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| the p00n Netherlands. July 14 2012 01:59. Posts 533 | Profile # |
Please do not reply to this topic with criticism if you are below master league. Yes, it is very elitist, but you probably don't know what you are talking about.
+ Show Spoiler +
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Introduction
The 'easy wins' part of the title may rustle some jimmies and 'easy' is a relative term (what one may find easy another may find difficult), but this is a build that requires very little thought, micromanagement and innovation compared to other builds. According to sc2gears I have exactly 92% winrate against Zerg, and the majority of my 8% losses (as far as I remember) is because I failed to scout a spire and suddenly 12 muta pop up in my main's mineral line while my army is at the front. Go figure.
The Build
Open up with your favorite FFE. I used to dislike FFE, but the maps have changed quite a lot since I formed that opinion. So I re-thought it, did some tests and I now believe that FFE is superior to gateway openings.
I recommend chronoboosting a zealot or keeping your scouting probe alive to check for the zerg's 3rd base. Remember that some 2base all-ins can be quite difficult to hold if you don't scout them in time, and you don't wanna get caught with just one cannon and a sentry now do you? If you see him 2-basing you may wanna spend an extra chrono on your gateway, create an extra cannon, create an extra sentry... you know the drill, seeing as the FFE is a very dominant PvZ opening I assume you know these basics so I won't really get into them.
After your cybernetics core, you immediately want to throw down a stargate and chrono a void ray, followed by a phoenix that is also chrono'd. It is important to constantly chrono the stargate so you can get the scouting information as soon as possible. Even though this is important I don't do it so much because I'm a greedy bastard and chrono all my probes, but chrono'ing is the optimal play.
The void ray is for some very basic map control. Kill an overlord floating around your base, harass the zerglings in front of your ramp so he isn't entirely sure when you will move out, clear the xel naga towers and perhaps stop a creep tumor or two. Basic stuff. Now with your phoenix you are going to fly over his 3 bases to see what he is doing. Conventional zerg timings involve at least 2 gases at 6:00ish and a roach warren somewhere between 6:45 and 7:30, usually at 7:10ish. At 8:30ish you will reach his base. His lair should still be morphing and speed should be almost done or just finished (you can check this with your void ray, he should have his lings out on the map). You should see a roach warren too, and the evolution chamber will most likely be dancing ('dancing' is the term used for seeing the animation a building has when it is upgrading or building).
So, things to look for at 8:30:
- lair morphing
- speed not done but being researched, pool dancing
- roach warren finished
- evo chamber dancing
What if the lair has already been completed? It's possible that he swapped the order of research with zergling speed. Although I personally think it is retarded to get lair before metabolic boost, some zergs do it anyway. This makes for a slightly faster lair. If his lair is already finished you should see if his roach warren is dancing. If it is not dancing that means he is doing something fishy or mutalishky and is up to no good. Either that or he literally is no good. You could also see if his lair is dancing, he may be researching drop tech or burrow. Ideally you just want to look for a spire, that's a pretty sure-sign he is going muta. Make 3 to 5 phoenixes and a few cannons in your mineral lines and continue as normal (read below).
Meanwhile, back at home, you should immediately throw down a fleet beacon in an obscure location (try to hide it to the best of your ability, a lot of zergs fly overlords into your base). The fleet beacon should be placed down after your void ray or your phoenix has been queued up, depending on how you managed your gas. While the fleet beacon is building you should have the minerals to throw down some additional gateways, I usually get about 3 or 4. Make sure you have enough minerals to queue up the mothership as soon as your fleet beacon finishes! Make a mothership and chrono it constantly. After you have queued up your mothership, throw down a twilight council. Now you can either try to take your 3rd and then throw down some additional gateways, (it should be 9ish minutes by now) or you can throw down some additional gateways and then try to take your third. 8ish gateways is enough. If you did a good job with your void ray and your opponent doesn't have lings at your entrance/third/xel nagas/etc. you can try to take your third, make some cannons while it is building. It's also pretty map dependent, it will be harder on daybreak than on condemned ridge for example. After the twilight council is done research charge and throw down templar archives. Now comes the fun part: sit on 3 bases and go to 200/200 on only archons and zealots. If you feel like it you can take a 4th too. Don't bother with harassing or any fancy stuff just sit there and go 200/200 off 6 gas archons. Make a warp prism so you can reinforce easily.
Summarized build flow
- FFE
- stargate right after c-core
- queue up 1 void ray and 1 phoenix, chrono stargate constantly
- throw down a fleet beacon after you queued up your void ray or phoenix
- while fleet beacon is building, add a few additional gateways (3 to 4)
- queue up mothership and constantly chrono, throw down twilight council after
- somewhere around here you will want to start +1 weapons, then +2, then +3
- add gateways until you have about 8 and take your 3rd or reverse these two
- when twilight council finishes, research charge and throw down templar archives
- make some archons and zealots, then throw down a robo facility for obs/warp prism
- now you're on 3 bases you want more gateways, I usually have 16 to 20 gateways when on a full 3 bases
- sit on your ass until 200/200
- a-move across the map like a boss. Creep, spines, broodlords, infestors etc. shouldn't matter
FAQ
+ Show Spoiler +Q: How do I deal with 'stephano-style' 3-base mass roach/ling timing at my 3rd?
A: Vortex his army and send in your 2-3 archons (about as much as you'll have) and zealots, he should be around 160 supply and you should be around 90-100. Don't forget to warp in zealots and new archons after you have vortexed his army, it can be quite tempting to just stare at the wonderful vortex with idle gateways but this may result in defeat.
Q: How do I deal with mutalisks?
A: Mutalisks is the only thing that is remotely viable against this build. Add cannons to your mineral lines and spread a bit. You just go for 200/200 but the difficulty in doing so is slightly increased because he's gonna be annoying with mutas.
Q: What about banelings?
A: In theory it seems great because you can counter vortex with banelings but it doesn't actually do that much. If you are really scared you can research storm and win for sure but from my experience it's not necessary, a-move is sufficient.
Q: Ultralisks?
A: Doesn't do anything.
Q: Mass infestor/broodlord?
A: Broodlords are actually pretty bad units in direct combat, but they rely very heavily on their range and on messing up the pathing of your units. If you can circumvent the 35968 broodlings blocking your way you will win easily, and the way to circumvent this is to double vortex the brood lords. As long as your mothership doesn't get neural parasited (followed by him wasting your 2 vortexes) the infestors can be pretty much ignored.
Q: Mass mass mass 3/3 roach kiting on creep?
A: A-move with vortex, I know that this sounds like a good counter to zealot/archon in theory but the brutal truth is that it is the worst thing the zerg can do and it is the easiest thing to deal with.
Q: Mass cracklings?
A: gooby pls
Replays
vs. roach/hydra/ling timing at my 3rd
I actually lose my mothership here (which was 100% unnecessary, just wasn't paying attention and playing at 70 apm). Opponent was 'favored'.
vs. muta
Really annoying.
vs. close air burrowed roach drops
I think this guy was trying to win a prize for being as annoying as possible. Not only roach drops, but also with burrow. Also apparently he doesn't like my mother. Opponent was playing random so I couldn't open forge, it's basically the same thing though.
IMPORTANT
The #1 reason people fail with this build is because they do not preserve their archons. Zergs will try to trade roaches while building up their economy. They can trade as much as they want, as long as they are trading roaches for zealots. If you run out of zealots, do not engage anymore as the next fight will allow him to trade roaches for archons. The trick is to slowly build up your archon count while trading zealots if the zerg is being aggressive. If you have a large fight which you decisively win, you actually cannot push for the win if you lost the majority of your zealots, as the zerg remax will trade for your archons. Just sit back and build up your zealot count again (usually 1, sometimes 2 warp-ins are enough if you have sufficient gateways).
Additionally, before you a-move at 200/200 you may want to type 'IT'S RUSTLIN' TIME' in all-caps in [all]-chat.
DISCLAIMER: if your opponent masses spine crawlers in the middle of the map you have to play it out slow and not just herpderp into 50 spines, get stargates, +3/+3 air, +3 shields, psionic storm and aaaallllllllll of the bases on your side of the mapLast edit: 2012-07-17 09:47:43 |
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| 9-BiT United States. July 14 2012 02:03. Posts 425 | Profile Blog # |
| Interesting....... I guess? The build looks fun, and yes, it will probably get a lot of cheap wins, but I don't think this is a legitimate build.... |
| | [QUOTE][B]On September 24 2012 01:14 AcesAnoka wrote:[/B] based fucking smuGG[/QUOTE] |
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| the p00n Netherlands. July 14 2012 02:09. Posts 533 | Profile # |
On July 14 2012 02:03 9-BiT wrote:
Interesting....... I guess? The build looks fun, and yes, it will probably get a lot of cheap wins, but I don't think this is a legitimate build....
I have 92% winrate and most of the games used to calculate that winrate are from back when I was at grandmaster MMR, and I am currently playing at mid-master. I have replays where I beat people such as glsnute/infsJRecco who are currently top 20 grandmaster (snute is #8). I can include them if you want to but they are from a while ago and I do not think they are that relevant. I also have repeat wins in ladder against grandmaster and high master zergs who already know what I am going to do, but still fail to win against it.Last edit: 2012-07-14 02:09:53 |
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 Arcanefrost Belgium. July 14 2012 02:13. Posts 1119 | Profile Blog # |
| Mothership on 2 bases doesn't work. If the zerg makes fast corruptors he can snipe it before you have the energy to vortex, and your archon count isn't high enough yet to stop them. With your mothership dead it becomes near impossible to take a third, and it only goes downhill from there. |
| | Valor is a poor substitute for numbers. |
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| the p00n Netherlands. July 14 2012 02:16. Posts 533 | Profile # |
On July 14 2012 02:13 Arcanefrost wrote:
Mothership on 2 bases doesn't work. If the zerg makes fast corruptors he can snipe it before you have the energy to vortex, and your archon count isn't high enough yet to stop them. With your mothership dead it becomes near impossible to take a third, and it only goes downhill from there.
This is incorrect. He cannot have enough corruptors and ground forces. Keep in mind that the mothership has 700 combined hitpoints with 2 base armor and that archons deal heavy splash damage, and you have a void ray in there too. Nothing prevents you from moving your mothership a bit back, corruptors only have 6 range and will be shot at by archons/cannons. His window is extremely limited as well as you will get 50 energy extremely quickly, which is enough for 1 vortex combined with your starting energy.Last edit: 2012-07-14 02:17:56 |
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| reikai United States. July 14 2012 02:22. Posts 312 | Profile # |
| I agree; if you lose the mothership to a corruptor snipe before gaining 50 energy, it's your fault. You shouldn't lose it that easily. |
| | Et Ducit Mundum Per Luce. :T: |
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| SergioCQH United States. July 14 2012 02:23. Posts 114 | Profile # |
This build will roll over and die to drop play.
User was warned for this post |
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| Lolsoup United States. July 14 2012 02:30. Posts 11 | Profile # |
| Neat build, i'll definitely give it a shot. Do you think it's possible to forego the void ray in favor of more phoenix, and use those for map control + harassment? |
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| the p00n Netherlands. July 14 2012 02:32. Posts 533 | Profile # |
On July 14 2012 02:30 Lolsoup wrote:
Neat build, i'll definitely give it a shot. Do you think it's possible to forego the void ray in favor of more phoenix, and use those for map control + harassment?
No that is not possible. The void ray is essential seeing as it fends off the earliest of earliest roach attacks that do not have any anti air with them. You also need a way to clear key parts of the map, such as xel naga towers, the lings just outside your base, at your 3rd, overlords around your base etc. |
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| -Kira July 14 2012 02:38. Posts 352 | Profile Blog # |
On July 14 2012 02:23 SergioCQH wrote:
This build will roll over and die to drop play.
User was warned for this post
Nope. People don't realize how good zealots are. This build doesn't rely on FF's and ranged units as much as standard play and it makes it stronger vs drop play which basicly forces direct combat (for which zealots are better suited) |
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| Primal666 Slovenia. July 14 2012 02:41. Posts 386 | Profile # |
what about roach hydra infestor?
or roach hydra timing
or ling/roahc and bling drops
i dunno it doesnt seem awfully strong if you scout it, tho i'd probably lose to it 1st time.
edit: also what about upgrades, with that gas usage, you shouldnt be ahed should you?Last edit: 2012-07-14 02:44:56 |
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| Clarity_nl Netherlands. July 14 2012 02:44. Posts 3283 | Profile # |
This guide needs more memes and less intellect.
Nothing but mutas is even close to viable against this build... really?Last edit: 2012-07-14 02:45:08 |
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| Insomni7 July 14 2012 03:11. Posts 615 | Profile # |
| I mean what you are doing is playing for a lategame composition as far as I can tell. You are getting an optimal composition off of 3 base. Still I would imagine by the time you attack the zerg would also be rolling broodlord infestor and it just comes down to a micro war. It seems like your strategy is very much to coax the zerg into a bad attack with such a weird build. If they just stay as passive as you, Id guess it would come down to BL spread, fungals, vortexes, spines ect. same as always. |
| | "Lay the egg, become the god" |
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| the p00n Netherlands. July 14 2012 03:17. Posts 533 | Profile # |
On July 14 2012 03:11 Insomni7 wrote:
I mean what you are doing is playing for a lategame composition as far as I can tell. You are getting an optimal composition off of 3 base. Still I would imagine by the time you attack the zerg would also be rolling broodlord infestor and it just comes down to a micro war. It seems like your strategy is very much to coax the zerg into a bad attack with such a weird build. If they just stay as passive as you, Id guess it would come down to BL spread, fungals, vortexes, spines ect. same as always.
If they stay as passive as me then I can probably get a 4th base, and 8gas archon 200/200 will win no matter what. At this point it becomes irrelevant on how many bases the zerg is on or on what units he can remax simply because he cannot even chip away at your 200/200 divinegoddeathball. Additionally, if you are of the tryhard kind, you can have 2 warp-prisms on the map and warp in 20 zealots at a spot where he won't have army and destroy a base. A gun is enough to kill a man, this simple a-move build is the gun. If for whatever reason you need a large rifle or a cannon or a bazooka you can do that too (warp prism drops become nigh uncounterable lategame, so do mass carriers with psionic storm). It's just not really necessary. |
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| Insomni7 July 14 2012 03:27. Posts 615 | Profile # |
On July 14 2012 03:17 the p00n wrote:
Show nested quote +On July 14 2012 03:11 Insomni7 wrote:
I mean what you are doing is playing for a lategame composition as far as I can tell. You are getting an optimal composition off of 3 base. Still I would imagine by the time you attack the zerg would also be rolling broodlord infestor and it just comes down to a micro war. It seems like your strategy is very much to coax the zerg into a bad attack with such a weird build. If they just stay as passive as you, Id guess it would come down to BL spread, fungals, vortexes, spines ect. same as always.
If they stay as passive as me then I can probably get a 4th base, and 8gas archon 200/200 will win no matter what. At this point it becomes irrelevant on how many bases the zerg is on or on what units he can remax simply because he cannot even chip away at your 200/200 divinegoddeathball. Additionally, if you are of the tryhard kind, you can have 2 warp-prisms on the map and warp in 20 zealots at a spot where he won't have army and destroy a base. A gun is enough to kill a man, this simple a-move build is the gun. If for whatever reason you need a large rifle or a cannon or a bazooka you can do that too (warp prism drops become nigh uncounterable lategame, so do mass carriers with psionic storm). It's just not really necessary.
This gives you a strong composition, but it all still comes down to the pvz lategame. If you are comfortable with that stage of the matchup it is a fine build, but there are many zergs who are equally comfortable there. Ofc there are many things strong in the lategame like warpprisms but that is all standard stuff. Your army is strong, but it isnt significantly stronger than the zerg if he has gone right up to BL infestor. If you fight it still comes down to micro. |
| | "Lay the egg, become the god" |
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| Nyast Belgium. July 14 2012 03:30. Posts 501 | Profile # |
Nice guide, will try it, thanks for posting.
6 months ago I was doing a variant of it, the idea was similar but without the stargate/mothership. I found out that roaches/infestors were actually decent at countering it provided that upgrades were equal. Of course, at that time, one difference is that taking the third without a mothership was pretty hard, which forced sentries and immortals before I could fully transition into chargelots/archons. I guess that with that build you can directly go into chargelots/archons with the mothership, so the idea is kindda neat.
Last edit: 2012-07-14 03:32:46 |
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| Nyast Belgium. July 14 2012 03:32. Posts 501 | Profile # |
| Btw, do you continue to add voidrays afterwards ? It sounds like voidrays would nicely complement this compo. Last edit: 2012-07-14 03:32:55 |
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| the p00n Netherlands. July 14 2012 03:38. Posts 533 | Profile # |
On July 14 2012 03:27 Insomni7 wrote:
Show nested quote +On July 14 2012 03:17 the p00n wrote:
On July 14 2012 03:11 Insomni7 wrote:
I mean what you are doing is playing for a lategame composition as far as I can tell. You are getting an optimal composition off of 3 base. Still I would imagine by the time you attack the zerg would also be rolling broodlord infestor and it just comes down to a micro war. It seems like your strategy is very much to coax the zerg into a bad attack with such a weird build. If they just stay as passive as you, Id guess it would come down to BL spread, fungals, vortexes, spines ect. same as always.
If they stay as passive as me then I can probably get a 4th base, and 8gas archon 200/200 will win no matter what. At this point it becomes irrelevant on how many bases the zerg is on or on what units he can remax simply because he cannot even chip away at your 200/200 divinegoddeathball. Additionally, if you are of the tryhard kind, you can have 2 warp-prisms on the map and warp in 20 zealots at a spot where he won't have army and destroy a base. A gun is enough to kill a man, this simple a-move build is the gun. If for whatever reason you need a large rifle or a cannon or a bazooka you can do that too (warp prism drops become nigh uncounterable lategame, so do mass carriers with psionic storm). It's just not really necessary.
This gives you a strong composition, but it all still comes down to the pvz lategame. If you are comfortable with that stage of the matchup it is a fine build, but there are many zergs who are equally comfortable there. Ofc there are many things strong in the lategame like warpprisms but that is all standard stuff. Your army is strong, but it isnt significantly stronger than the zerg if he has gone right up to BL infestor. If you fight it still comes down to micro.
It seems that you are under the impression that the game is perfectly balanced with no clear advantage (slight at best) at the lategame. This is not true. Lategame Z cannot beat the lategame of the other races provided they have all their economy and infrastructure up.
An example would be ZvT. I often win lategame T as Z, but I am usually facing MMM or 3/3 thor/tank/hellion with vikings. If I was facing 3/3 battlecruiser/viking with mass raven, I would certainly lose the game. It is however extremely hard for a terran to suddenly pull 15-20 full energy BCs out of his ass with 3/3 and a lot of full energy ravens accompanied with that, there's no real effective way to transition into that (at least not that I know of).
The same is true for ZvP. If the P has a lot of high templars with storms and a bunch of 3/3 carriers and a mothership, there is actually nothing you can do. The same is true for a 200/200 energy mothership with 200/200 3/0 archon behind it, and that is actually attainable - it's not only attainable, it's quite easy in fact if you follow this build. Normal ZvP endgame, although already protoss favored (please don't argue this), is not unwinnable for a zerg. Walls of spines/spores, infestors, broodlords would all do well. That is not true for this composition.
On July 14 2012 03:32 Nyast wrote:
Btw, do you continue to add voidrays afterwards ? It sounds like voidrays would nicely complement this compo.
I don't continue to add void rays as it is not necessary for me to win. If you are creating a nice painting you do not have to use every brush in your atelier/repertoire either, even though they may be really good brushes and can have positive effects on your painting. If you want to add void rays, then you can totally do that.Last edit: 2012-07-14 03:39:52 |
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| Arcanefrost Belgium. July 14 2012 03:38. Posts 1119 | Profile Blog # |
On July 14 2012 02:16 the p00n wrote:
Show nested quote +On July 14 2012 02:13 Arcanefrost wrote:
Mothership on 2 bases doesn't work. If the zerg makes fast corruptors he can snipe it before you have the energy to vortex, and your archon count isn't high enough yet to stop them. With your mothership dead it becomes near impossible to take a third, and it only goes downhill from there.
This is incorrect. He cannot have enough corruptors and ground forces. Keep in mind that the mothership has 700 combined hitpoints with 2 base armor and that archons deal heavy splash damage, and you have a void ray in there too. Nothing prevents you from moving your mothership a bit back, corruptors only have 6 range and will be shot at by archons/cannons. His window is extremely limited as well as you will get 50 energy extremely quickly, which is enough for 1 vortex combined with your starting energy.
He just makes corruptors first, snipes your ms as it pops and then proceeds to transition into roachmax which denies your third. Hasuobs also said this once during a cast. |
| | Valor is a poor substitute for numbers. |
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| the p00n Netherlands. July 14 2012 03:44. Posts 533 | Profile # |
On July 14 2012 03:38 Arcanefrost wrote:
Show nested quote +On July 14 2012 02:16 the p00n wrote:
On July 14 2012 02:13 Arcanefrost wrote:
Mothership on 2 bases doesn't work. If the zerg makes fast corruptors he can snipe it before you have the energy to vortex, and your archon count isn't high enough yet to stop them. With your mothership dead it becomes near impossible to take a third, and it only goes downhill from there.
This is incorrect. He cannot have enough corruptors and ground forces. Keep in mind that the mothership has 700 combined hitpoints with 2 base armor and that archons deal heavy splash damage, and you have a void ray in there too. Nothing prevents you from moving your mothership a bit back, corruptors only have 6 range and will be shot at by archons/cannons. His window is extremely limited as well as you will get 50 energy extremely quickly, which is enough for 1 vortex combined with your starting energy.
He just makes corruptors first, snipes your ms as it pops and then proceeds to transition into roachmax which denies your third. Hasuobs also said this once during a cast.
What you are describing is not possible, no matter how much you want it to be. I do remember the HasuObs cast where he said this, but he was incorrect as well (or not using the proper build).
The mothership will pop between 10 and 11 minutes. You will need a ridiculous amount of corruptors before 12-13 minutes (that is when I get 100 energy and can vortex your corruptors, and then instantly kill them by means of an archon toilet. Remember that the few seconds of invulnerability that was added after exiting the vortex is not as relevant to air units, as air units spread much slower than ground units.) Also, I can just move the mothership back.Last edit: 2012-07-14 03:45:14 |
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