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 Belial88 United States. July 23 2012 14:29. Posts 5217 | Profile Blog # |
http://drop.sc/226569
900 points masters zerg
So I just played a ZvP on Cloud kingdom where Toss goes something like a 5:00 third, off 1 gate, 1 zealot, 1 stalker. He didn't do any pressure (not like it would have mattered, I prepared for it with a conservative 8 lings).
I responded by grabbing double gas really quickly, like around 40 supply, to get ling speed, and do some bane aggression. Well I kill all his sentries with my bane aggression but it doesn't really get me far, he just warps in more and it's just not enough.
I don't know how to deal with a Toss who does this. I feel like I can't do anything to deny it, especially on maps like cloud. Roach/ling max never seems to work against these stupidly fast thirds, as they up a ton of cannons, and get a robo and stuff.
I've run into a few toss who will do a robo expand, maybe something like off 3-4 gates, which I feel is a little dishonest sometimes when they take it before 8:00, and roach max works a little better than stupidly fast thirds, but it seems to fail as much as it works, and is very map dependent, and I feel is more like Toss making mistakes when it does work anyways.
I skip roach tech completely and try to use my ling/bane aggression to get infestors and fast track hive, and with the mass cannons I see him put down, and templar tech instead of colossus, I go for broodlords instead of ultras (ultras would have sucked against templar tech anyways, but there is a critical timing issue here, I admit, i think he kills my fourth or something but I dont know if it set me back that bad as I double expand afterwards and kill some army and retook it immediately).
The rest of the game is just a standard ZvP, no one is particularly far behind, the game is decided by the vortex, gg, but what I'm asking is how to deal with these fast thirds. I don't think it would be fair to enter into a macro game against something like this as the opponent will simply push before broodlords are out easily and kill you or get templar tech against ultras and secure his fourth, depending on how you play out hive, but you are basically behind i feel.
Anyways, the game ends because he gets a vortex off after I've killed his fourth. I split my broodlords really damn well, but it wasn't enough as he was able to put 2 archons in it, and because my broodlords were split on both sides of the vortex he was able to just use his mass stalkers (this guy literally went pure stalker in the lategame...) to take down 1/3, use the archons to take out the other 1/3rd, and then the other 1/3rd wasn't enough to stand up to a max Toss army. But I'm not really here to complain about that, what I'm wondering is how I'm supposed to respond to a Toss who takes a cheesily fast third.
In hindsight, I think I should have made something like 20+ infestors to prevent the mothership from vortexing me so hard, but whatever. I think everyone is aware now of how fun vortex is.Last edit: 2012-07-23 14:32:57 |
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| EpidemicSC United States. July 23 2012 14:37. Posts 34 | Profile # |
| I feel that making nothing but drones, grabbing all 6 gases, taking a quick 4th (at around 7-8 minutes) and getting Lair-->spire right away is the right choice. He has no pressure to punish you before mutas will come out and most likely will transition into robo tech to combat the roach pressure he would suspect is coming. Also the mass ammount of sentries he will likely build for defense will be useless. |
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| Belial88 United States. July 23 2012 14:39. Posts 5217 | Profile Blog # |
^ Can you provide a rep or example of this? Toss who do this tend to make a shitton of cannons. Cloud isn't the best map for mutas either ;/
Isn't there some sort of all-in that would just autowin against this, hence why no one does it in pro play? Maybe like if I see Toss do this, abandon droning 100%, and get a roach warren, speed, and make like 5 extra overlords so I can go roach/ling all-in that's maybe slightly delayed.
I mean it's a total cheese coinflip, any sort of all-in would beat this play... He's taking his third before he even has time to send out a zealot. I guess if his zealot scouted and saw a roach/ling all-in coming, he'd just cancel the third and mass cannons and not even be that far behind? No... he'd die right, even if he knew it was coming, because he never made a sentry and I would go straight for his main, not the third.Last edit: 2012-07-23 14:42:07 |
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| EpidemicSC United States. July 23 2012 14:42. Posts 34 | Profile # |
On July 23 2012 14:39 Belial88 wrote:
^ Can you provide a rep or example of this? Toss who do this tend to make a shitton of cannons. Cloud isn't the best map for mutas either ;/
Uhh, not really, the toss opener is something i havent encountered much. I expect that the cannons would be mostly at the front of the 3rd/nat depending on the map. Most toss wont just blindly build cannons all around their base/mineral lines without atleast getting an observer out on the map to scout spire, in which case you should have mutas out before he does because of his delayed tech. I think i might have a rep of a game where he builds his 3rd at 6-7 minutes if that would help? |
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| .kv United States. July 23 2012 14:43. Posts 2125 | Profile Blog # |
| I do a fast third (not as greedy as this one) and the best response I've seen from Zerg is just getting their 4th right when they see this and just rush for hive and use spines+infestors to defend. This hive rush should be 2 minutes earlier than your typical hive so around 12 min. |
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| Belial88 United States. July 23 2012 14:59. Posts 5217 | Profile Blog # |
^ Do they go ultras or broodlords?
Against robo expands, I think mutas do very well since they invest so much into immortals, but it's these sort of ridiculously fast thirds I dont know if mutas are too good against. |
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| Theseus X United States. July 23 2012 15:18. Posts 6 | Profile # |
umm high masters zerg here... I honestly think the answer to robo expands would be to drone to 74 or 74 and max with ling muta baneling. Harass mineral lines and snipe stalkers or whatever you can when you can.. if they make a ton of cannons then don't over commit with mutas and use your fourth base gas (which mutas will give you) to tech to hive and probably take a 5th quite easily.
I like mutas mostly because of the warp prism harass all these sneaky protoss are doing, Oz vs Stephano (latest MLG) good match to watch for an example. I have found you can kill a lot of protoss with 200/200 ling muta baneling army, assuming your harass on the probes and stalkers was effective and his army is split up so you can take advatage of that with your fast army. If not kill him you can snipe colossus or whatever tech he is going for.. I feel its important to do an attack because his tech is going to be better than yours because of the gas dump into mutas |
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| Theseus X United States. July 23 2012 15:20. Posts 6 | Profile # | |
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| Belial88 United States. July 23 2012 15:24. Posts 5217 | Profile Blog # |
| I'm not talking about robo expands, i'm talking about fast thirds like 1 gate into third. |
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| .kv United States. July 23 2012 15:26. Posts 2125 | Profile Blog # |
Mutas is the worst answer to fast thirds honestly. By the time mutas are out, Protoss should be a lot of stalkers, have scouted it by now, and reacted perfectly against it.
They mostly go broodlords but some go ultra/bane/ling |
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| NoNonsense Malaysia. July 23 2012 15:34. Posts 25 | Profile # |
On July 23 <a class="inlineAdmedialink" href="#">2012</a> 14:37 EpidemicSC wrote:
I feel that making nothing but drones, grabbing all 6 gases, taking a quick 4th (at around 7-8 minutes) and getting Lair-->spire right away is the right choice. He has no pressure to punish you before mutas will come out and most likely will transition into robo tech to combat the roach pressure he would suspect is coming. Also the mass ammount of sentries he will likely build for defense will be useless.
QFT.
I feel this is the right answer. The protoss gave you the ability to harass without any fear of retaliation. Drone drone drone muta, Take bases and tech. You have full sight of his base, and he can never leave his base with your mutas sharking around. |
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| AceLight New Zealand. July 23 2012 15:35. Posts 199 | Profile # |
| I feel like the best response would be to take a ridiculously fast 4th and rush hive as fast as possible. You should send an overlord to see if they've thrown down a shit ton of gateways or started teching, and if you feel safe go for your hive. When your hive finishes, have a look and see if you feel safe. If you started your spire when you started your hive, you either have the option of playing safe and going ultra as ultras come out faster, or going brood and aiming for a super deathball lategame compisition. I prefer infestor if they go super fast third, because I think infestors are better for defending and that if the toss turtles they can only chrono probes while we can inject and make more drones then them. Sometiems I go up to ~100 drones if I feel safe and when I spot the push, I can buy time with them killing creep to throw up literally 30 spines. |
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| RedMosquito United States. July 23 2012 15:40. Posts 277 | Profile # |
| i find hydras are extremely good against fast third toss. they wont have anything like storm or collosus. a nice +1 hydra attack with some speedlings hitting other spots should be effective |
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| Belial88 United States. July 23 2012 15:40. Posts 5217 | Profile Blog # |
On July 23 2012 15:26 .kv wrote:
Mutas is the worst answer to fast thirds honestly. By the time mutas are out, Protoss should be a lot of stalkers, have scouted it by now, and reacted perfectly against it.
They mostly go broodlords but some go ultra/bane/ling
So does this hive rush into broodlords (or ultras) 'counter' this fast third style? I would think Toss would hit your base before you have enough broodlords. I see ultras maybe as a viable choice though. Symbol did that when the opponent on cloud kingdom when fast third (not stupid fast third, just a quick robo expand). Didnt even make a roach warren i dont think. |
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| Swiipii July 23 2012 15:44. Posts 835 | Profile # |
@ the last MLG Hero tried to take a very fast third against Stephano while putting some pressure (game 1 ) and the Zerg just made 20+ lings to cancel it (just slow lings) .
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| EpidemicSC United States. July 23 2012 15:51. Posts 34 | Profile # |
On July 23 2012 15:44 Swiipii wrote:
@ the last MLG Hero tried to take a very fast third against Stephano while putting some pressure (game 1 ) and the Zerg just made 20+ lings to cancel it (just slow lings) .
This is possible but a gamble. Just to clarify I'm a 1.1k Zerg and mutas is absolutely the best answer. Fast hive is not a good answer because the Protoss 3 base push before brood lords will likewise hit earlier then a normal hive timing because of the faster economy and ability to go double robo more quickly. Muta harass into brood lord is the best option. At our level I guarantee you can snipe careless colossus all over the place with a decent sized muta ball and if your control is decent you can keep toss turtled on 3 bases til you are ready to fight. |
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| phodacbiet United States. July 23 2012 15:51. Posts 935 | Profile # |
I am curious to why you made 6 zerglings? You saw a third so that should tell you no attacks will be coming soon. That third was the price of the 4 zealots that would have attacked you (if he was attacking anyways). The 8 extra zerglings you have total could have been 4 drones. Also you stopped droning too early. At 9 minutes, he had 1 zealot, 1 sentry, 1 stalker. You let him get wayyy to greedy. Either out greed him or kill him because he doesnt have anything to hold it off (due to heavy investment into that third and defenses for it). His +1 wasnt even finished at 9 minutes so he was going PURE eco. Think of it this way, a zerg just 3 hatched before pool and droned non stop for 9 minutes while terran stayed on 2 bases on 1/1 rines, of course the terran is going to come into the mid game behind. Also for someone that went fast 3 bases he only had 64 workers which seems quite low to me. Imo with the build he did, at 10 minutes you should have been on 4 bases with 75+ drones, but you only had 59.
You did a lot of damage with the first baneling attack, but there was no reason to continue. What was your reasoning to continue the attack? The second attempt puts you behind or evened it out for the protoss at least. Late game you didnt expand fast enough while floating 2k. Also, you didnt have enough broodlords or enough support for your broodlords. 5 Broodlords and 8 infestors only arent gonna be good enough to kill an army of that size. Also not enough spines while floating at 90 drones is why you are losing your hatches to runbys. Late game zvp there is no need to jew up on spine and spores especially with your army composition, SPARE NO EXPENSE. The reason your broodlord army is so small is because you had too many drones. 72 is ideal and anymore is just redundant. The later the game goes, the more i can see how not having spines hurt you. He ran around your army, killed everything and bounced before your broodlords could get there. Imagined if you had a wall of 20+ spines at the locations he attacked. It would have been impossible for him to do damage without taking massive damage of his own. Also spread your broodlords better broski -.-;; they died for nothing =/.
What i noticed most is that you let him outgreed you while you made units for nothing. He was the zerg in this game (by mass expanding) and you didnt properly respond. If you played greedier than him OR cheesed him the next game, you should win E-.-Z. Hope that helped =) |
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| Belial88 United States. July 23 2012 16:09. Posts 5217 | Profile Blog # |
@ the last MLG Hero tried to take a very fast third against Stephano while putting some pressure (game 1 ) and the Zerg just made 20+ lings to cancel it (just slow lings) .
wow thats funny ill rewatch my rep to see if that could have been a possible answer.
EpidemicSC, why is doing that though, a gamble? Care to share a rep where you go mutas against it?
I am curious to why you made 6 zerglings? You saw a third so that should tell you no attacks will be coming soon. That third was the price of the 4 zealots that would have attacked you (if he was attacking anyways). The 8 extra zerglings you have total could have been 4 drones. Also you stopped droning too early. At 9 minutes, he had 1 zealot, 1 sentry, 1 stalker. You let him get wayyy to greedy. Either out greed him or kill him because he doesnt have anything to hold it off (due to heavy investment into that third and defenses for it). His +1 wasnt even finished at 9 minutes so he was going PURE eco. Think of it this way, a zerg just 3 hatched before pool and droned non stop for 9 minutes while terran stayed on 2 bases on 1/1 rines, of course the terran is going to come into the mid game behind. Also for someone that went fast 3 bases he only had 64 workers which seems quite low to me. Imo with the build he did, at 10 minutes you should have been on 4 bases with 75+ drones, but you only had 59.
Usually Toss who do this open zealot/stalker pressure, and I specifically saw Toss get a zealot/stalker. Regardless of what was going to go down, I neede that ~8 lings total to deal with zealot/stalker pressure. He didn't do it, but I've had games where Toss did.
Okay, so if I want to kill Toss, what do i do? That's what I tried to do with the ling/bane aggression.
I was quite low with drones because my ling/bane aggression was total fail. I just don't know what to do against toss who take a super fast third like that. So you say I should play like normal and just drone up. Okay..?
I would think some sort of timing (mutas, roach/ling, just a bunch of slowligns) would just straight up kill this, but i dont know. its fucking cheesy imo!
Thanks for the advice. I didn't realize I made so many drones. I think i was caught up in a process of trying to mass spines but having trouble getting able to do that. |
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| OODavey Canada. July 23 2012 16:15. Posts 6 | Profile # |
| I feel like Overlord Baneling drops would have done the trick. |
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| Flonomenalz Nigeria. July 23 2012 17:05. Posts 2863 | Profile # |
Err you can either go really fast mutas, or you immediately take a 4th, and then take a 5th once Lair is done. Rush Hive, double ups, and go for Ultras before Broods (that pre Brood timing is a LOT faster off of fast third). Get at least 10 infestors because the stalker count is going to be higher than normal. Important thing is scouting it, really.
It really sucks when you are playing "standard" 3 hatch before Lair, and you find out your opponent snuck a 5 min third... and you're like, screwed.
Fast muta is map dependant though. On maps like Cloud, Entombed, you're best off just taking an extremely fast 4th and 5th, while rushing Hive. They cut corners, so you can cut corners too.Last edit: 2012-07-23 17:06:23 |
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