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Ladder-Balance-Data

Forum Index > StarCraft 2 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 All
 
 skeldark   Germany. July 11 2012 01:34. Posts 2215
Profile # 
[image loading]

Sc2 Ladder-Balance-Data

If you want to help to get more data: MMR-Stats
Beside this little balance data, this program can do his main task: Show your real MMR!



This is the diffrence to the average MMR, of my Ladder-Data, per Race. Not more not Less.

You can not see on any statistic game-data, if the reason is game design or social aspects.
Not you, not me, not blizzard, not a single game designer!

So we have the choice of paying for a global sociology study to find it out (if you can call it this way in sociology ^^)
or just ASSUME it comes from game design like every game company does.



The data is biased towards EU/US and towards higher skill-rate.
+16/-16 MMR is the average for a single win/loose on ladder.
Result:
Difference to average MMR:

MMR Filter: 2000 MMR+ ( above master)
TIME Filter: 1 Jul 2012 00:00:00 GMT - 31 Jul 2012 23:59:59 GMT
T: -15.77
Z: -0.77
P: 12.23

MMR Filter: 2000 MMR+ ( above master)
TIME Filter: 1 Aug 2012 00:00:00 GMT - 11 Aug 2012 11:47:54 GMT
T: -15.24
Z: -7.24
P: 17.76

MMR Filter: No
TIME Filter: 1 Jul 2012 00:00:00 GMT - 31 Jul 2012 23:59:59 GMT
T: -45.24
Z: 28.76
P: 6.76

MMR Filter: No
TIME Filter: 1 Aug 2012 00:00:00 GMT - 11 Aug 2012 11:47:54 GMT
T: -46.82
Z: 23.18
P: 14.18




Old/First Results+ Show Spoiler +

Work:+ Show Spoiler +

If you want to discuss the method and the significant of the data , first read my op and the analyses in it
+ the analyses and discussion of other people in this thread.
I did the best i can and willing to do to prove the significant of the data.
If you misunderstand the result this is not my problem.

GL & HF
Skeletor
Last edit: 2012-08-15 11:47:09
Save gaming: kill esport
Old Post

 
 DashedHopes   Canada. July 11 2012 01:35. Posts 372
Profile # 
Good job i agree ; )
Old Post

 
 sCCrooked   Korea (South). July 11 2012 01:39. Posts 1067
Profile Blog # 
This is some excellent data from our own little ladder world. Good to see it all in once place!
Follow the yellow brick road and you'll find whoever is f*cking with you.
Old Post

 
 Ghanburighan   Estonia. July 11 2012 01:44. Posts 3412
Profile # 
Great work Skeldark. Thank you for contributing your hours to give us a better understanding of the situation.
Cry 'havoc' and let slip the dogs of war
Old Post

 
 danl9rm   United States. July 11 2012 01:50. Posts 2440
Profile Blog # 
Hmm, pretty cool.

Also, I highly approve of your nick. (The one you signed with at the end.)
"Science has so well established that the preborn baby in the womb is a living human being that most pro-choice activists have conceded the point. ..since the abortion proponents have lost the science argument, they are now advocating an existential one."
Old Post

 
 1st_Panzer_Div.   United States. July 11 2012 01:50. Posts 621
Profile # 
Whoah, rechecked that, you have 149,000 games of data. And you are claiming 4% of that is you as well?

So you have 5900 games of your own in this?

And why did you run the random deviation tests than only running 1,000 games, and not at least equal to the 149,000. (You actually should run random monte carlo's for whatever the estimated current userbase is to get some mock battle.net ladders from a perfectly balanced game). I could easily pick 1,000 games out of your current data and show significant imbalance towards any of the three races.

Also what are the dates your data is from?

This is a cool idea... the deviation bit is just not nearly enough random games to be accurate. What program did you use to run these tests, and was it length of the test that prevented you from doing a few hundred thousand?
Last edit: 2012-07-11 02:03:37
Manager, Team RIP ZeeZ
Old Post

 
 TrippSC2   United States. July 11 2012 01:58. Posts 175
Profile Blog # 
Excellent contribution, skeldark, as always.

I just hope the community doesn't take this for more than it is...
 
Old Post

 
 SDream   Brazil. July 11 2012 01:58. Posts 896
Profile Blog # 

On July 11 2012 01:50 1st_Panzer_Div. wrote:
How the hell did you get 45,000 games of data? Just really curious where you got that, it's a ton of data to work with.

Edit: 4% of that data is you?

So you have 1,800 of your own games in the data? Damn...


http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=334561

-----------------------------
Thanks for your time and effort man, I think that the mmr difference of only 3 victories is there mainly because TvZ/ZvT isn't the only matchup we have there at the moment, the imbalance for ZvT is probably larger and the balance for TvP and ZvP is probably fine, that results in these numbers I'd guess.
Old Post

 
 Malaz   Germany. July 11 2012 02:01. Posts 1193
Profile # 
Ok time for me as a random player to start crying about balance. Buff random already Blizzard!!
 
Old Post

 
 Mendelfist   Sweden. July 11 2012 02:03. Posts 286
Profile # 

On July 11 2012 01:34 skeldark wrote:
The chance that -race independent- stronger players pick a specific race is near 0.



That's an unsupported statement. I don't know where I've heard it, but I'm pretty sure some Blizzard representative, maybe Josh, has explicitly stated that there is a preference for low level players to choose terran. Does it look the same if you exclude for example everyone below masters?
Old Post

 
 1st_Panzer_Div.   United States. July 11 2012 02:04. Posts 621
Profile # 

On July 11 2012 01:58 SDream wrote:

Show nested quote +



http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=334561

-----------------------------
Thanks for your time and effort man, I think that the mmr difference of only 3 victories is there mainly because TvZ/ZvT isn't the only matchup we have there at the moment, the imbalance for ZvT is probably larger and the balance for TvP and ZvP is probably fine, that results in these numbers I'd guess.



Project is from May 3rd. And I rechecked, 4% would be 5900 games.

And to show what that would do, his current claim is that terran is 2.7% lower mmr than they should be if the game is balanced. 4% of the games are from him personally.

Also see my above post asking why he only ran 1,000 random sample (or x4, so 4,000) and not at the very least 145,000, though the full 1v1 population of b.net would be the most accurate to run for his balanced random samples.
Last edit: 2012-07-11 02:07:27
Manager, Team RIP ZeeZ
Old Post

 
 ElMeanYo   United States. July 11 2012 02:05. Posts 423
Profile # 

On July 11 2012 02:01 Malaz wrote:
Ok time for me as a random player to start crying about balance. Buff random already Blizzard!!


I agree. If you go random your opponents should be set to 90% handicap.

+ Show Spoiler +
Old Post

 
 Psychobabas   United Kingdom. July 11 2012 02:06. Posts 1957
Profile Blog # 
Well well well...
ChoJJa for life!
Old Post

 
 Stiluz   Norway. July 11 2012 02:08. Posts 685
Profile # 
It would be interesting if you could divide this by league too.
Old Post

 
 Woj   United States. July 11 2012 02:10. Posts 129
Profile Blog # 
Great work on your program!

Looking at your statistics I can come up with a few criticisms.

Namely you inherently have very strong response bias due to the data collection using your program. Additionally, your "Proof of Concept" section is rather confusing and I'm not sure I agree with your postulates there, namely numbers 1 and 3.

I think if you included a section with your calculations, findings and descriptions in a Methods section that you findings would be much easier to follow!
 
Old Post

 
 Huragius   Lithuania. July 11 2012 02:11. Posts 1347
Profile # 

On July 11 2012 02:08 Stiluz wrote:
It would be interesting if you could divide this by league too.


Or... Divide by zero ?!
Old Post

 
 StarGalaxy   Germany. July 11 2012 02:12. Posts 578
Profile # 
This is very interesting. Thx for all the work!

Do you skeldark think it is possible to make a ladder/ total rank of the MMR data?
Like sc2ranks just with MMR instead of points?
I would be interested who is the best on the servers.




On July 11 2012 01:50 1st_Panzer_Div. wrote:
4% of the games are from him personally.



That's not what he is saying...
Last edit: 2012-07-11 02:17:13
Socke | HasuObs | MaNa | ThorZaIN | TheStC | TLO
Old Post

 
 BearG   United States. July 11 2012 02:13. Posts 32
Profile Blog # 
This shows us what everyone already knew. Terrans are winning less verses zerg. Zergs are winning more versus Terran. Keep doing the data though. It would be interesting to see what it looks like after Terran has some sort of breakthrough.

Edit: Also, good work!
Last edit: 2012-07-11 02:13:57
Old Post

 
 MockHamill   Sweden. July 11 2012 02:14. Posts 569
Profile # 
This is excellent work but could you please combine it with different skill ranges?

For instance top 2% of Protoss player compared to top 2% of Terran Players etc.
Old Post

  Chill   Canada. July 11 2012 02:17. Posts 25251Profile Blog # 

On July 11 2012 02:03 Mendelfist wrote:

Show nested quote +



That's an unsupported statement. I don't know where I've heard it, but I'm pretty sure some Blizzard representative, maybe Josh, has explicitly stated that there is a preference for low level players to choose terran. Does it look the same if you exclude for example everyone below masters?

Agreed. The whole basis for this project is defeated by one realistic (in my eyes) claim that is dismissed. Also, why do we care about average balance? If Zerg is easier than Terran from Bronze - Masters, does it really matter to the members of this forum?
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=275302&currentpage=225#4490
Old Post

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