| Ezzaa July 13 2012 07:17. Posts 17 | Profile # |
I've seen lots of stuff on Reddit and a few posts here about Naniwa's performance today in GSL Code S RO8. I'm not trying to take away from the great games played, but the 18Probe/1Zealot Expand build he used was first debuted in 2012 GSTL Season 1 Play off Ro4 - Match1, Set 2 by MVPTails against Startale_Sound. This is where I first saw this build. It began more against Zerg as the metagame shifted towards speed-less zergling and also 15 hatch openings.
For a while I've played on the Taiwan/Korea server at the high platinum/low diamond level and have seen this build countless times vs Protoss players as both Terran and Zerg (I'm random). High Master players I know there have also seen this build, so it's not just a low level metagame thing. The theory behind this is that the extra chronoboost from the second nexus allows for a faster 4Gate timing compared to the conventional 1Gate/Expo into 4Gate build, and also allows you to get out units faster pre-warpgate. I really can't understand how the casters had never seen this build before.
I felt that we should just give credit where credit is due, I can't find this build anywhere else and had never seen it before MVPTails did it. For me, and others like me, this build revolutionized the PvT and PvZ matchup by giving a safe, strong build that allows you to hit a strong pressure timing and still rapidly tech behind it.
Here's the link to the VOD:
http://www.gomtv.net/2012gstls1/vod/66902/?set=2&lang=Last edit: 2012-07-13 07:20:45 |
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| Eee Sweden. July 13 2012 07:20. Posts 2709 | Profile # | |
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| Ezzaa July 13 2012 07:21. Posts 17 | Profile # |
| Oh very cool! I've only ever heard it referred to 18p/1z expo, I never thought to look it up under that name. Very interesting. |
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| xPliCt Germany. July 13 2012 07:23. Posts 124 | Profile # |
| Khaldor mentions it a ton, that Naniwa is a big fan/friend of tails, so this isnt very suprising |
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| ZAiNs United Kingdom. July 13 2012 07:24. Posts 3474 | Profile # |
| Doing a build in PvT is completely different from doing it in PvZ. Show me another pro PvZ where it is used. Last edit: 2012-07-13 07:25:26 |
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| Cinim Denmark. July 13 2012 07:26. Posts 671 | Profile # |
On July 13 2012 07:24 ZAiNs wrote:
Doing a build in PvT is completely different from doing it in PvZ. Show me another pro PvZ where it is used.
This isn't a build intended for PvT either, but one that have for some time been intended to work in PvZ 
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| Ezzaa July 13 2012 07:28. Posts 17 | Profile # |
@ZAiNs- Would you like me to send you replays? I might be able to find some. I've been playing Protoss for this season, so most of my ZvP replays are in a folder somewhere and I stick to the in-base forge opening because it's the safest against lower platinum league koreans due to 9/10 games being 6pools. I'll see what I can find and I'll PM you tonight.
edit: lol, you edit it to say "pro"? as I said, that was the first time i saw it, and it was used on the ladder in several ways since. just because something was in a pro replay doesn't mean it's the only way a build can be publicized - the korean server is small and it seems everyone knows eachother from what i've seen.Last edit: 2012-07-13 07:30:45 |
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| Niteblade_ Canada. July 13 2012 07:31. Posts 113 | Profile # |
On July 13 2012 07:17 Ezzaa wrote:I've seen lots of stuff on Reddit and a few posts here about Naniwa's performance today in GSL Code S RO8. I'm not trying to take away from the great games played (but really I am, especially by wording it this way) , but the 18Probe/1Zealot Expand build he used was first debuted in 2012 GSTL Season 1 Play off Ro4 - Match1, Set 2 by MVPTails against Startale_Sound. This is where I first saw this build. It began more against Zerg as the metagame shifted towards speed-less zergling and also 15 hatch openings. For a while I've played on the Taiwan/Korea server at the high platinum/low diamond level and have seen this build countless times vs Protoss players as both Terran and Zerg (I'm random). High Master players I know there have also seen this build, so it's not just a low level metagame thing. The theory behind this is that the extra chronoboost from the second nexus allows for a faster 4Gate timing compared to the conventional 1Gate/Expo into 4Gate build, and also allows you to get out units faster pre-warpgate. I really can't understand how the casters had never seen this build before. I felt that we should just give credit where credit is due, I can't find this build anywhere else and had never seen it before MVPTails did it. For me, and others like me, this build revolutionized the PvT and PvZ matchup by giving a safe, strong build that allows you to hit a strong pressure timing and still rapidly tech behind it. Here's the link to the VOD: http://www.gomtv.net/2012gstls1/vod/66902/?set=2&lang=
I fixed taht for you. The way you present it sounds exactly like you are trying to take credit from nani. Anyway im sure almost all the builds in GSL are used somewhere (randomly) before they show up there, but it is the refinment of the build that makes it seem so impressive in that particular setting.
On a more build based topic its awesome that there may be another option in PvZ other than FFE, even if it is used say only 5%-10% of the time, its an option at least |
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| OneBaseKing Afghanistan. July 13 2012 07:37. Posts 408 | Profile Blog # |
| naniwa did 1 gate expannd into 4 gate pressure |
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| Fluffboll Sweden. July 13 2012 07:39. Posts 468 | Profile # |
It's interesting how much unimportant stuff people digs up just so they can come to a forum and try to discredit someone who is infinitly more popular and succesful than they themselves will ever be.
Does it really matter who uses a build first? No, no it does not. Simple as that |
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| Ezzaa July 13 2012 07:45. Posts 17 | Profile # |
Fluffboll, can you explain how "digging up" a build that people have been doing for months and crediting the guy that made this amazing build is discrediting anyone? Not giving credit is hardly taking credit away. I played every day and talk to high level Taiwanese players daily and have never heard of or seen this build prior to Tails. This build was nowhere on the map.
It does matter who did it first, because it caused a shift in the metagame on Taiwan/Korea and you kids circlejerk over Naniwa who hasn't showed a single great game this season - especially compared to (my pick at the start of the season) Byun who will win this season without a doubt. I get it, he's a non-korean and everyone wants him to win, but he gets so much hype it's disgusting.
inb4 "OMG U SO JEALOUS"
User was warned for this postLast edit: 2012-07-13 07:46:37 |
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| ZAiNs United Kingdom. July 13 2012 07:46. Posts 3474 | Profile # |
On July 13 2012 07:28 Ezzaa wrote:
@ZAiNs- Would you like me to send you replays? I might be able to find some. I've been playing Protoss for this season, so most of my ZvP replays are in a folder somewhere and I stick to the in-base forge opening because it's the safest against lower platinum league koreans due to 9/10 games being 6pools. I'll see what I can find and I'll PM you tonight.
edit: lol, you edit it to say "pro"? as I said, that was the first time i saw it, and it was used on the ladder in several ways since. just because something was in a pro replay doesn't mean it's the only way a build can be publicized - the korean server is small and it seems everyone knows eachother from what i've seen.
Really you can't tell who invents what unless they straight up say they invented something. But Naniwa's use of the build was definitely intended to be a surprise and was a surprise to DongRaeGu who is well versed in PvZ openings. You can't blame anyone for not seeing this build before when it has never been used in a pro-game before, unless you expect Artosis to watch his Diamond friends ladder.
EDIT: Ok after reading your last post you seem to be taking this whole thing a bit too seriously...Last edit: 2012-07-13 07:54:05 |
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| Ezzaa July 13 2012 07:47. Posts 17 | Profile # |
| I can tell this is going nowhere, this place is worse than Reddit. This is why EU and NA are such a joke, completely secluded from the best builds and boasting about the first decent foreigner to figure out a build from 6 months ago. |
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| Niteblade_ Canada. July 13 2012 07:52. Posts 113 | Profile # |
On July 13 2012 07:45 Ezzaa wrote:
Fluffboll, can you explain how "digging up" a build that people have been doing for months and crediting the guy that made this amazing build is discrediting anyone? Not giving credit is hardly taking credit away. I played every day and talk to high level Taiwanese players daily and have never heard of or seen this build prior to Tails. This build was nowhere on the map.
It does matter who did it first, because it caused a shift in the metagame on Taiwan/Korea and you kids circlejerk over Naniwa who hasn't showed a single great game this season - especially compared to (my pick at the start of the season) Byun who will win this season without a doubt. I get it, he's a non-korean and everyone wants him to win, but he gets so much hype it's disgusting.
inb4 "OMG U SO JEALOUS"
It will go no where. Its so obvious how biased you are against naniwa. Im not a nani fan or an antifan, and from an objective point of view thats definately how you look. Saying this place is worse than reddit after such an idiotic defense just adds to it all rofl.
And it really doesn't matter who did it first, as a community i'd rather explore it and refine that say "No not that fucking noob, he stole it" which is essentially what you said, you just worded it to try and make it look otherwise.
However I do agree it would be sick if Byun won, that guy is playing insanely well this season |
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| K_Dilkington Sweden. July 13 2012 07:57. Posts 445 | Profile # |
On July 13 2012 07:45 Ezzaa wrote:
Fluffboll, can you explain how "digging up" a build that people have been doing for months and crediting the guy that made this amazing build is discrediting anyone? Not giving credit is hardly taking credit away. I played every day and talk to high level Taiwanese players daily and have never heard of or seen this build prior to Tails. This build was nowhere on the map.
It does matter who did it first, because it caused a shift in the metagame on Taiwan/Korea and you kids circlejerk over Naniwa who hasn't showed a single great game this season - especially compared to (my pick at the start of the season) Byun who will win this season without a doubt. I get it, he's a non-korean and everyone wants him to win, but he gets so much hype it's disgusting.
inb4 "OMG U SO JEALOUS"
You're so transparent. It's obvious you don't like naniwa and the fact that you would actually go to this length to discredit him is just plain sad. |
| | Common sense is the collection of prejudices acquired by the age of 18 |
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| aike United States. July 13 2012 07:58. Posts 1294 | Profile Blog # |
Really low post count and he's here trying to start a fight :\
It's not just the build, but the way in which nani pulled it off. 1 gate FE into 4 gate pressure... that shouldn't work... but it did, and it did well. |
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| hifriend Sweden. July 13 2012 08:00. Posts 5968 | Profile Blog # |
Probably true but isn't this always how it is? Some ladder hero or practice partner comes up with a great build, but the gosu guy that uses it successfully in an important game for the first time tends to get the credit.
Anyway this thing feels like more of a 'style' than a simple bo. Similar to the so called 'bisu build', with interesting transitions and variations.Last edit: 2012-07-13 08:04:58 |
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| Wuster July 13 2012 08:03. Posts 627 | Profile # |
On July 13 2012 07:37 OneBaseKing wrote:
naniwa did 1 gate expannd into 4 gate pressure
That was one fork of the opening he did, which is why it was so great. He kept DRG guessing as to what his follow up was going to be.
Also, isn't this the PvZ opener that Seed has mixing in all year? Maybe I don't get the subtleties of a 1-gate expand (which he did against Symbol yesterday in fact)...
But Naniwa definitely proved that you can get different, effective timings out of it as opposed to FFE all the time. Not to mention that when he opened with that Gateway he had a different followup, which just makes this all the more viable in faking out an opponent.Last edit: 2012-07-13 08:03:40 |
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| ROOTheognis United States. July 13 2012 08:09. Posts 4433 | Profile Blog # |
uhh, isn't ST_Sound a terran player?
I guess it works in PvT too... minus the blink partLast edit: 2012-07-13 08:10:09 |
| | If you avoid your weakness, it will remain your weakness. www.twitter.com/#!/rootheognis Follow me! |  |
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| ZAiNs United Kingdom. July 13 2012 08:11. Posts 3474 | Profile # |
On July 13 2012 08:03 Wuster wrote:
Show nested quote +On July 13 2012 07:37 OneBaseKing wrote:
naniwa did 1 gate expannd into 4 gate pressure
That was one fork of the opening he did, which is why it was so great. He kept DRG guessing as to what his follow up was going to be. Also, isn't this the PvZ opener that Seed has mixing in all year? Maybe I don't get the subtleties of a 1-gate expand (which he did against Symbol yesterday in fact)... But Naniwa definitely proved that you can get different, effective timings out of it as opposed to FFE all the time. Not to mention that when he opened with that Gateway he had a different followup, which just makes this all the more viable in faking out an opponent.
On Antiga and Whirlwind Naniwa went Gate Nexus Gas Core, the normal 1 Gate expand (which Naniwa did on Ohana) would be Gate Gas Core Nexus. |
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