Lurker vs Swarm Host

I like the Swarm Host much better because of the interesting potential it has to undergo changes during HotS's development.
Plus, dat model is awesome.

"Did you just.. are you.. is this... what? Bitch please, I am iNcontroL."

0neder United States. July 12 2012 11:30. Posts 3732

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On July 12 2012 11:30 Zambrah wrote:
I like the Swarm Host much better because of the interesting potential it has to undergo changes during HotS's development.
Plus, dat model is awesome.

Wait, you like the Swarm Host because you hope it will change to be a better unit design? I don't know if that's a good risk to take...

On July 12 2012 10:49 FragRaptor wrote:

Show nested quote +

Strangely enough, the ability to have OP things was toned down by the difficulty to control everything. The difficulty to keep units together made the OP splash not that bad. Watching the OSL sayle would say it was a good storm when it killed like 4 hydras, and strangely it made sense because a good portion of the units weren't instantly filling in on the dead spot.

It is weird how bugs and limitations can sometimes make things more interesting.

Great point, that's why we're pushing for heterogenous movement (with good pathing still) too. Maverk already has a decent version in SC2BW, shouldn't be hard for the pros at Blizzard to implement.

Last edit: 2012-07-12 11:37:41

Zambrah United States. July 12 2012 11:36. Posts 1401

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On July 12 2012 11:30 0neder wrote:

Show nested quote +

Wait, you like the Swarm Host because you hope it will change to be a better unit design? I don't know if that's a good risk to take...

Show nested quote +

Great point, that's why we're pushing for heterogenous movement (with good pathing still) too.

Considering the unit hasn't been released, I think its a fair factor to take into account, just the different types of units it could spawn would make it a really cool unit, it could spawn varieties of units that do different things, and you could upgrade the Swarm Host.

I mean I like the unit as a concept, a unit that burrows and spawns waves of units, I think thats really interesting and it seems Zergy to me.

Of course I'm a person who REALLY wants cool upgrades to be put into the game, so the Swarm Host naturally holds a great deal of potential in my eyes with regards to how the unit can evolve.

"Did you just.. are you.. is this... what? Bitch please, I am iNcontroL."

MGcHarger Canada. July 12 2012 11:36. Posts 120

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I think you should post the lurker from BW , those pictures are actually real lurkers, not that lame pict from a sc2 supposedly to be called lurker

iky43210 United States. July 12 2012 11:40. Posts 1951

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all these questions are pointless, since we haven't even tried swarm host yet

0neder United States. July 12 2012 11:40. Posts 3732

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On July 12 2012 11:36 Zambrah wrote:

Show nested quote +

Considering the unit hasn't been released, I think its a fair factor to take into account, just the different types of units it could spawn would make it a really cool unit, it could spawn varieties of units that do different things, and you could upgrade the Swarm Host.

I mean I like the unit as a concept, a unit that burrows and spawns waves of units, I think thats really interesting and it seems Zergy to me.

Of course I'm a person who REALLY wants cool upgrades to be put into the game, so the Swarm Host naturally holds a great deal of potential in my eyes with regards to how the unit can evolve.

This is a fair comment and one of the best in the thread so far IMO. Thank you good sir.

I am totally open to new better iterations of the swarm host. The whole surrogate energy attack might get a little redundant though. I'd rather just make the hydra or roach 1 supply to increase overall quantity of units to get a more meaningful swarm feel than more temporary stuff to spam. If it replaced the infestor then I wouldn't mind more surrogate attacking so much.

EDIT: even the art design is more science fiction in terms of proportions.
[image loading]

Last edit: 2012-07-12 11:55:44

1a2a3a[MB] United States. July 12 2012 11:48. Posts 262

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Seriously the reason you want the lurker is you want the same feeling as broodwar blizzard is making SC2 a new game.

RIP Teams Hwaseung OZ, WeMadeFox, MBC Game Hero, Air Force ACE, ZeNEX, SlayerS, Quantic-Vile, TSL, mTw

BlindKill Australia. July 12 2012 11:49. Posts 1179

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i rather they don't add any new units.... theres already infested terran and broodlings

“Life is a grindstone, and whether it grinds a man down or polishes him up depends on the stuff he's made of.”

0neder United States. July 12 2012 11:52. Posts 3732

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On July 12 2012 11:48 1a2a3a[MB] wrote:
Seriously the reason you want the lurker is you want the same feeling as broodwar blizzard is making SC2 a new game.

No, we want something better than the lurker. But barring an improved offering from Blizzard's design team, this is the fallback.

Also, you are right that I want the same feeling as Brood War, as in a feeling of epicness, a feeling of larger armies, a feeling of imba splash damage, a feeling of unforgiving speed, and a feeling of excitement and tension. SC2 occasionally gets me excited, but that's the exception because poor game design is holding it back.

However they do it, if SC2 recaptures that same intensity of those feelings, it will succeed and last a long time and be played for the love of the game. If not, it will probably die a few years after LotV.

Last edit: 2012-07-12 11:53:28

DarkPlasmaBall United States. July 12 2012 12:00. Posts 19998

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Lurkers are amazing in BW... but I haven't been able to try out the Swarm Host yet (let alone for several years) so I can't properly compare them >.<

"Those who can, teach. Those who can't, whine about teachers." ~Me

PH United States. July 12 2012 12:01. Posts 6076

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I feel like Lurkers would just be way too weird to use in SC2 with the way units path. With their tendency to clump, it'd just be annoying as hell to get them positioned well offensively.

Also, their damage output needs to be buffed from what you listed in the OP. 15+15armored is a ridiculous four hits against combat shield marines...T_T. That's also three hits on lings...

Hello

Ryuu314 United States. July 12 2012 12:02. Posts 5309

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On July 12 2012 11:48 1a2a3a[MB] wrote:
Seriously the reason you want the lurker is you want the same feeling as broodwar blizzard is making SC2 a new game.

new =/= better

honestly, based off of what little i've seen of hots, it seems far and away from what Starcraft as a franchise used to be. It's turning more and more into warcraft in space. This is particularly sad since Blizzard seems to be completely ignoring what the community is asking for. Taking out iconic, powerful, and key units like lurker, carrier, reaver and replacing them with stuff the community generally dislikes.

It's not just that people want BW units, it's more that people want good units. The colossus is a great example of this. It's a shitty designed unit and people simply don't like it. Blizz took out the reaver, a well-liked unit, and replaced it with an almost universally hated one. In contrast, the addition of banelings was amazing. It’s a new unit that is awesome and people enjoy using. While yes, we can’t really judge properly until we play it, the community can generally get a decent idea of what it’ll be like based on what we’ve seen and the little we’ve played in demos. We want more banelings, less colossi.

Also, for all the people saying “wait for the beta to decide,” you all have to realize that once stuff is (or isn’t) in the beta, it will stay (or won’t appear) in the release game at all. Beta is for fine tuning, not changing content. There is no way Blizzard will add lurker or remove swarm host once the game gets into beta unless something is completely, fundamentally broken, which won’t happen.

Cogito ergo doleo

Bagration United States. July 12 2012 12:04. Posts 10700

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Swarm host and Brood Lord together I think are a bit redundant though...

Team Slayers, Axiom and Vile forever

MilesTeg France. July 12 2012 12:05. Posts 1248

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I think the Swarm Host is going to be the best unit in HotS, and better than the Lurker.

I expect it to be insanely hard to use, but a good Zerg is going to be a Zerg who is able to control the mid-game with the SH, not only positionning them well but attacking and microing well every 30 seconds, and making sure they survive. Great for the game, and a better gameplay concept than the Lurker IMO.

0neder United States. July 12 2012 12:07. Posts 3732

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On July 12 2012 11:49 BlindKill wrote:
i rather they don't add any new units.... theres already infested terran and broodlings

and changelings and my building died lings and now ever more lings!

Zerglings are good enough, we don't need 10 versions of them. Do something different Blizzard.

0neder United States. July 12 2012 12:07. Posts 3732

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On July 12 2012 12:05 MilesTeg wrote:
I think the Swarm Host is going to be the best unit in HotS, and better than the Lurker.

I expect it to be insanely hard to use, but a good Zerg is going to be a Zerg who is able to control the mid-game with the SH, not only positionning them well but attacking and microing well every 30 seconds, and making sure they survive. Great for the game, and a better gameplay concept than the Lurker IMO.

It's not as exciting though, there is less urgency.

tree.hugger Saint Paul, MN. July 12 2012 12:07. Posts 8951

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The lurker was an absolutely brilliant unit; so much depth to it. There'd be no shame in bringing it back.

(-_(-_(-_(-_-)_-)_-)_-) — "The girl was like.... omg effort is so hot, if he can do that with his zerlings i can just imagine what he can do with me lololol" - Heaven_n — EffOrt, Snow, PartinG, HerO, Snute, BK, GuMiho fighting! — @treehuggertl

Qwyn United States. July 12 2012 12:10. Posts 1349

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On July 12 2012 12:02 Ryuu314 wrote:

Show nested quote +

new =/= better

honestly, based off of what little i've seen of hots, it seems far and away from what Starcraft as a franchise used to be. It's turning more and more into warcraft in space. This is particularly sad since Blizzard seems to be completely ignoring what the community is asking for. Taking out iconic, powerful, and key units like lurker, carrier, reaver and replacing them with stuff the community generally dislikes.

It's not just that people want BW units, it's more that people want good units. The colossus is a great example of this. It's a shitty designed unit and people simply don't like it. Blizz took out the reaver, a well-liked unit, and replaced it with an almost universally hated one. In contrast, the addition of banelings was amazing. It’s a new unit that is awesome and people enjoy using. While yes, we can’t really judge properly until we play it, the community can generally get a decent idea of what it’ll be like based on what we’ve seen and the little we’ve played in demos. We want more banelings, less colossi.

Also, for all the people saying “wait for the beta to decide,” you all have to realize that once stuff is (or isn’t) in the beta, it will stay (or won’t appear) in the release game at all. Beta is for fine tuning, not changing content. There is no way Blizzard will add lurker or remove swarm host once the game gets into beta unless something is completely, fundamentally broken, which won’t happen.

Thank you. This is a wonderful post. Too many people are saying that we should wait until beta to make judgements on the SH. That's rediculous. If we wait until beta then that means there is no turning back.

Blizzard has already released a lot of information regarding the unit. Enough to make a completely sound judgement on the concept of the swarm host and why it is inferior to the lurker.

IDRA FIGHTING!

Rabiator Germany. July 12 2012 12:16. Posts 3225

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While I totally agree on Lurker being better designed than the Swarm Host there is one problem: Zerg have already gotten a short-range burrowed AoE attack unit and that is the Baneling. So effectively they both fulfill the same role ... with the Lurker again being the better design. So if you want the Lurker you should give up the Baneling for it.

The Swarm Host is simply a bad design, because it is yet another "free unit" to draw siege tank fire. In addition it also serves as an "enemy detector" because it automatically knows in which direction to go even if you dont see any enemy units at all. That is really terrible design. Blizzard, please do NOT add this unit in HotS!

If you cant say what you're meaning, you can never mean what you're saying.

Qwyn United States. July 12 2012 12:19. Posts 1349

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On July 12 2012 08:39 Ansinjunger wrote:
I wasn't warm on banelings at first. I have always more or less detested the concept of suicide units. I liked the idea of using an infested terran but acquiring those and using them is way too complicated. Anyways, now I cannot imagine SC2 without banelings.

I'm not sure the lurker has a place with banelings and fungals already. Killing stuff with lurkers was like all I wanted to do in SC1...it's insane fun...but the swarm host deserves a chance. Hopefully these can both be explored in beta.

First off, change fungal to SLOW, not STOP movement, as it should be (fucking rediculous, lol), and lower the DPS it deals even more. Like /to 1/3 of what it is now. I always imagined it to slow movement, not stop it.

Banelings don't overlap with the lurker. The lurker deals SUSTAINED AOE which locks down areas of the map. The baneling has a one time attack. It is a suicide unit designed to trade armies effectively. You build banelings when you want to flush both your army and the enemy's down the toilet and remax on higher tech.

TO THE POST ABOVE:

For instance, say I put some banes on top of a ramp to lock it down. Marines walk up the ramp, I detonate, kill maybe 5/10. That's all good, but there's no way to sustain that damage. Once I detonate the banes then the enemy is free to walk into my area that I had attempted to lock down and harass my base, etc.

With a lurker, I would be able to lock that area down. The marines would poke up the ramp and be shredded apart. I would be able to hold that area for as long as I needed to before T got tanks or drop.

I thought about it for a lot and eventually came to that difference. The role of the baneling is to trade. Lurkers lock down areas completely until an adequate response is prepared.

Also remember that players are limited by gas. I can't get both a lot of banelings and a lot of lurkers. They promote different playstyles.

Last edit: 2012-07-12 12:23:43

IDRA FIGHTING!