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 Belial88 United States. July 20 2012 02:18. Posts 5217 | Profile Blog # |
Updated for a third game. This is a game I just lost
http://drop.sc/225749
The guy opens stargate, I hold it, he tries to do some sentry warp prism thing to block my ramp but he doesnt kill anything, and loses a bunch of zealots, his warp prism, and all his sentries (i assure you, I didn't take damage).
He then sat in his base forever, got a robo. I saw that, but I started infestors because of the stargate. He literally sat in his base for about 8 minutes, I knew exactly what he was doing, and when he started the colossus bay. I started a spire to get corruptors for that, started hive and baneling nest, mass spines, a fourth, just everything - and I made sure not to overdo it with tech because I knew he was 2 base all-in so I didn't need to pump econ, tech, and take the map and then die.
He eventually pushes, I see every move, I let him kill my fourth (god damn ohana), it's whatever, i can just double expand, i'm still ahead, it really doesn't matter.
He then comes to engage, on creep, in the open, and we go at it. I morph a bunch of banes, have spines, my queens, everything, knowing it's an all-in. I snipe out the colossi with my ~10 corruptors, and it all dies, but the sentries, immortals, and stalkers are still alive. I remax but it doesn't matter, everything just dies.
Help. I can't beat people who just sit in their base and mass immortals, sometimes colossi, like that. I only win games by getting hive in time, and when people push 'when they shouldn't' they meet a mass spine wall and infestors and corruptors and I always have hive in time...i don't know, I lose or win sometimes based on hive, whatever.
On July 20 2012 07:34 Belial88 wrote:http://drop.sc/224658Here's another game where this happened. In this game, the guy goes gate/nexus/forge/cyber. Unfortunately, since I did not open 14/14, he can get away with this. I had 2 really stupid supply blocks at the start from overlords i swore I made, that sucked. I don't think it would have mattered. The guy does an immortal/sentry all-in from this, i recognize it and go mutas like I usually do. He hits before spire is even done, and I'm just pretty fucked. No idea how I could have won this game, really irritating when I run across people who do something like 3 gate sentry expand, 1 gate nexus core, etc, into immortal/sentry, have no idea how to beat it in that situation because it doesn't work out right, usually because I have to make roaches due to 3 gate sentry pressure or whatever.
here's another game I lost, editing this since I just added it.
I guess i lost because I overreacted to the 4 gate and so my drone count was a little low. I'm still confused how I'm supposed to tell how much to make exactly, and even then, I still maxed out in this game and I was able to get infestors on top. I should have been much heavier on ling, only make ling 20 roaches instead of maxing out on them, but this is what I see pros like leenock do and many pros who just beat immortal/sentry straight up use a maxed army of pure roach. Still a bit confused, whatever.
http://drop.sc/224531
800 points masters
I've brought this up in the zerg help me thread but it isn't working.
So I have no problem beating straight up immortal/sentry all-ins. I see the robo, I respond by going mutas, if they go all-in, I have mass spines in my nat and make no roaches (no roach warren even if I can help it, although due to stuff like prism drop I usually can't be that sure, but definitely no roach speed or upgrades) and base trade. if they robo expand, lol 20 mutas. ezpz
But I have a lot of games, where Toss will open something like, 4 gate +1, as in this game. And I stomp it, like in this game. I take zero damage, like in this game. I have a huuuuuge lead, like in this game.
But I've made a ton of roaches because of the 4 gate +1 (I don't think there's a problem with overmaking units here, because the point is to deny the third, and put on counterpressure, and well, I see my drone count is fine, and I tech up quickly asap). So I feel that mutas are out of the question.
So I'm not really sure what to do here, because well, mutas imo are too late, and mass roach doesn't work too well because the opponent is simply massing a TON of sentries and immortals because he knows how far behind he is, so many immortal/sentry that max roach won't cut it. Hydras are lol against immortal/sentry with THAT many forcefield. So I go infestors.
And in this game, i get 6 gas and infestation pit ASAP. I literally grab the 6 gas when I know I've made enough roaches to hold (as it turns out, he dips out, but I grabbed them when I made 10+ roaches and had enough to be safe). I get lots of infestors, making them asap to be out in time for the push.
I delay his push by a lot, using my roaches, which buys me plenty of time to get more infestors.
Knowing this situation has happened many times before for me, I mass spines in my natural, because I know a base trade (like playing standard immortal/sentry all-ins) is the answer to plain immortal/sentry all-ins, and although I don't plan to base trade here, I know I should mass spines because he's all-inning, and because that's half of what you do against immortal/sentry, so I'm taking what this guy doing very seriously.
So it's this weird timing where, literally, the guy is herp derp and massing immortal/sentry, he's 'lost' the game by this point, and if he was doing a standard immortal/sentry all-in and pushed out as soon as he got 2-3 immortals he would die because I have enough mass roaches, but he isn't and instead derping a deathball so I know max roach straight up won't work.
And I've lost games many, sooo many times like this before, and before, I chalked up some of the losses to being too aggressive (he throws down a bunch of FF, I FG and spam IT but it isn't enough and my roaches are washing up against the FF and I'm losing too much and I lose), so every time he FF's, I FG and IT a bit, but I back off to keep my army.
he goes around the mass spines, to my third, and so I re-root them, and i know it's now or never, the game will end here, and I can't base trade because he's got too much econ and time that he's walled off too much at home.
Well, he's just got a ball big enough to stomp my roach/ling/infestor army.
It's really aggravating. I'm very strong in ZvP recently, but I literally lose the most to scrubs who do a 4 gate +1 (the most common failed gateway timing that they follow up with an immortal/sentry all-in), fail completely and I am way ahead of, and then they just mass immortals and push.
And sorry, I know it's rude to call people scrubs like this, but I don't know how else to say it. I mean literally, i own immortal/sentry all-ins with mutas, no problem, every time, but I can't do that because the 4 gate makes me make roaches (dont say 'oh he outplayed you by forcing roaches', that's stupid, I needed the roaches and came out ahead in the engagement for doing that) and well I'd just rather not make mutas in that situation, mutas aren't the only way to beat immortal/sentry, and I own 4 gate +1. But I lose to people who do a horrible 4 gate +1 timing, I beat it, I come out way ahead, and they just mass immortals and sentries and then push out with a deathball.
So yea. Quite aggravating. it's like holding off a 6 pool, and then they just mass immortals off 2 base and win even though you know exactly what they are doing.
TLDR: I know every single thing this guy is doing from the entire game like I got maphack - he goes 4 gate +1, I hold it easily and come out way ahead, then he goes for an immortal/sentry all-in follow-up that's super late and isn't a timing but just massing a deathball, and so I get infestors, but I still lose. This happens often, I always beat immortal/sentry all-ins, I always beat 4 gate +1, but when people literally just sit in their base and mass immortals and sentries after a gateway timing, I always lose. My standard answer to robo tech, from robo expand to robo all-in, is mutas, and since the gateway timing made me make roaches and delays lair, I don't make mutas, so I can't just do what I always do.Last edit: 2012-07-22 20:28:09 |
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| DojoJoe Canada. July 20 2012 02:32. Posts 25 | Profile # |
| Why not basetrade here too? It isn't any different. Alternatively, max out on roach ling, and make sure to engage him RIGHT as he leaves his base. That way you cut his army down a bit, snipe some immortals, and bait out force fields. You'll have time money and larva to remax if you're really ahead, and then you can meet him in the middle, rinse and repeat. |
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| Belial88 United States. July 20 2012 02:32. Posts 5217 | Profile Blog # |
Your post just makes me facepalm so hard. Just watch the replay.
I talked to a GM and they said I was way too heavy on roaches, and should be much heavier on lings, and I shouldn't try to engage in the middle and bait forcefields over and over (which is what you are suggesting, and what i did, by the way), but instead go for one big engagement. And there is no 'snipe immortals' when the guy has over 8 sentries, has 3 immortals, and a shitton of stalkers because he's been just sitting in his base massing units. i'm not talking about a toss who tries to hit an immortal/sentry timing he clearly won't hit because he did a failed 4 gate +1 and I can cut him down because his army is too small while I'm maxed, I'm talking about a Toss who's just massed a huge army that max roach/ling will not be able to beat, let lone 'snipe the immortals'
I only started going so roach heavy the last few days, I used to go much heavier on lings, but not with infestors, so maybe that will help. Maybe I was just really close to winning but just had too many roaches and too few lings. And engaging over and over and baiting FF on my part was not a good idea.Last edit: 2012-07-20 02:35:48 |
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| CecilSunkure United States. July 20 2012 02:42. Posts 2272 | Profile Blog # |
You only have 50 drones at 9:22 and are taking your 5th and 6th gas. You need more drones and less vespene at this point, and your waaay overreacted to his +1 Zealot pressure. Zergs I play just place a couple evos and spines at their third and then a single warpin of Zealots does nothing, they watch for more warpins with speedlings and make Roaches if they have to.
Playing a more conservative style on spamming army units should get you at least 60 drones by this time.
10:46 you have a decently sized army, but the Protoss has no fast third. This is an army you want against a fast third build -- only if you want to play an aggressive style that relies on killing the third Nex, or Sentries, or Probes.
11:26 game is basically over because you don't have the economy to fight a 2 base Protoss. You pretty much made an army and cut drones very hard, did nothing with it, all the while the Protoss army gains strength (Sentry energy) and the income deficit gets worse and worse.
If you played with more Drones in the beginning and less Vespene, you can get an overwhelming Roach/Ling army and hold it unless the Protoss has god-mode FF. And no, you don't want to do one giant engagement... You want to bait as many FF as possible while losing as little as possible. I see very good Zergs (GoldenLighT) engage allins like this from multiple directions, FF are slammed down, then he backs off. He can repeat this multiple times and then go in for one gigantic engagement.
Whoever the GM player is you asked for advice from was either being lazy by saying "too many roaches" or is just an idiot.
Edit: I reread your post and this dude you asked for advice is just an idiot. You can tell him I said this. It makes me angry when people think that they can teach other people things and then teach poorly. Just because you can play well doesn't mean you can teach well.Last edit: 2012-07-20 02:48:26 |
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| ZeromuS Canada. July 20 2012 02:52. Posts 8333 | Profile Blog # |
Ok, from a Protoss perspective here's what didn't go absolutely TERRIBLY with our Protoss friends push:
- he lost only a pylon on the 4 gate attack and forced a crap ton of roaches (slightly slower econ and tech from the Zerg)
- Warp prism survived the whole time without taking any damage
- Didn't get flanked when engaging at the third.
Alright, this being said you have 3 key areas where the Protoss had some sort of advantage or lack of failure
- I think it is more than possible to hold the +1 4 gate without making as many roaches as you did, which you recovered from economically given the time it took protoss to actually attack you. So we will call the +1 4 gate more of a moot point than anything else. The protoss didn't was money executing it, the zerg didn't lose anything to it and while the econ of zerg was slowed a little little bit it wasn't a huge fail.
I feel that you think you are further ahead after the +1 zealot attack than you really are. When you seriously think about what you accomplished with those 12 or so roaches was killing one pylon. You then push up to the toss base and lose a couple roaches here and there while delaying his push so your infestors get out.
What does protoss accomplish? Well, he makes sure he isn't getting killed with some sort of 2 base all in, he verifies that the 3rd is indeed there, he gets further verification that his immortal follow up (and yes, it is a follow up) will most likely not be up against fast spire or muta play and as such he can commit to it more heavily.
The forge is also constantly spinning so he can feel secure that his upgrades will be coming along well.
There are a couple of points in the game where the warp prism pushes a little too far forward and you don't fungal it or try to force an engagement centred around that warp prism. The warp prism is key to this push working as without it the protoss has no warp ins and can not reinforce. The toss is forced to stop immortal production and rebuild or wait for reinforcements cross map or wait for a pylon to be made somewhere.
On the topic of fungal, I saw you use infested terrans a few times where the energy is in essence wasted. Especially in the first bigger engagement on the right hand side, you use infested terrans depleting all the energy that could have been used by fungal. The way you need to think of infested terrans is this: I can make 8 of them. Would 8 marines make a difference here? And if the answer is no then don't use them, instead use fungal growth.
Probably the best thing you could have done was get a flank or surround. This build relies really heavily on forcefields. Since immortals aren't the kind of thing you can just warp in wherever, you need to keep the immortals alive. And while they dish out a ton of damage, since roaches are cheap and quick and easy to build if you start to lose immortals you lose the game since all that is left is non-blink stalkers.
If you can force more forcefields by flanking, or if you get lucky and they miss forcefields, a roach sandwhich will wreck this attack.
I feel also, that since you knew he was going all in, that if you could make more spines instead of uprooting spines you would have been better off. I mean you had 30 more workers than him, and had a 1k+ mineral bank. Considering the spines never actually rooted at the third they were a non issue in the engagement.
Now all this is from my perspective as a protoss player and what I have seen as difficult to deal with when performing a similar all in as that which Cicero did in the replay you provided. Im only around 500-600 masters depending on how well I am or am not playing that day so take this with a grain of salt.
But the things to work on (continuously as zerg) are flanks and try to deny that warp prism whenever you can. Even if you need to trade a little for it its in your best interest to do so. Forcing an engagement where the toss doesn't want one is key to beating the immortals. Killing the prism results in a much less powerful push. I have even seen some zergs use spore crawlers to zone where the prism can sit when the protoss is being aggressively initially to help zone where there can be warp ins and where there can't be warp ins.
As always, I encourage others to let me know when I am completely off base as it helps me learn as well  Last edit: 2012-07-20 02:54:07 |
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| Yayoikori Belgium. July 20 2012 02:53. Posts 3 | Profile # |
I d i o t ...
User was warned for this post |
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| Belial88 United States. July 20 2012 03:06. Posts 5217 | Profile Blog # |
On July 20 2012 02:42 CecilSunkure wrote:
You only have 50 drones at 9:22 and are taking your 5th and 6th gas. You need more drones and less vespene at this point, and your waaay overreacted to his +1 Zealot pressure. Zergs I play just place a couple evos and spines at their third and then a single warpin of Zealots does nothing, they watch for more warpins with speedlings and make Roaches if they have to.
Playing a more conservative style on spamming army units should get you at least 60 drones by this time.
10:46 you have a decently sized army, but the Protoss has no fast third. This is an army you want against a fast third build -- only if you want to play an aggressive style that relies on killing the third Nex, or Sentries, or Probes.
11:26 game is basically over because you don't have the economy to fight a 2 base Protoss. You pretty much made an army and cut drones very hard, did nothing with it, all the while the Protoss army gains strength (Sentry energy) and the income deficit gets worse and worse.
If you played with more Drones in the beginning and less Vespene, you can get an overwhelming Roach/Ling army and hold it unless the Protoss has god-mode FF. And no, you don't want to do one giant engagement... You want to bait as many FF as possible while losing as little as possible. I see very good Zergs (GoldenLighT) engage allins like this from multiple directions, FF are slammed down, then he backs off. He can repeat this multiple times and then go in for one gigantic engagement.
Whoever the GM player is you asked for advice from was either being lazy by saying "too many roaches" or is just an idiot.
Edit: I reread your post and this dude you asked for advice is just an idiot. You can tell him I said this. It makes me angry when people think that they can teach other people things and then teach poorly. Just because you can play well doesn't mean you can teach well.
Hm, I suppose I could have made less seeing as how Toss took gas at 6:30, I could have known that he wasn't planning to go balls to the walls.
I went high on vespene because, as I got from the zerg help me thread, I should be teching up much quicker on infestors against this sort of thing. What do you think about the decision to get infestors though? I felt his army was enough that a max roach/ling army would not have won at that time (or, as sometimes happens, if they wait even longer and make even more).
Do you think I made too many roaches, and should have made more heavy on lings instead?
I thought about multiple engagements, bait out FF, et cetera, but as you saw in the game, it failed. Right? I mean, what do you think of the engaging that I did? I thought with the infestors I had, it would be better to engage in that choke area so I could just FG everything to death.
I guess a game lost to macro is a game lost to macro though ;/
I thought my macro was okay because I hit 70+ at the 8:00 mark. I guess I just overmade roaches... I was planning on just counterattacking with them, but the first poke I make with my initial 3 roaches and lings got shut down really hard by his initial force, so I backed off, made a couple more roaches since I couldn't tell if this was a 4 gate +1 or a 6/7/8 gate and I've lost before thinking it was a 4 gate +1 and it turned out to be a 6/7/8 gate and I made lair after getting speed first and some roaches. How can you tell if it's 4 gate +1 or 6/7/8 gate before 8:00? I mean you can't right?
There are a couple of points in the game where the warp prism pushes a little too far forward and you don't fungal it or try to force an engagement centred around that warp prism. The warp prism is key to this push working as without it the protoss has no warp ins and can not reinforce. The toss is forced to stop immortal production and rebuild or wait for reinforcements cross map or wait for a pylon to be made somewhere.
I didn't think of the warp prism that way, I figured he would have also brought a probe for pylons. I saw I could have done that, but decided against it because I felt I should save energy.
Next time I'll focus more on it, I didn't realize it was so critical. I thought it was just "hey push out after 3 immortals, might as well make a prism now because it can fly over and catch up quickly anyways".
Thanks. Last edit: 2012-07-20 03:12:54 |
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| Synk United States. July 20 2012 03:12. Posts 294 | Profile # |
Uh, I'll just preface this by saying I'm 900-1000 pt masters ( ZvP gives me a lot of issues as well but, mostly just due to small mistakes turning into .. lawl gg, not really a strategy issue.. for example missing an early pylon .. misreading builds, missing double warp prism harass at my main and 3rd .. lotta silly loses )
Anyways,I have had a lot of success dealing with really, most 2 base allins toss do using large numbers of zerglings in conjunction with a few roaches. I find that really any number of roaches past about 20 are nearly useless, they have a hard time getting in firing position. This is especially true against any sentry heavy play of course. However if you have a pack of zerglings, I don't mean some sissy shit like 50 lings, I'm talking over 100 lings at all times before he can even leave his fucking all in factory of gayness. The game gets .. really pretty hilarious frankly. He can't get out of his base without dropping 8+ FF every 20 yards, you just keep swarming him, then retreating as soon as . or even before the FF's land. This delays the push by a ridiculous amount, almost indefinitely honestly. I usually don't even make any roaches until after I see him leaving his base ( in this case of course your already going to have a few to deny that 4 gate pressure ). Infesters, I feel are pretty awful against this kind of army composition. Their dmg is just to slow to mitigate how badly your roaches are getting bottled up in the FF nonsense. Their always a good supplement if you already have 20ish roaches and 100+ lings .. but they are only that in my opinion against a sentry heavy push. I normally drop my macro hatch a bit early ( 7:45 ish ) and it's critical you hit every single inject the entire game, because mass ling requires just sick amounts of larva to keep going. Also I don't take a 4rth gas, just 3 gas so 57 drones total if I know he is doing any 2 base all in. I still get lair and roach speed at their normal times as well. I just build a whole lot of lings, and wait to build any roaches until he is near my main. Also +1 armor in my experience is more useful to counteract the +1 atk of the zealots so they don't ass fuck zerglings so badly ( though many times I can get engagements where my lings are almost only attacking stalkers and immortals anyways )
In this game specifically, you really overreacted to the 4 gate pressure. A lot of toss do that sort of thing early just incase you miss the pylon and they get an ez win, if you spot it they just go .. oh no problem .. immortal sentry time. This guy didn't skip a beat transitioning, he was ready for it to be denied. So that wasn't some large victory like you might feel it was. You did a good job delaying him I think, but just pure roach composition's have a hard time against immortal sentry, you need a fuckload of lings, coming from as many directions as possible, as often as possible the moment he leaves his base. I only engage with my roaches once he is at my base on creep and I always, ALWAYS engage from at least 2 directions, ideally 3 or 4 but sometimes that isn't possible.
Oh one last thing, one other tactic when using zerglings is, send the lings in first. Every toss will drop their FF ring almost in melee range of their units in response to the lings. At this point you swarm in with roaches who can shoot right over the FF because he dropped them all way to close. Most of the time the toss is nearly out of FF before he gets to my base anyways, so he cannot just drop more FF for the roaches, if he even had enough for the lings once that final engagement comes at your base. Once he is out of FF .. ling roach ( way more ling than roach ) rapes immortal stalker + energy-less sentries. |
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| CecilSunkure United States. July 20 2012 03:13. Posts 2272 | Profile Blog # |
On July 20 2012 03:06 Belial88 wrote:
I went high on vespene because, as I got from the zerg help me thread, I should be teching up much quicker on infestors against this sort of thing. What do you think about the decision to get infestors though? I felt his army was enough that a max roach/ling army would not have won at that time (or, as sometimes happens, if they wait even longer and make even more).
You can only do this on certain maps, like Shak. Usually you'll see very light Roaches to fend off WG pressure, and then Spine/Infestor, straight to Hive and then BL. You can't go low on Drones with little Spines, get Roaches, then get Infestors and then BL tech if he's 2 basing you. |
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| Synk United States. July 20 2012 03:25. Posts 294 | Profile # |
11:26 game is basically over because you don't have the economy to fight a 2 base Protoss. You pretty much made an army and cut drones very hard, did nothing with it, all the while the Protoss army gains strength (Sentry energy) and the income deficit gets worse and worse.
He had 66 drones against a 2 base toss. I have to disagree with this, he just made the completely wrong army. Moreover his engagements where not ideal. I think you might have defended still if you had just split your roach army up and flanked him from behind in both the engagement in the middle of the map, and the final one at your 3rd. He would have ran out of FF, and you might have had a shot. Also, if it were me I would go pure IT from the infesters in almost any defensive engagement, only using FG to prevent retreat... which isn't required against sentry armies since he probably just shit out FF all over the place when you flanked him anyways.
But this all gets a lot easier to do, with large quantities of lings .. still doable with pure roach as well, but more dangerous and harder to get your shit in the right spots at the right time. Also a lot harder to make him waste FF, lings are just so fast you can make protoss just blow FF all over the place, and get nothing for it. Roaches are just to slow and predictable so they can use very few FF and accomplish what they need for a win. |
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| dTox United Kingdom. July 20 2012 03:26. Posts 231 | Profile # |
Hey dude i watched the rep. The problem with sentry/immortal is that truly, roach/ling should die to it. But we Zerg's are brute-forcing our way through it with the unit(s) it is designed to counter. However, roach/ling is so common in the current ZvP meta-game and provides the most solid play for now. And as with this game, it is easy for Protoss to force roach production, and you'll almost always need a roach warren at some point any way.
First of all, you weren't as ahead as you think after deflecting his pitiful '4gate'. Firstly it was very late and secondly he warped in 1 round of Zealots and then retreated. So he barely invested anything besides a few chrono's on his Cyber. He needed the 4 gates and the +1 any way, and the other units he can put in his comp later. However, he did delay his all in.
We Zergs are all in the same boat against this ridiculous all-in, but here's some things you can do to help beat it;
A) Macro perfectly. You need almost perfect injects/drones/timings in order to beat this push with roach/ling, which is why so many Protoss 4 gate to disrupt your macro and then follow up with this push. You need to make as little roaches as possible to deflect the 4 gate and ignore lings as they are useless any way. An earlier Roach Warren will make this easier for you, also your gases were quite late @ 6:30 too. Normally you take them @ 6:00 / 42 supply with the stephano style if i am not mistaken and a Roach Warren @ 6:30 if you suspect a 4 gate (someone correct me if im wrong). He would have pushed harder had he actually hit his 4 gate timing, he hit @ 8:30 which is a good minute late. He prob would have won the game had he hit at the right time.
B) Only engage when you have an overwhelming advantage in units and ON creep where possible / in open spaces. Don't engage at the third on this map unless you absolutely have to. I know most of the time its impossible but try HARD to bring units around the back for a flank otherwise you'll just lose any way (unless he messes up his FF's).
C) In this game, you didn't need to make all those roaches so soon before scouting a third. Your priority should be to get infestors out ASAP so you can begin to accumulate energy. If you had gotten the infestors sooner you could have engaged on the map and dealt a lot of damage with fungals and/or even picked off the sentries with chain fungals.
D) Good job forcing ff's/dealing damage with your roaches on the map. Just be careful not to lose them. Sometimes it looks like nothing but losing 6-8 roaches to some FF's for nothing will lose you the game.
Thats all i got for now. I routinely lose to this cheap all-in as well so my comments might not be perfect but its what i've learnt over the last year. |
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| CecilSunkure United States. July 20 2012 03:29. Posts 2272 | Profile Blog # |
On July 20 2012 03:26 dTox wrote:
Hey dude i watched the rep. The problem with sentry/immortal is that truly, roach/ling should die to it.
Roach/ling is how I commonly see it held...
On July 20 2012 03:25 Synk wrote:
Show nested quote +11:26 game is basically over because you don't have the economy to fight a 2 base Protoss. You pretty much made an army and cut drones very hard, did nothing with it, all the while the Protoss army gains strength (Sentry energy) and the income deficit gets worse and worse.
He had 66 drones against a 2 base toss. I have to disagree with this, he just made the completely wrong army.
It's not a composition issue, much more a macro/micro issue. |
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| Jombozeus China. July 20 2012 03:30. Posts 1001 | Profile Blog # |
First of all, I'm not GM. I'm like only 150 points higher than you. Secondly, I never said you shouldn't poke and bait FFs. I thought that's like assumed when you make mass lings. I said you shouldn't be poking if you have all roach no lings.
1. Make more lings
2. Poke and force FF's
3. Make 1 big engagement when hes finally at your door with infestors
Don't misquote me and make me sound like an idiot T.TLast edit: 2012-07-20 03:33:17 |
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| dTox United Kingdom. July 20 2012 03:35. Posts 231 | Profile # |
Roach/ling is how I commonly see it held...
Yep, but on paper it shouldn't. It is only because Protoss makes mistakes that roach/ling prevails. Theoretically it shouldn't work and i would say most of the time it simply doesn't. There's a reason its still so commonly used amongst the best Protoss in GSL/MLG. It's so strong, easy to perform and incredibly forgiving (do enough damage you can just as easily take a third behind it). While on the Zerg's part, roach/ling counter requires almost a perfect response in order to beat.
Have you ever built ling/bling with drop VS sentry immortal? Its so easy its laughable. It is 10x harder with roach/ling, but ling/bling isn't such a great mid-game combination and it has many weaknesses compared to roach/ling. At least for now.
Last edit: 2012-07-20 03:36:38 |
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| Belial88 United States. July 20 2012 03:52. Posts 5217 | Profile Blog # |
A) Macro perfectly. You need almost perfect injects/drones/timings in order to beat this push with roach/ling, which is why so many Protoss 4 gate to disrupt your macro and then follow up with this push. You need to make as little roaches as possible to deflect the 4 gate and ignore lings as they are useless any way. An earlier Roach Warren will make this easier for you, also your gases were quite late @ 6:30 too. Normally you take them @ 6:00 / 42 supply with the stephano style if i am not mistaken and a Roach Warren @ 6:30 if you suspect a 4 gate (someone correct me if im wrong). He would have pushed harder had he actually hit his 4 gate timing, he hit @ 8:30 which is a good minute late. He prob would have won the game had he hit at the right time.
I thought my macro was quite good, no? The problem was overmaking roaches, rather than missing injects or anything.
I made the 6:30 roach warren, which is standard vs 4 gate+1, and I got roaches way in time to deal with what he did. And I prefer 3xGas at 6:30 instead of 2xGas at 6:00, it leads to about a 5 drone difference, DRG does it this way. I think most zergs in general have stopped going 2xgas at 6:00, instead delaying it much more (2 gas like 6:15-6:30, or 3x at 6:30+). Nestea vs Naniwa Blizzcon, nestea was going 5:30 2xgas, which was standard back then.
He would not have won if he hit at the right timing, which is 8:00, not 7:30 (7:30 is only possible if you go nexus first, gateway before forge, etc super greedy play, which just means you dont have an initial units from your gateway but rather from warp gate so its not much different anyways, its more units initially but same by 8:00), and I had roaches by 8:00 anyways.
I said you shouldn't be poking if you have all roach no lings.
i missed that.
Have you ever built ling/bling with drop VS sentry immortal? Its so easy its laughable. It is 10x harder with roach/ling, but ling/bling isn't such a great mid-game combination and it has many weaknesses compared to roach/ling. At least for now.
ling/bane drop could be a great way to hold herp derp mass immortal style play, but the problem is if toss pushes out for a timing instead of massing units. The problem is I have to make roaches to deal with 4 gate stuff like in this game, if I didn't have to I'd just go mutas which is how I beat regular immortal/sentry all-ins. ling/bane cannot beat immortal/sentry all-in that hits at 10:30, so theres a sort of consistency problem. Which is why instead of going mutas, i just keep making roach/ling (since you can supposedly beat immortal/sentry with it, although i never see that) and add infestors.
So I guess I just lost the game by overmaking roaches. So how do I tell if it's a 4 gate or a 6/7/8 gate? I suppose if I see them take gas, that's my queue not to overmake roaches...? But ive run into 6/7/8 gates that took gas and at 6:30+, and i thought it was 4 gate +1 and I die to it because i started lair and only made a few roaches and continued with drones.
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| dTox United Kingdom. July 20 2012 04:40. Posts 231 | Profile # |
Remember, keep an eye on the cyber (is he chronoing + forge spinning?) then its likely a 4 gate. You can sac an overlord @ 6:00-6:30 to be completely sure, but i dont know what protoss you're playing but +1 4 gate hits me @ 7:00-7:30 most of the time otherwise i don't see the point? You start making roaches @ 8:30 blindly any way if you go the classic 'Stephano' style. Hence why i usually get a RW earlier. Is it bad i never really looked into DRG's triple gas @ 6:30? I may look into it
So if he doesn't make any gateway pressure/takes double gas you just continue to macro up, Lair should start @ 7:30 etc then you start making roach/ling once you hit the 60+ drone count. Remember to sac an overlord @ 6-6:30 to be absolutely sure whats going on. From there just follow Cecil's advice. Good luck.
P.S Ling bane drop is ready to counter in time for sentry immortal and it works ez-pz. But if he doesn't sentry immortal all in the build becomes quite frail IMO. Last edit: 2012-07-20 04:40:48 |
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| Belial88 United States. July 20 2012 04:46. Posts 5217 | Profile Blog # |
He'll chrono forge and cyber for 6/7/8 gates too. Sac'cing an overlord might not see any of the gateways if he denies scouting, and just because you see 3 of them doesnt mean 1-4 more are somewhere else.
You shouldn't see 7-7:30 4 gate +1's that often... you can only do that if you went like nexus, gate, forge, and were super greedy (which, if you see toss do, you should of course account for, then 7 pool them next time you see them). Unless maybe you are referring to like 3 chrono'd zealots out of the gateway or something. But 7:00 or 8:00 warp gate still gets a comparable number of units at your door at 8:00, so a 6:30 warren will take care of it, you'll have lings, maybe a spine, and queen, to stall until 8:00 easily. Having to make a 5:30 roach warren because of nexus, gate, forge 4 gate +1 would just be ridiculous.
Ling/bane drop is absolutely not the counter for sentry/immortal at all, i dont know why people say that. Dimaga played against naniwa who did NOT go immortal/sentry but rather took a third, and then people say it counters it. Not really... if you go 'stephano style' 2xgas at 6:00, lair is 80 seconds, drop is 130, blahblahblah, that means drop tech is done at 10:45, thats about 25 seconds too late after an immortal/sentry is shooting at your third hatchery. I have never seen ling/bane used against it, and on paper it doesnt seem like the right answer at all. Not to mention that most zergs, like DRG and myself, get lair a little bit later, more like 7:30 instead of 7:15, so we definitely aren't going to have ling/bane drop tech ready in the same minute that immortal/sentry would hit.
Furthermore, I explicitly talk about in the OP why I can't do something roachless - I made roaches to deal with the 4 gate +1 or similar warp gate timing opening, which is why I can't do what I always do to own immortal/sentry all-ins, quick mutas. If I could afford early tech against immortal/sentry, I'd rather go mutas, which I can get in time, rather than ling/baneling drops, which I've never seen anyone use or attempt to use. So I could see maybe suggesting it as a way to beat late immortal/sentry herp derp mass deathball, but in such cases I can't because I made enough roaches, and I'd rather go mutas anyways, and i can't go mutas, I'd just rather go infestors.
I appreciate your advice though. I'll stick to trying to flank more, even if I have infestors. i thought once I had infestors, I'd want to engage in a choke sort of area, and at the last second so I have banked energy.
Cecil (or anyone) how much gas should I take? I hear you guys say my gas was taken too quickly but... should i be getting infestors or not? I guess the key problem was my overreacting to the 4 gate, but I still sometimes lose to people who dont do a timing and just mass up immortal/sentry and I don't know what to do against it when it isn't a timing.Last edit: 2012-07-20 04:49:26 |
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| dTox United Kingdom. July 20 2012 04:52. Posts 231 | Profile # |
It does work, you get double gas earlier @ 36 and you have it in time, maybe a few seconds late but its a small price to pay for a fraction of the cost of roach/ling to completely decimate the all in. It is a hard counter, you just drop the blings on the sentries and just crush him with lings. The trouble with ling/bane, as you said, its weak VS 4 gate (but there are ways around it). It is also weak in the mid-game and opens you up for some nasty immortal/archon timings.
No you should always avoid chokes, remember their army will always be clumped regardless of what part of the map they're in your fungals will always hit everything cos its Protoss. @ 12 minutes you should destroy sentry immortall all in with roach ling, it was just some bad engagements, a little missed timing (infestors a little late) and dodgy macro (some missed injects, too few drones, too much gas, etc). Like i said, a lot harder to beat the all in then perform it as we all knew already.Last edit: 2012-07-20 04:55:20 |
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| Oboeman Canada. July 20 2012 04:54. Posts 3586 | Profile # |
The problem with infestor is that you normally don't have enough energy built up to stop the push and then they become dead weight. In this case you slowed him down so much that you had a lot of infestors with significant energy, and it probably would have been okay. but don't engage up a ramp even with infestors. you need vision so that you can target the fungals directly on his sentries, and you need enough space that he can't just forcefield you away, or even trap your infestors. you got burrow remember - you didn't know if he had an obs or not, but it would still let you save infestors from trouble.
So I guess I just lost the game by overmaking roaches. So how do I tell if it's a 4 gate or a 6/7/8 gate? I suppose if I see them take gas, that's my queue not to overmake roaches...? But ive run into 6/7/8 gates that took gas and at 6:30+, and i thought it was 4 gate +1 and I die to it because i started lair and only made a few roaches and continued with drones.
The overlord poke you did at about 9 minutes(after he turned around)... do that earlier, while his units are pushing across the map for a pylon. you should be able to see everything. Or keep lings active around his pylon and count warp-ins. It's great to have lings behind him to keep him defending his pylon, but they also get you very valuable information.
You act like you CRUSHED his 4gate pressure, but in reality he hardly committed anything to it at all, and he even saved his units. I prefer to make roaches only from the larva at my 3rd base. With the other larva I will either make a few lings, but not overcommit. Consider banking those larva until you can confirm his level of pressure. If it's only 4gates you can drone with your other hatches and make units at your 3rd, especially if he doesn't commit heavily.
Start your lair blind, and cancel it if you need units, instead of delaying the lair until you find out what he's doing.
But all that aside, despite everything else, I think you were still in good shape to hold his push. you died with money in the bank, you know what that means.
You never attempted a flank. It's easy to call what he was doing "herp derping", but to be fair... you both were. a second control group makes such a big difference.
And it's a lot easier to flank when you have spines or infestors that slow him down because you don't need to worry about him pushing too soon before your flanking force gets in position. there was no excuse not to.
and I think you should be aware of the huge gas bank you accumulate starting at 10 minutes. This is what let you build 10 infestors (ultimately I don't know if you even want 10 infestors), but you should be aware that it is money not being used for at least 3 minutes. That could have been more minerals for more units sooner (which may, for example, have given you enough stuff to get more threatening engagements across the map), or it could have been upgrades started much earlier. something to be aware of.Last edit: 2012-07-20 05:07:05 |
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| NOOBALOPSE Canada. July 20 2012 05:19. Posts 802 | Profile # |
It seems like you WAY overreacted to the +1 4gate pressure. You only have 50 drones at 9:10. You have 15 roaches and 10 lings and a spine...
Quite honestly, I think that 7 roaches + 5 lings and the spine and the queen is MORE than enough. That was way overkill.
Now, i would say that you need to try to do something with your units. I feel like you could have maybe picked off the forge and the 5 zealots he had.
Think of it this way. At 10:00 you could be at his base. At 10:00 he has only five zealots which are useless, one immortal and eight sentries. Quite honestly, 15 roaches and 10 lings could kill all of that, quite easily with some micro.
I still think you could win the game at this point though.
I think what you needed to do was set up a GIGANTIC surround with ling roach hydra or just ling hydra. (ling hydra works perfect for me, but both work). Really, the key to holding off this push is positioning.
Also, ling roach + drops works. You can drop right on top of the immortals + sentries thereby making forcefields useless.
You might want to think of burrow? This push usually doesn't come with an observer.
Even using this method, I think you could have won actually. You need to put spines in a large concave around the chokes. the spine placement was very bad by you.
14:00 Why the fuck are you fighting away from the spines?
After you had nine infestors, i think you needed to go for either mutalisks or hydras. You did neither.
15:00... Why do you have 6 spines at your nat and 1 at your third? that just doesn't make sense... put 4 at your third and 3 at your nat since the choke is smaller at your nat then at your third, and it's a ramp.
If you had hydras and a surround set up at this point, you would have won... period.
Last edit: 2012-07-20 05:20:13 |
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