The overall best solo hero?

NOTE: The word solo in this context does not mean able to take a lane alone, it is ment when you play alone, not with a 5man team, so basicly laddering solo. Sorry for the confusion this caused, however I could not think of a good way to phrase what I ment in the title, and stupidly forgot to clarify once I began writing this OP. It is a problem I was aware of, but uncertain how to solve, so I decided to attempt explaining it if the problem arised instead, my apologies again! This is why Dark Seer, Broodmother, Sylla etc are very quickly dismissed as viable heroes to discuss in this thread by me, and I would appreciate if by everyone.

I have for quite a while now been thinking about which hero to pick and stick with, and I have always wanted the hero that lets me win more the better I play, and let me control my own wins or losses.

The first thing I found obvious was that it needs to be a mid hero, as this hero will be overall the most powerful and game influensing.

After over thousand games spent on heroes like Invoker, Windrunner, Shadowfiend, Storm Spirit etc I finally landed on tinker primarly.

Tinker has been the hero I have mainly played the past 400 games or so, having nearly 300 of them with him alone !

However as of recently I have increasingly doubted if he is the optimal play, even though,he offers me: an early, early-mid game supremecy while still maintaining strong in the late game which I initially figured would make him the optimal choice overall.

But nowadays my mind constantly think about Shadowfiend and Storm Spirit in particular, whom both bring things to the table that tinker can only dream of.

So I will now try to shortly summarize my impressions of them, and then would like help picking one of the three in the end.

Tinker;
Pros:
-Strong early game and into the start of mid with his nukes
once he hits dagger/force got good escape, but very dependent on positioning before that to not die,
-Possibly the best hero for 1v1 late game as once opponents BKB wears off his permasheep and tons of nukes will bring any hero down
-Great at making sidelanes stronger through ganks
-Incredible mid presence, being excellent at dominating the mid lane
-Very good at stopping enemy pushes through rocket spam to bring them down, quick teleport to a lane and march it then the next, or just march spam at a tower to make the enemy unable to attack into it
Cons:
-Weak auto attack, so reliant on his spells
-No escape before dagger/force, and even then limited by the restrictions of dagger against stealthers or the range of force against blinkers or even some non-blinkers
-Mostly unable to take down several opponents by himself
-Less than average at getting towers down by himself, only able to deal with the opposing creep wave
-Not the lategame of shadowfiend

Personally: Getting a feeling of not being powerful enough mid-late despite playing excellently; that if I had been in a similar position as one of the other two heroes victory would be far more certain.

Shadowfiend;
Pros:
-A solid mid game if early went well, but still capable of getting back in if early went bad.
-A strong late game, being an AoE-carry
-Very capable of taking down several heroes by himself due to his AoE ulti and more importantly his strong auto attack
-Against tougher opponents can be built quite safe through combinations of manta/bkb/dagger, having a good movespeed, illusions which also can take him out of a lot of spells when activated, spell immunity or the blink like tinker.
-Good at taking down towers since he clears a creep wave in 2 spells and his auto attack being so powerful it quickly brings towers down.
-An average mid presence, being able to pose a threat with his nukes and strong autoattack
-Strong at defense due to his ultimate, and his ability to quickly deal with creep waves as to prevent the enemy from pushing in
Cons:
-Fragile early game and being known for his strong late is heavily and frequently ganked early on, with the lack of any escape at all he is very prone to death during this part of the game.
-Far less likely to strengthen sidelanes through ganks, and thus less able to stop a powerful enemy hero on the sidelanes.
-An average mid presence, being able to pose a threat with his nukes and strong autoattack only so not likely to scare the other hero away, however capable of last hitting and denying very well

Personally: The hero I am most optimistic about, between his powerful autoattack making him able to take down several opponents, his gamechanging ulties in teamfights, his ability to solo win the game if at a big enough advantage and good survivability once farmed his core he is very appealing as a choice. However the rather steep mastery curve with his fragile early and difficult nukes have made me not invest the necessary time to discover if he is a better choice.

Storm Spirit;
Pros:
-Strong from lvl 6 and outwards, completely doable to always reach that safely
-One of the games best escapes through his ulti and when played well nearly unkillable due to it
-A strong late game with hex/silence and a well charged bloodstone being nearly unkillable at all times and being able to engage, take down and snipe opponents
-A good ganker once he hits lvl 6 and can efficiently help sidelanes
-Excellent rune control once he gets his ulti, able to roll ahead of the enemy mid hero and snatch the rune giving in many a case a big advantage
Cons:
-No strong mid presence, often unable to prevent in any meaningful degree the other mid hero's goals
-Weak at taking down towers due to his auto attack mostly being powered by his passive that does not work on towers, and not very effective at dealing with creep waves quickly
-More reliant on partners for a great early game in ganks due to lacking manapool to continously stay on the enemy, were as tinker and shadowfiend can do a lot more solo kills
-More on par with tinker for his lategame

Personally: I very much like his strong escape, and the potential power if one reaches that bloodstone with a lot of charges, however it feels like too much effort for too little award in his play at all times in comparison to tinker or shadowfiend

Notes:
-I have most definetly forgotten several points in pros and cons for all heroes, so feel free to help by pointing them out!
-Any part of the OP that could need a cleaning up? Point it out and I will see what I can do!

Now please give opinions and tips on which hero you feel is overall superior for solo play, that offers the highest chance to win when played well, and why it does that best !

Last edit: 2012-07-15 19:18:29

"Between Tomorrow's dream and yesterday's regret, is today's opportunity"

Unleashing Denmark. July 15 2012 11:27. Posts 2418

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I'm not in the mood to write a lot, so.
Basically i always try to pick as late as possible and pick what fits the situation, and i'll try to pick according to what my enemies are picking and what they'll put solo against me.
I dislike going into a game with a mentality of what hero to play, i prefer mid or solo lanes as well and i quite enjoy Queen of pain because she has good rune control and even just one level in shadow strike gives incredible lane dominance, IMO.
I also feel that it only takes a few early kills to let her snowball with EXP, since a quick level 11 on QoP can decimate enemies easily.

But honestly, it most depends on what's already been picked, to me atleast.

Last edit: 2012-07-15 11:27:47

"Back then teams that won were credited, now it's called throw. I think it's sad." - KuroKy

NTTemplar July 15 2012 11:36. Posts 351

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I dislike splitting my focus between several heroes at any one time for same reason I don't play random in SC2.
Ones skill drasticly drops when switching between such different heroes, and it will require far more playing to achieve the same level with several heroes as with one hero.

I am very fond of playing against pros at their skill, if only with 1 hero, I still enjoy that a lot or just being the clear dominating player in every game. And I would not be remotely capable of that if splitting my focus between several heroes.

I have tried QoP and though very capable with her strong early-mid game as you pointed out, falls short in the lategame like invoker and windrunner, being unable to carry in anyway which all three of the heroes I wrote about are capable of.

I just feel QoP compared to the three heroes I ended up with falls short.

"Between Tomorrow's dream and yesterday's regret, is today's opportunity"

paper July 15 2012 11:36. Posts 10723

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I personally like QOP

-- nearly guaranteed rune control, versatile item/skill builds, strong farm potential into carry, can easily gank/chase

A lot of people fall short with queen because they fail to get a DPS item like MKB or desolator and stack items that are countered by BKB :\

Last edit: 2012-07-15 11:37:48

andReslic July 15 2012 11:41. Posts 200

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Solo? maybe Invoker, QoP, weaver.
They can escape too easy, Shadowfiend & tinker are too easy to gank unless they get the items they need but they are very weak early game.

Itsmedudeman United States. July 15 2012 11:41. Posts 8561

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A hero isn't gonna be good at every stage of the game... but if you can take an early game lead you'll still be strong late. QoP dominates early game more than any other hero I think, and I've heard blitz say the same. Stormspirit is also really strong, but not as good early before 6.

Unleashing Denmark. July 15 2012 11:45. Posts 2418

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Queen of pain most definitely doesn't fall short lategame.
She still has amazing mobility along with decent stat gain and quite decent attack range.
It's not as though storm spirit has any magical scaling that makes him a better lategamer than QoP, they're both great heroes in their own way.

And idk why you want to specialize with one hero, but whatever floats your boat.
You'll have a much easier time winning your games if you pick according to the situation, though.

Last edit: 2012-07-15 11:46:38

"Back then teams that won were credited, now it's called throw. I think it's sad." - KuroKy

NTTemplar July 15 2012 11:48. Posts 351

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On July 15 2012 11:41 andReslic wrote:
Solo? maybe Invoker, QoP, weaver.
They can escape too easy, Shadowfiend & tinker are too easy to gank unless they get the items they need but they are very weak early game.

Shadowfiend and tinker are more reliant on strong mapawareness and positioning, true, but once those skills are at a good level they are not easily ganked. Also tinker often will be the ganker, thus not being in danger of that himself, along with his laser blinding and nukes dealing a lot of damage is a dangerous hero to gank early on.

Invoker and QoP falls short in the lategame in comparison to the three mentioned, weaver falls short early-mid game.

On July 15 2012 11:41 Itsmedudeman wrote:
A hero isn't gonna be good at every stage of the game... but if you can take an early game lead you'll still be strong late. QoP dominates early game more than any other hero I think, and I've heard blitz say the same. Stormspirit is also really strong, but not as good early before 6.

I do feel tinkers strength at the very least persists throughout the game, from early to late, though peaking at certain points of course, but never being weak.

Shadowfiend I am less experianced with, and his early game is fragile, despite being able to deal a lot of AoE damage quickly with his three nukes however his mid and in particular late game from my PoV seems quite enchanced when compared to tinker.

Stormspirit is also a strong example of a good hero from early to late as I see it, though the very first 6 levels can be dangerous, it isn't nearly the same.

However QoP as mentioned above just falls short late game, and in comparison to e.g. tinker seems overall like a worse choice. Being pretty much even with tinker early through mid and beaten by him in team fights and ganks late.

On July 15 2012 11:45 Unleashing wrote:
Queen of pain most definitely doesn't fall short lategame.
She still has amazing mobility along with decent stat gain and quite decent attack range.
It's not as though storm spirit has any magical scaling that makes him a better lategamer than QoP, they're both great heroes in their own way.

And idk why you want to specialize with one hero, but whatever floats your boat.
You'll have a much easier time winning your games if you pick according to the situation, though.

A storm spirit with a charged bloodstone by far outperforms QoP lategame, but I agree he is behind both tinker and Shadowfiend. Main interest in him was his survivability.

edit: grammar

Last edit: 2012-07-15 11:56:23

"Between Tomorrow's dream and yesterday's regret, is today's opportunity"

Itsmedudeman United States. July 15 2012 11:51. Posts 8561

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Tinker is not anywhere near as good in the early and mid game compared to QoP. This isn't a matter of opinion actually.

NTTemplar July 15 2012 11:54. Posts 351

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On July 15 2012 11:51 Itsmedudeman wrote:
Tinker is not anywhere near as good in the early and mid game compared to QoP. This isn't a matter of opinion actually.

I have played quite a lot of QoP's, in my experiance they have been unable to compete with tinker.

So to my confusion, I ask you, how so?

"Between Tomorrow's dream and yesterday's regret, is today's opportunity"

13_Doomblaze_37 United States. July 15 2012 12:01. Posts 705

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QoP has much more teamfight potential and burst damage then tinker, as well as having blink. Tinker can double nuke, but early game after double nuke +rearm + 1 more set of missiles, he has to TP back to base, qop can ss scream wave blink chase scream and kill 3 heros at once. She is much faster around the map (before BoTs) and has almost guarenteed rune control, making ganking easier. Scream hits through invis, unlike rocket, and hits many targets.

If you gank tinker twice early game he's fucked for like 20 minutes, you cant gank QoP

Also when I play QoP i tend to get first blood around level 3-4 because people underestimate how good ss and blink are. Never done that with tinker.

Last edit: 2012-07-15 12:03:01

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Unleashing Denmark. July 15 2012 12:04. Posts 2418

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On July 15 2012 11:48 NTTemplar wrote:
A storm spirit with a charged bloodstone by far outperforms QoP lategame, but I agree he is behind both tinker and Shadowfiend. Main interest in him was his survivability.

I'll ask.
How does the storm spirit outperform the QoP?
He has lower range and neither of them really have any great scaling.
Sure, storm has the higher mobility, but as far as lategame goes, QoP and storm fulfill two different roles, it's like saying that faceless void outperforms chaos knight at carrying, well yes? One is a hard carry the other isn't.
They are both great heroes lategame in what they do. Just like nature's prophet is an amazing hero, even lategame.

QoP has plenty of strengths, like having some of the highest midgame burst which lets her get far far ahead of anyone in the game if you play her well in pubs.
Being that far ahead means that you just win the game.
That's how it goes for me with QoP, i dominate my lane completely and gank, get ahead and suddenly i won the game because i'm 5~7 levels higher than almost all my opponents and i have a lot more farm.

Last edit: 2012-07-15 12:05:46

"Back then teams that won were credited, now it's called throw. I think it's sad." - KuroKy

NTTemplar July 15 2012 12:13. Posts 351

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On July 15 2012 12:01 13_Doomblaze_37 wrote:
QoP has much more teamfight potential and burst damage then tinker, as well as having blink. Tinker can double nuke, but early game after double nuke +rearm + 1 more set of missiles, he has to TP back to base, qop can ss scream wave blink chase scream and kill 3 heros at once. She is much faster around the map (before BoTs) and has almost guarenteed rune control, making ganking easier. Scream hits through invis, unlike rocket, and hits many targets.

If you gank tinker twice early game he's fucked for like 20 minutes, you cant gank QoP

Also when I play QoP i tend to get first blood around level 3-4 because people underestimate how good ss and blink are. Never done that with tinker.

Teamfights I primarly consider late game, and at that point a tinker brings far more to the table through multihexing, laser with blind and rockets rearmed, and most likely a dagon/shiva for more damage or linken for survivability makes him deal excellent damage and able to disable several key opponents, and tinkers burst damage with a dagon oriented play by far outclass QoP in the late game.

Valid point on his early game I do agree, QoP is at an advantage for hero killing there, but her ability to kill three heroes at once is about the same as tinkers, as she still is relying on teammates to engage 3 heroes if she doesn't wish to be killed quite quickly, also of course valid points on rune control and map control pre-BoT's tinker.

However in my experiance she can't beat tinker in the mid, and giving tinker that will allow him a quick BoT, and tinker is by far not an easy hero to gank mid, due to his high damage burst and lasers miss chance, there is a good possibility everytime one ganks him that one of you die in the process, making tinker gain a kill at the very least.

He is also by far not fucked from two small ganks early on for 20 minutes.

But a good point that QoP, much like storm, has a very safe early game through their escapes.

"Between Tomorrow's dream and yesterday's regret, is today's opportunity"

NTTemplar July 15 2012 12:17. Posts 351

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On July 15 2012 12:04 Unleashing wrote:

Show nested quote +

Yes, they fulfill two different roles, one that is far more reliant on teammates to succeed than the other. A well played QoP will still rely heavily on her teammates to play well to succeed, compared to a storm spirit that is a far better carry.

Sure her early game outperforms storm by a huge margin, but she isn't guaranteed the victory from a huge success early game, however storm isn't either I agree, though he benefits more, neither are a shadowfiend or a tinker.

I feel good points have been made against stormspirit and I am feeling more and more confident my first estimation that he isn't the right choice is correct.

"Between Tomorrow's dream and yesterday's regret, is today's opportunity"

rabidch Singapore. July 15 2012 12:20. Posts 8127

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queen of pain is the most versatile. 1v1 i'd probably go with obsidian destroyer except against a handful of heroes

you can gank most other heroes. clinkz is a better option than shadowfiend as well

thug life.

Itsmedudeman United States. July 15 2012 12:25. Posts 8561

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On July 15 2012 11:54 NTTemplar wrote:

Show nested quote +

I have played quite a lot of QoP's, in my experiance they have been unable to compete with tinker.

So to my confusion, I ask you, how so?

I don't know what level you play at, but tinker simply cannot compete in any realm in the early game.

Rune control, harass, ganking, nukes, escapes all favor qop. If you're going for a gank and the opposing heroes are off the tower you can be 90% sure they're gonna die.

Last edit: 2012-07-15 12:25:42

PrinceXizor United States. July 15 2012 12:30. Posts 4435

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Don't forget that tinker has a 100% winrate in the starladder finals.

Enzymatic Canada. July 15 2012 12:32. Posts 853

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There is really no "best" hero to solo with. Different Heroes counter different heroes. Its a game of rock-paper-scissors in many cases with solo v.s solo, or solo v.s Dual-lane, etc.

Very strong solo heroes:

- Batrider
- SF
- QoP
- Broodmother
- Windrunner (though she isn't popular mid solo really).
- AA
- Bane is good (though to gank).
- Invoker
- Storm Spirit

Last edit: 2012-07-15 12:33:24

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NTTemplar July 15 2012 12:57. Posts 351

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On July 15 2012 12:20 rabidch wrote:
queen of pain is the most versatile. 1v1 i'd probably go with obsidian destroyer except against a handful of heroes

you can gank most other heroes. clinkz is a better option than shadowfiend as well

Obsidian seems like an odd choice, heavily dependent on farm, weak early game, no real escape, no real disable.
I don't see obsidian defeating any of the more discussed earlier heroes.

I am more curious about Clinkz, my initial impression is that due to singletarget focus and quite a reliance on invis, a lot worse farming capabilities and no need for bottle and a weak early game he is heavily outperformed by shadowfiend in any regard but ganks, small fights and snipes late game.

On July 15 2012 12:25 Itsmedudeman wrote:

Show nested quote +

I play my tinker on a high level having untill recently been matched regularly with pros (a rather huge instability of my internet the last couple of weeks have made me drop a bit, but getting a new connection so should be able to practice against high caliber opponents again soon).

At that level at least I experiance QoP's always struggling early game, getting a bit better for mid, then steady decline into late game as a common pattern.

QoP do excel at rune control, however doesn't manage to harrash tinker out of the lane, and if overly aggressive either gets harrashed out herself or even worse dying.

For ganking both fulfill the role pretty equally with QoP only a bit ahead since their nukes are pretty similar in strenght, though different. But yes QoP does have a great edge in escape early game. However it does not outweight how much stronger tinker is lategame compared to her.

So in the end, QoP is a stronger early gamer, but her advantage there simply doesn't outweight her lategame disadvantage.

On July 15 2012 12:30 PrinceXizor wrote:
Don't forget that tinker has a 100% winrate in the starladder finals.

Do you have a link to prove this, or better yet VoD's to all the matches he was picked in? :o I would be very much interessed in watching them.

On July 15 2012 12:32 Enzymatic wrote:
There is really no "best" hero to solo with. Different Heroes counter different heroes. Its a game of rock-paper-scissors in many cases with solo v.s solo, or solo v.s Dual-lane, etc.

Very strong solo heroes:

- Batrider
- SF
- QoP
- Broodmother
- Windrunner (though she isn't popular mid solo really).
- AA
- Bane is good (though to gank).
- Invoker
- Storm Spirit

I have to heavily disagree with many of your heroes, but however will start off by saying I feel I didn't communicate my message in a favorable way for you, as I feel we are not discussing quite the same thing from your first sentences.

Batrider, Brood, WR, AA, Bane all suffer from pretty big flaws, from being a clear support like AA/Bane, to a poor early game when matched against earlier discussed heroes in this thread like broodmother, to poor late gamers like batrider, etc etc. the list piles on.

"Between Tomorrow's dream and yesterday's regret, is today's opportunity"

PrinceXizor United States. July 15 2012 13:29. Posts 4435

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On July 15 2012 12:57 NTTemplar wrote:

Show nested quote +

Do you have a link to prove this, or better yet VoD's to all the matches he was picked in? :o I would be very much interessed in watching them.

Joindota.com has the VODs (can mute tobi if you don't like his casting):
http://www.joindota.com/en/vods

Tinker was played in the following games in starladder:
Playoffs:
Mouz v Darer 1st LB final Game 1
M5 v Na'vi 1st WB Final game 1
M5 v Darer WB Semi Final Game 2
M5 v Darer WB Semi Final Game 1

POOLS:
http://www.joindota.com/en/vods/1363-starladder-finals-moscow-5-vs-darer (tinker's only loss in the tournament finals)
http://www.joindota.com/en/vods/1360-starladder-finals-navi-vs-moscow-5

Note: in the playoffs up to grand finals tinker was picked/banned in all games but 2, and in pools he was banned in half the games he was not played in.

K found a few of his pools games, seems he has 1 loss, of 6 games, so only an 83% winrate. though when you watch his only loss, that game was won and the tinker's team messed up.

Last edit: 2012-07-15 13:40:05