle my army, it'd die, but I'd be able to make more BC's and Ravens instead of it. http://drop.sc/218219 - Just the drop won the game, due to an attempted late bane bust. http://drop.sc/218221 - Apart from some bad hellion trades, this is a pretty good demonstration of what can happen if the zerg catches you in the extremely vulnerable time when you are just building the PF wall in your base, but already got the BC army. I should've made way more CC's everywhere, but still, this is an ok replay. PS Even though this is dia level, I'm pretty sure the opening would work vs anybody, probably even GM, as long as they don't expect it. After all, rank doesn't make your units stronger, or the opening different.
Although your rank alone doesn't make your units stronger or your opening different, something that underlies your rank does: skill. A well-controlled army is literally stronger than a poorly controlled army, and a diamond player (or even a low master player) trying to run an opening won't do it as well as a high master player. |
| | When you stare into the iCCup, the iCCup stares back. |
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