Website Feedback
Closed Threads
IRC Chat
irc.quakenet.org #teamliquid
IRC Web ClientTeamSpeak 3 (46 users) | |
|
| roym899 Germany. July 23 2012 18:08. Posts 377 | Profile # |
Hi,
I'm high Diamond, mostly getting matched against Master players, and it's ridiculous how often I get cheesed right now. Every 3rd ZvZ is a 6pool or so, and every 2nd protoss tries to Cannonrush. It's just not fun anymore to be completly honest.
In ZvZ I've readed Belials guide on stopping the early pools and it's awesome how easy it is to stop most of them if you know the right answer. But in ZvP it seems to be impossible for me to stop every cannonrush. There just have to be an answer to all of them.
Here is a replay, I just have no idea what would have been the right reaction: DropSC
He puts the pylon on the high ground. So i pulled 4 drones to attack the pylon. But then he places the cannons with a second probe on the low ground and creates a choke so I couldn't kill of these cannons. It's just stupid. I have to pull so many drones to stop these cannon rushes that after all, even when I stop them I'm not ahead. In addition to this protoss could also easily fake me out by placing that pylon there but not adding pylons. I would need to pull drones just because he could add them and lose so much mining time that after all i'm behind again.
Here is another replay: DropSC
This time he gets the pylon block off which I can kill but he just keeps building cannons and pylons and blocks me again. I pulled my drones back because I thought the rush is over, but it wasn't.
And here is the 3rd replay: DropSC
He blocks my natural with a pylon. So I don't bring down a drone to place the hatch as I would have to wait for the lings no matter what. But then he adds 3 cannons. I pull WAY ot few drones and gets killed easily. Again: Should I pull all my drones in such a situation? I just lose so much mining time, while the Toss could just proceed and put down a nexus while I try to kill of that stupid rush.
So I'm really searching for a universal answer how to stop these rushes and I really wonder if there is ANY player out there cappable of stopping every cannon rush. Because there are so many ridiculous variations of this rush and every time I figure out how to deal with one, the next game it's something different. It's frustrating me so much I always have stop playing after getting cheesed and the game is just not fun anymore. My normal ZvP is already not very good and then I can't even train it on ladder because I always die to these cannon rushes.
So could anyone tell me what would have been the right answer to the three cannon rushes above? |
|
|
| ZeroStarCraft2 Malaysia. July 23 2012 18:21. Posts 137 | Profile # |
| I'm a P. Are the cannon rushes game-ending or just to kill the natural? I'm no high level player, but when I cannon rush a Zerg they normally respond with a roach bust, then bust the main due to the resources invested in the rush. |
| | Squirtle, PartinG fighting! |
|
|
| roym899 Germany. July 23 2012 18:28. Posts 377 | Profile # |
| Well some are gameending because I try to kill it and lose many drones because of this, ofc I could pull back and not lose any drones. But I think without a natural the game is loss and I normally don't see a point in staying in such a game hoping for my opponent to fuck up his defense completely to get a win out of this. He could just put down 5-10 cannons in his natural and I'm lost as a One base Zerg against a 2 base Protoss. |
|
|
| ZeroStarCraft2 Malaysia. July 23 2012 18:30. Posts 137 | Profile # |
| Another reaction to my cannonrush on the natural was a 1base Nydus allin (very risky though). If you have no natural, you may be forced to make a macro hatch and roach bust. Also, how are you scouting? Drone scout, Ovie scout only, and timing? |
| | Squirtle, PartinG fighting! |
|
|
| roym899 Germany. July 23 2012 18:35. Posts 377 | Profile # |
Drone scout at 12 normally and first overlord to opponents natural gas. But i think it's not possible to scout this as it looks like a normal FFE until the point where he adds the cannons.
But yeah all these all-ins are relying on my opponent to fuck up his defense. It's nothing really solid. And after all he's so far ahead ahead that he definitly can put up a ton of cannons everywhere to prevent these all-ins from working.Last edit: 2012-07-23 18:37:10 |
|
|
| Shaoer United States. July 23 2012 18:35. Posts 38 | Profile # |
| Hey! High Diamond/Low Masters here and I just watched game one and the easiest answer is to just... ignore it. Yes it sounds weird but look at it. He puts 1 pylon(high ground) and 2 pylon/2 cannon(low ground). These do no damage to your main, just wait for the cannons to finish and put down a natural somewhere else. Then(since ur about 600 minerals ahead) you can invest in lair/nydus for mobility, and then you can transition into a delayed stephano build. That's what I think from my point of view(I main protoss(master) and smurf zerg(diamond)) |
| |
|
| NoNonsense Malaysia. July 23 2012 18:35. Posts 25 | Profile # |
I watched your first replay. I think the most important point here is to have the foresight to see where the protoss COULD put down his cannons. Once you see the pylon 50% or 75% complete(No need to hit the pylon itself, since you went pool first), put one or 2 drones at places that you think will be difficult for you to bring down his cannons. Force him to put it on open ground, so that you can line up more drones to hit it.
I notice that you were so excited by the cannon rush that you fail to produce lings immediately after the pool was done.
I also dislike your choice to drone scout, as it affects your build so that it doesn't look as smooth and limited your ability to build many lings immediately. |
|
|
| Amui Canada. July 23 2012 18:43. Posts 3128 | Profile Blog # |
As general as possible
1. Some cannon rushes are going to be impossible to stop if you don't preemptively block the placement of buildings.
2. As a general rule, ignore pylons that do not block terrain. Basically any pylon that does not wall stuff be mindful of, but do not actively engage with drones. Barring silly stuff like 5 cannons one pylon, always go for cannons because they have less health and build more slowly.
3. Right click one worker every one of his, this will put a timer on how long he can maintain the rush, unless you are supremely confident in your micro, in which case save the minerals and just shut down cannons, because once you have 6+ lings with some drone backup, there is no way for any cannons to ever go up.
4. 3 workers per cannon if you get it right away, 4 to be safe. He couldn't have been building workers if he was actively trying to cannon rush, and if he tries to be greedy behind it, you can be far greedier, because he has to cut workers to build a solid walloff with cannons before he can put down a nexus if you hold it off with lings out.
5. It's better to overreact than to underreact, because if you overreact, you lose out economically, but there minimal chance of losing right away, and regardless you are still going to have more workers if you didn't lose any.Last edit: 2012-07-23 18:45:31 |
| |
|
| roym899 Germany. July 23 2012 18:44. Posts 377 | Profile # |
On July 23 2012 18:35 Shaoer wrote:
Hey! High Diamond/Low Masters here and I just watched game one and the easiest answer is to just... ignore it. Yes it sounds weird but look at it. He puts 1 pylon(high ground) and 2 pylon/2 cannon(low ground). These do no damage to your main, just wait for the cannons to finish and put down a natural somewhere else. Then(since ur about 600 minerals ahead) you can invest in lair/nydus for mobility, and then you can transition into a delayed stephano build. That's what I think from my point of view(I main protoss(master) and smurf zerg(diamond))
Yes this is a possibility but those protosses often just put down more and more cannons. I'm quite sure in this case his next action would have been to block of the ramp and add more canons to prevent me from leaving my base. Then he could also start to cannon rush my expo which is quite far off and I wouldn't get out any lings probably from my main. It's ridiculous but i think some protosses invest hours just to find out how to kill off a Zerg with cannons only.
On July 23 2012 18:35 NoNonsense wrote:
I watched your first replay. I think the most important point here is to have the foresight to see where the protoss COULD put down his cannons. Once you see the pylon 50% or 75% complete(No need to hit the pylon itself, since you went pool first), put one or 2 drones at places that you think will be difficult for you to bring down his cannons. Force him to put it on open ground, so that you can line up more drones to hit it.
I notice that you were so excited by the cannon rush that you fail to produce lings immediately after the pool was done.
I also dislike your choice to drone scout, as it affects your build so that it doesn't look as smooth and limited your ability to build many lings immediately.
So I use the drone scout normally to patrol in my opponents main after I've scouted the FFE. (I'm mostly trying to follow Belials guide here on TL)
So I agree with you I should try to put a drone in these places. But I just don't see all those places which the Protoss obviously always sees. So everytime there is another choke they use for their advantage. I'm also not sure what to do, if he attacks my drone on holdposition. Wouldn't he kill it? |
|
|
| NoNonsense Malaysia. July 23 2012 18:52. Posts 25 | Profile # |
Early rushes are exactly the weak point of drone-scouting as it affects your early game economy. However, one cheesy thing you could do since you had your drone out was to build a hatchery in his base, take gas, and build a roach warren. While he is dealing with the hatch in his base, you can clear off the cannons with spines+ queen.
Drones beat probes unless they break off the engagement to recharge shields. In this case you went 15 pool, so your lings would have been out very soon if you built it immediately. All you need to do is delay and don't give him the chance to wall in his cannons.
On the point that you can't see where they could put it, i guess that's where experience comes in. Everytime you lose to a cannon rush, that's a new placement that you learn. |
|
|
| Shiftcore France. July 23 2012 18:57. Posts 4 | Profile # |
My BO for countering every early agressions from protoss (based on FFE) is :
-10/10 extractor trick
-11/10 overlord
-11/pool
-drones
-16 : overlord
Asap (usually around 16) :+ 1 or 2 sets of glings : - harass if he place nexus before cannon you're able to harass & kill some probes
------------------------------------------------------------------------- deny any pylon
------------------------------------------------------------------------- hold his ramp or take map control
+++++++++++++++++++ Queens (make 2 on B1)
+++++++++++++++++++ Double expansion (Only one exp if he didn't FFE)
So, zergling are out early enough to defend anything cheesy & you can continue easily on a 3rd bases playLast edit: 2012-07-23 18:59:53 |
|
|
| Immutant Singapore. July 23 2012 19:28. Posts 181 | Profile # |
Overpool is pretty much the (easy) answer to cannon rushes (definite/universal counter).
My opening build vs P is basically
First OL scout
-10/10 extractor trick
-11/10 overlord - scout 2nd place
-11/pool
-drones till 13
-13 Overlord to nat
Watch him panic when he realises he can't cannon you
6 lings and 1 queens when pool finishes. ( or drones if he doesn't cannon)
Lings rally to toss, 1 drone head down for hatch.
Straight up kills Nex first builds. Or if he's late in building his cannons. 30% of my games end up with him abandoning his nat and making pylon in main + cannon -> gates.
Of course, if he plays safe, you are behind in econ. Just scout and drone hard.
Else, play as normal (15 pool 16 hatch, etc) and micro as best as you can with drones. |
|
|
| Asolmanx Italy. July 23 2012 21:11. Posts 128 | Profile # |
First of all, don't overpool. Just don't. It won't help. Now, I would try to explain to you how to deal with cannon rushes, but i think that CatZ has more experience and visuals might help a lot. So, here's a VoD of CatZ analyzing a replay where he goes for HATCH FIRST and easly stops a cannon rush attempt.
+ Show Spoiler + |
|
|
 JustinBieberFanboy Brunei Darussalam. July 23 2012 21:25. Posts 9 | Profile # |
i have not seen your replay, since im at work right now, yet all u have to have is map awareness, dont attack the pylon since it wont get down anyways, at least it takes forever. but be aware where he can block off ur drones so u cannot attack the cannon and block those areas. then just attack with 3 worker a cannon and u make more damage than it will gain through warping in 
also attackmoving one drone on the probe is annoying for the protoss, he eather takes damage or he has to walk weird ways
User was warned for this postLast edit: 2012-07-23 21:38:22 |
|
|
| Shiftcore France. July 23 2012 23:46. Posts 4 | Profile # |
If you dont overpool you can also do a 13pool, If I remember, it's early enough to have glings & hold any canon rush.
Then, you can continue on a standard play : fast third into mass roaches+glings or anything you like to play |
|
|
| BronzeKnee United States. July 24 2012 01:08. Posts 2630 | Profile # |
On July 23 2012 18:08 roym899 wrote:Hi, I'm high Diamond, mostly getting matched against Master players, and it's ridiculous how often I get cheesed right now... Here is a replay, I just have no idea what would have been the right reaction: DropSCHe puts the pylon on the high ground. So i pulled 4 drones to attack the pylon. But then he places the cannons with a second probe on the low ground and creates a choke so I couldn't kill of these cannons. It's just stupid. I have to pull so many drones to stop these cannon rushes that after all, even when I stop them I'm not ahead. In addition to this protoss could also easily fake me out by placing that pylon there but not adding pylons. I would need to pull drones just because he could add them and lose so much mining time that after all i'm behind again.
Wow, you quit when you were ahead in this game and gave him a free win. I think first and foremost SC2 is a strategy game, and with a bit of strategy you can easily overcome stuff like this. Unfortunately your strategy seemed to be A move Drones, and when that didn't work you throw your hands up and quit. Honestly, why should that work? I don't do that when I am 6 Pooled by a Zerg as a Protoss player...
Anyway, had you simply taken an expansion somewhere else (you could have hidden the expand if you fear more Cannons, and if he Cannons rushes it, cancel it at the last second and then go take your natural, it should be clear by then) and built a single Queen or Spine Crawler (your Pool was done) you could have easily cleaned out your main and natural and then taken your natural (he only had a single pylon on the high ground that could have been picked off by a Queen or Spine Crawler without taking shots from the Cannon, then you can clean out the Cannons from the high ground without them having sight).
Your opponent invested 600 minerals (3 Pylons and 2 Cannons) into his Cannon rush to block your expansion. That is the cost of 2 Hatcheries! And he still has to take his expansion and invest in some Cannons to defend to it. He is clearly behind in tech (all he has is a Forge), and he is also behind in workers (16 to 14) at a time when Protoss should be ahead in workers. Finally, you have a Drone in his base scouting, so you can either do an all-in with knowledge of what his defenses are or go into a macro game. He is actually in a terrible position. So use your advantages, and take what the opponent gives you.Last edit: 2012-07-24 01:14:55 |
|
|
| roym899 Germany. July 24 2012 02:32. Posts 377 | Profile # |
Well to be honest it's probably a psychological problem. I already have HUGE problems beating protoss even when everything works nicely for me in the first 9 minutes. So in such a situation I feel really, really uncomfortable that I just don't see a point in staying in a game where I already felt behind after the first 4 minutes.
Also I don't see how I should clear that easily without losing anything. Maybe if the opponent really only wanted me to cancel my hatch it would have been possible. But from my experience they just keep adding more and more cannons on the high ground and pylons. And as time goes by I have to invest ridiculous amounts of units just to kill of this rush. It's depressing. And in addition to this it's just so easy to execute.
Also I don't think I'm ahead at all. I won't get up an expo in a reasonable amount of time and saturating it is going to be even harder when I hide it somewhere at a unorthodox position (which would be most likely quite a bit away from my main) So i have to mainard a very far way or rally a very far way. While protoss just continues with putting down the nexus at his expo like he would in a normal FFE and then follows it up with a Sentry Immortal All-In which is already very hard to hold if everything works quite perfectly in the first minutes. So with the mentioned handicap it's just gets impossible to hold it off, especially for me, as my ZvP isn't good at all. |
|
|
| Nihonjin July 24 2012 02:39. Posts 66 | Profile # |
You need to have a drone at the bottom of your ramp patrolling.
It is a cheap strategy for toss but can be avoided.
If he 3 pylon block your ramp its over. |
|
|
| Silencioseu Cyprus. July 24 2012 03:24. Posts 448 | Profile # |
On July 23 2012 21:25 JustinBieberFanboy wrote:i have not seen your replay, since im at work right now, yet all u have to have is map awareness, dont attack the pylon since it wont get down anyways, at least it takes forever. but be aware where he can block off ur drones so u cannot attack the cannon and block those areas. then just attack with 3 worker a cannon and u make more damage than it will gain through warping in also attackmoving one drone on the probe is annoying for the protoss, he eather takes damage or he has to walk weird ways User was warned for this post
I wonder why did this dude get warned, maybe its his name.
For each race holding a cannon rush is pretty different, and i find holding as terran the harder(if you play greedy, or you are not prepare with like wall offs) |
| | i kno i r badass no need to repeat |
|
|
| Acritter July 24 2012 03:43. Posts 1562 | Profile # |
I'll try to summarize the various kinds of cannon rushes and reactions as best I can. There are a lot of cannon rushes that are NOT cheese, and you should be prepared for them.
1. Aggressive Cannon Rush, attempts to end the game
Ignore. He can't kill you with Cannons because of Creep. Get Roaches out and win. You should never see this happen.
2. Pylon blocking your nat, then Cannons once it finishes
This is a rush designed to contain and delay the econ of Zerg, and the one I use the most. You should have an Overlord positioned directly over your nat at the start of the game to scout this. Bring about 4 Drones to start, and 7 if more than one Cannon is planted. The two of you will end up about even in econ.
3. Wall-off behind minerals (at nat or third) after hatch is planted
This is designed to force a cancel of your expansion to gain an economic advantage. Preventative measures: keep a Drone following the Probe around, and if it tries to do anything fishy, stay behind where it would try walling. Your Drone can kill the Probe in a one-on-one, ending the threat. Reactive measures: if they're rushing your third, it's probably better to just cancel and rebuild somewhere else. If they're rushing your nat, the best thing I've seen is Spine+Queen to kill the cannon. Requesting a Zerg player for input on this, as I don't do it too often.
Hope some of that helps. |
|
|
| 1 2 Next All | |
|
|
|
| |
|
Sidebar Settings...
|
Store
