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 Masvidal Korea (South). July 13 2012 07:30. Posts 213 | Profile # |
Anyone who watched the GSL Code S Ro8 series between Nani and DRG + Show Spoiler +(don't click if you don't want to see series results!) + Show Spoiler +in which DRG eeked out a victory against Naniwa in a close 3-2 series
Naniwa opened with a gateway in his main (14 gate, I think? Didn't pay close attention to the BO while watching the VoD like a dumbass) and took a gas, then quickly took his natural (or maybe he took the gas right after dropping the Nexus, I'm not sure) while getting a jump-start on his tech and later adding gates and a forge and going aggressive. His Gateway-unit push came at an unexpected and unusual timing due to not coming off of standard FFE 17 Nexus 17 Gate timing and really seemed to catch DongRaeGu off guard; he cancelled his third hatch only to rebuild it, etc. The pressure from Naniwa was very effective, and while it definitely relied on deviating heavily from the current PvZ metagame, I think builds like this could keep Zerg honest, or at least make them think twice before blindly going 3 Hatch before gas every game in PvZ.
Does anyone have access to a VoD of this game (or the entire series), maybe watched it very closely and get a rough skeleton of the build order, or is anyone able to provide any somewhat in-depth analysis and/or explanation of the build? I'm a huge Naniwa fan, so while normally if I see a new BO I like, I re-watch the VoDs until I understand the build order and start using it, I was on the edge of my seat and just didn't record the games.
I think this type of play if not necessarily nani's build specifically, has the potential the change the PvZ metagame or at least play on it, to give Protoss more than one option for the basic opener, and that the advantages and disadvantages definitely warrant a discussion. Any thoughts, critiques, or explanations of the particular opener & build nani used (in GSL Ro8 Naniwa vs DRG Game 1, again, for reference) is very much welcome; as a Protoss player myself facing 3 Hatch before gas countless times per day, understanding, and later having in my PvZ arsenal, a build that doesn't stem from the standard FFE opening thus leaving Zerg free to take a very early 3rd base completely safely would be very refreshing and could definitely open some doors.
So for those who watched the game, what do you think? Any strategic commentary or explanation (preferably from the point of view of Protoss players, for obvious reasons) would help a lot for us to better understand this build, flesh it out, and turn it into something that, at the very least, we can use from time to time in PvZ to pressure greedy Zergs. And if this becomes even somewhat common at the upper echelons of the ladder, 3 Hatch b4 gas could possibly become something that Zergs have to think about, rather than an extremely safe no-brainer that is considered standard for every game in the matchup, in much the same way that FFE is on the Protoss side.
I'm very excited about the potential of this build as an optional alternative to FFE in, arguably and for many, Protoss' toughest matchup. So, please, enlighten fellow Protoss users with any knowledge, commentary, critique, or better yet, explanation of the build if you managed to video-capture the VoD! Last edit: 2012-07-13 07:40:47 |
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| silentdecay01 United States. July 13 2012 07:33. Posts 106 | Profile # |
Thought nani just used a older 1 gate expand build with a few tweaks for zerg? I sware i seen these types of builds in 2010/2011 mabey not exactly like what he did last night, but certainly not new.
Alot of protoss been using a older style of openers to punish the greedy 3 base play. I have the vods, i belive the 2nd game is the uniq strat he used, game 1 looked like a older opener.
the 2nd game was diff a uniq strat with tons of gates and only 2 void rays, but it did not work out at all for him, mabey if drg did not catch the sentrie and 2 stalkers rally to drg's 3rd it would of turned out better for naniLast edit: 2012-07-13 07:35:18 |
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| Masvidal Korea (South). July 13 2012 07:34. Posts 213 | Profile # |
| He got Nexus at like 16 supply though, or somewhere close; it definitely wasn't a standard 1 Gate FE, a la PvT. The opening may not be new, but it's far from standard, and I for one have NEVER seen a top player use anything like it since the beginning of the 3 Hatch before gas style took hold and changed the face of PvZ drastically, and yet Naniwa deviated heavily from standard PvZ and made it work against probably the best Zerg on the planet utilizing the standard (and widely held to be the strongest) PvZ opening. New or not, it could change the metagame, and it's worth a closer look, for sure. Last edit: 2012-07-13 07:37:19 |
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| blade55555 United States. July 13 2012 07:34. Posts 14069 | Profile Blog # |
On July 13 2012 07:33 silentdecay01 wrote:
Thought nani just used a older 1 gate expand build with a few tweaks for zerg? I sware i seen these types of builds in 2010/2011 mabey not exactly like what he did last night, but certainly not new.
Yeah it isn't new. I have played vs it before as well 1 gate expand into 4-5 gate pressure. Didn't seem new at all to me >>. |
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| Durp Canada. July 13 2012 07:35. Posts 2844 | Profile Blog # |
I haven't watched the series yet, but based on this OP I'll give it a watch and check back into this thread with an edit. I don't think Naniwa is the first person to use a 1gate FE in PvZ
That being said, usually when you want to start a discussion thread like this you want to provide some of your own insight, rather than asking other people to watch the vod and do it for you. Game 1s on GOMtv are usually free for everyone to watch as well, so you should be able to do so yourself.
Also, I don't know if you should be bragging about recording the Vods yourself here, I'm pretty sure GOM doesn't allow that? |
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| oOOoOphidian United States. July 13 2012 07:36. Posts 1235 | Profile # |
It didn't work very well when DRG just reacted with hatch first into gas. It's also very weak to a number of different all-ins. It's a risk and a smart choice for a bad PvZer against one of the best players in the world.
Check out the Adonminus build here on TL, that was basically what Nani used in game 1 I believe. |
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| silentdecay01 United States. July 13 2012 07:36. Posts 106 | Profile # |
i think op is geting the 2nd/3rd game mixed up with the first,
the first game was nothing new, just using a older opener, the 2nd/3rd games tho are werid nani builds. diff the 2nd game |
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| Masvidal Korea (South). July 13 2012 07:38. Posts 213 | Profile # |
| It was the first game in Naniwa vs DRG I'm pretty damn sure; and I thought only game 1 OF THE NIGHT was available, which would have been NesTea vs Byun Game 1, right? If game 1 is available, I'm going to check it out. |
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| OneBaseKing Afghanistan. July 13 2012 07:40. Posts 408 | Profile Blog # |
On July 13 2012 07:34 blade55555 wrote:
Show nested quote +On July 13 2012 07:33 silentdecay01 wrote:
Thought nani just used a older 1 gate expand build with a few tweaks for zerg? I sware i seen these types of builds in 2010/2011 mabey not exactly like what he did last night, but certainly not new.
Yeah it isn't new. I have played vs it before as well 1 gate expand into 4-5 gate pressure. Didn't seem new at all to me >>.
why do u have blue posts? please tell me -_- |
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| silentdecay01 United States. July 13 2012 07:40. Posts 106 | Profile # |
@ masvidal it was not the first game, first game was nothing new, 1 gate fe tweaked for zerg, players in the past, 2011 had done it alot for a safer opener vs z.
It was the 2nd/3rd games in which nani did some crazy builds of his own.
Basicly nani just showed us a older style in game 1, game 2 nani did a werid build doing early stargate making 2 voids and backing up with 6-8 gates adn trying to kill the 3rd of drg. Last edit: 2012-07-13 07:42:40 |
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| Masvidal Korea (South). July 13 2012 07:42. Posts 213 | Profile # |
On July 13 2012 07:40 OneBaseKing wrote:
Show nested quote +On July 13 2012 07:34 blade55555 wrote:
On July 13 2012 07:33 silentdecay01 wrote:
Thought nani just used a older 1 gate expand build with a few tweaks for zerg? I sware i seen these types of builds in 2010/2011 mabey not exactly like what he did last night, but certainly not new.
Yeah it isn't new. I have played vs it before as well 1 gate expand into 4-5 gate pressure. Didn't seem new at all to me >>.
why do u have blue posts? please tell me -_-
Because he knows what he's talking about. In which case I'd like to hear his opinion of the build in relation to the current metagame at the very least  . |
| | "Teamliquid is a place for starcraft, not boobs." -autoexec |
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| OneBaseKing Afghanistan. July 13 2012 07:43. Posts 408 | Profile Blog # |
On July 13 2012 07:42 Masvidal wrote:
Show nested quote +On July 13 2012 07:40 OneBaseKing wrote:
On July 13 2012 07:34 blade55555 wrote:
On July 13 2012 07:33 silentdecay01 wrote:
Thought nani just used a older 1 gate expand build with a few tweaks for zerg? I sware i seen these types of builds in 2010/2011 mabey not exactly like what he did last night, but certainly not new.
Yeah it isn't new. I have played vs it before as well 1 gate expand into 4-5 gate pressure. Didn't seem new at all to me >>.
why do u have blue posts? please tell me -_-
Because he knows what he's talking about. In which case I'd like to hear his opinion of the build in relation to the current metagame at the very least .
seroiusly tell me, everyone's implied why blue posters, how do u achieve blue posts |
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| Masvidal Korea (South). July 13 2012 07:45. Posts 213 | Profile # |
I realize 1 Gate very fast expand into 4 or 5 gate pressure isn't new, but it seemed pretty much extinct in the current metagame. I'm asking for insight from anyone who has played with it or has a position on why Naniwa might have gone this route as opposed to the standard. People don't really open this way anymore, and it worked well enough + Show Spoiler +to take game 1 off of DRG, which is saying something
And blue posters are more respected; they have a high volume of very high quality posts, have contributed a lot to the community, and can generally be trusted as a reliable source of information.Last edit: 2012-07-13 07:46:00 |
| | "Teamliquid is a place for starcraft, not boobs." -autoexec |
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| silentdecay01 United States. July 13 2012 07:45. Posts 106 | Profile # |
Bring old styles back to punish a new greedy build is nothing nani came up with, been alot of Koreans in last seasons team league who did 3 gate expands, 4 gates, 1 gate fe into fast warp gate to punish the 3 base style.
Alot of koreans been opening with older pvz openers on the Korean ladder, and several gsl matches last season/few seasons ago. Again, nothing nani made up or brought back himself. Many people choose not to watch lesser known pro players, and only focus on "popular players" when in fact other players been using strats like this pretty often as of late.Last edit: 2012-07-13 07:47:29 |
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| blade55555 United States. July 13 2012 07:46. Posts 14069 | Profile Blog # |
On July 13 2012 07:42 Masvidal wrote:
Show nested quote +On July 13 2012 07:40 OneBaseKing wrote:
On July 13 2012 07:34 blade55555 wrote:
On July 13 2012 07:33 silentdecay01 wrote:
Thought nani just used a older 1 gate expand build with a few tweaks for zerg? I sware i seen these types of builds in 2010/2011 mabey not exactly like what he did last night, but certainly not new.
Yeah it isn't new. I have played vs it before as well 1 gate expand into 4-5 gate pressure. Didn't seem new at all to me >>.
why do u have blue posts? please tell me -_-
Because he knows what he's talking about. In which case I'd like to hear his opinion of the build in relation to the current metagame at the very least .
For the current metagame I think it can come off as a surprise. I do not personally think this will ever become standard though as I think forge FE is still a lot better. It would be great to throw in a bo3/5/7 like Naniwa did just to throw your opponent off and makes you unpredictable so players have to play a little safer so to speak.
The problem with the 1 gate expo is if zerg knows you are going to do this they can just hatch first and there is nothing a toss can do to punish if they go gateway first which would give zerg a much better economy then toss. Just my opinion I could be wrong of course but that's how I feel about it ^^.
@onebaseking to be honest I don't know how I got it, I imagine it was for all my posts in this section and the many guides I have written. I just posted to see it turned blue and don't know how you can get it today.Last edit: 2012-07-13 07:47:43 |
| | When I think of something else, something will go here |
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| Masvidal Korea (South). July 13 2012 07:47. Posts 213 | Profile # |
| Is it viable as a style to use heavily in PvZ, though, and build gameplans around, or is it just a completely one-off thing to punish people you are VERY CONFIDENT will go 3 Hatch > gas? |
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| sYz-Adrenaline United States. July 13 2012 07:47. Posts 1687 | Profile Blog # |
From the first game:
9plyon
14gate
16 2nd pylon (at natural
17 nexus / gas (small cut of probes)
18 cycore
zealot (chorno)
warpgate (as soon as warpgate is up)
2nd zealot
Makes 3 warp gates to wall-off natural
Note*: Artosis and Tasteless do comment that it works because of the size of the map as well*
Game on Ohana:
9pylon
14gate
15gas
16pylon
18core
21nexus
3rd pylon (at natural/choke)
stalker(chrono)/warpgate
2nd gas
forge (at natural/choke)
stargate
completes walloff at natural with another gate + pylon(s)
He uses most of his chronos on his probes and when the gateway comes up he chronos his first few units out. I'm sure with these kind of builds you could do some variations (if you want to test it yourself). It does allow for quicker tech, stargate went down before the 6 minute mark. You may even opt to take a quick third with it as well.
If you do plan to do this in a ladder scenario you have to remember that 6 pool and other all-ins are still very deadly to this kind of play. You may want to wall-off at the top of your ramp with your gate/core. Play with the build you like it, I like it because its different from the FFE that I feel like I have to do every game. Also remember to scout for the 3rd base if you don't see it, prepare for the all-in.
edit: @OneBaseKing it comes from active posting in this section that also gives good advice to other players. If you see someone with a "blue post" it means their an active and good contributor.
Last edit: 2012-07-13 08:03:11 |
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| ajkayken July 13 2012 07:49. Posts 77 | Profile # |
| the whirlwind map is so massive its hard to scout in time to react properly to this as zerg. wouldnt be a good idea to do on cloud kingdom i dont think |
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| silentdecay01 United States. July 13 2012 07:51. Posts 106 | Profile # |
I agree with blade, its a good build only @ tourney/pro lvl to throw in if your doing best of 3/5 vs the same player to throw him off.....I don't see it viable in the ladder very often, many zergs have been scouting early and they can just throw down a gas to counter this and grab some early speedlings/roaches to deter your early presure or throw down some spines @ the 3rd or cancle the 3rd and go for a 2 base timming.
Also ladder has smaller maps then the gsl line up. |
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| ahmyyyyd Germany. July 13 2012 07:51. Posts 47 | Profile Blog # | |
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