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| -MoOsE- United States. July 24 2012 06:42. Posts 233 | Profile # |
Hey everyone,
I have been trying out the pvt gateway style a lot on ladder now. I can defend up to like 15 min but then I just fall apart, and the terran massive bio force just kills me.
My build goes like this
MC's 1 gate expo (except expo on 27)
then I get the robo and 2 obs
forge and twilight
nat gases ( now maybe these are too late?)
5 more gates and templar archives.
Now I get 2 ht and feedback both medivacs and then morph into archons. After I defend this I go storm and take a third.
But it seems like I'm running into troulbe around 150 supply. I might have like 1 collusos out and the rest zealot archon. Even when I protect my ht and get good storms it seems like i just get ripped apart.
What I think it is, maybe I need a 2nd forge and mess with the opening build order.
So my questions are;
Is my opening build order good?
When should I put up 2nd forge ( or if I should at all)
When do I throw down robo bay and extra facility
and finally how many gates is good for 3 bases?
Thanks
I can't seem to get drop.sc to work, is there another good replay site to upload a replay? |
| | The King in the North Fighting |
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| meepkeN United States. July 24 2012 07:01. Posts 52 | Profile # |
Opener seems good. I get colossus first over HT only because I already have the robo and I don't like to leave it idle so early in the game. Something I like to do it go double forge around 10 minutes and start upgrades. Twilight council drops around halfway done upgrades or so for me, and I get either blink or charge depending on what I have more of (zealots or stalkers).
I've honestly never gone double robo in any matchup except PvP, so I can't answer when to throw down another facility. Colossus tech should be going down around either 9 or 11 minutes (don't quote me, I don't have a solid time on it) to hold a midgame push with medivacs.
I suggest 10 gates with three saturated bases, depending on other upgrades/tech you might be getting. If you're still producing colossus then 10 should be fine. If HT/zealots I think you can go for 12 to 13.
Other stuff:
--Stalker count should be lower than you'd think, but given what you describe I don't think that's too big of a problem.
--Upgrades should be on par or a bit ahead of Terran's upgrades. With chronoboost you should be able to be ahead in upgrades in most cases.
--Colossus are really good in numbers. One colossus isn't that great; two to three, maybe four will be really good. If they start piling vikings, switch to HT (and vice versa)
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| FreedomMurder Canada. July 24 2012 07:08. Posts 146 | Profile # |
Your builder order is very greedy.. I think that it is pretty risky considering you stay on 1 gate for a long time. I would add gates 2-3 right after you drop the robo as staying on 1 gate can just auto lose to any 3 rax or 4 rax marine timings off an expansion.
You need to scout your opponent before deciding to go 1 forge or 2. If he has more than 5 rax off 2 base stick to the 1 forge (armour upgrades for chargelots), because you need all the units you can get.
I like to throw down my robo bay as my 3rd base finishes if I open up with templar. Try mixing in immortals prior to this to help survive timings before you have collosus in good numbers.
Finally I think 12ish gates is good for 3 bases if you want to continue for the lategame. If you plan on killing with 3 base i like to have around 16 gates. I only add extra robo once my 4th base is established.
I'm mid masters btw. |
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| LiSAuCE United States. July 24 2012 07:20. Posts 33 | Profile # |
First you need to tell us what league you are. And read the forum rules for posting help. You need to give us as much info as you can, the better we can help you.
Second I know you may have trouble with drop.sc, but a replay helps so we can see macro slip pups, unit composition etc.
THAT being said.....
real quick points:
I feel templar before colossi isn't really viable anymore. You're really vulnerable mid game to terran stim medivac pushes etc.
Colossi first is much more common now.
Also, MC 1 gate FE is really solid and safe, but it's the "worse" economically out of all the billions of fast expands out there.You will be slightly behind economically especially if terran goes 1 rax gasless FE. I use Parting's FE
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=341631
It is true that you are more susceptible to early game pushes such as two rax etc. Stuff like this tends to be more common lower leagues, but it IS possible to hold with greedier styles. Keep in mind, even though it might be less safe early game, it'll really boost your mid game if your timing is good.
You may be building too many stalkers. 5-6 stalkers max to deny drops. You're aiming for a composition of zealots, around 4 sentries, archons, a few templar with storm, and colossi. You need charge. Doesn't matter if you get blink first. At some point the terran army gets so big you need zealot dps.
This is how I play PvT. Keep in mind I'm only rank 10 diamond, so higher level players please fix any misinformation:
You want 3 gates and a robo pumping 2-3 obs. I get nat gas with around 5-6 probes mining nat. Remember, 22 probes total at each base (16 min, 6 gas) for optimal mining. So 22 at main, then rally all to nat, then back to respective min fields once both bases have 22 probes each.. At least that's how I do it, others may do it other ways. At some point, you want to throw down 3 more gates, a robo bay, and a forge, in whatever order. I usually like getting robo bay before three gates, if terran isn't really pushing. If you scout a bunch of rax being built early, you may have to add three gates first. I also like to add the bay and forge at the same time.
Remember, your goal is two bases, 6 gates, one robo bay producing 2-3 colossi, and a forge pumping upgrades (I like attack). This is sustainable production off two base.
I usually only build 2 colossi, 3 max, because terran will then start pumping vikings. The 2 colossi are just for map control and AoE damage for 10 minute medivac pushes. Once he starts pumping vikings, it's better to MAINTAIN PRODUCTION with immortals. You want to throw down a TC sometime after 6 gates, forge bay, to maintain continuous upgrades. THEN, you take a third. THEN you start templar archives. Good scouting is key. You want an obs with his army, an obs to scout for drops, and I really like a third obs to check the third, main, other drop routes etc. I love obs so much that sometimes I even get obs speed before thermal lance if I'm defensive, though I wouldn't recommend (boy here comes the flames haha). Generally you want to get your third when he does, if not before. This part is really tricky for me, as they will attack while getting third, so you need to be on your macro and micro A game.
So yeah that's a rough but solid framework for how I play PvT. Others can comment on it. Don't destroy me though haha. I'll see if I can find a serviceable replay for the perfectionists out there.
P.S. The more I think about it, the more I think you have a big problem with unit composition and maybe engagement. Won't know until replay.
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| | "Ashley Schaeffer BMW! Woo!" |
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| trbot Canada. July 24 2012 07:27. Posts 142 | Profile # |
On July 24 2012 06:42 -MoOsE- wrote:
But it seems like I'm running into troulbe around 150 supply. I might have like 1 collusos out and the rest zealot archon. Even when I protect my ht and get good storms it seems like i just get ripped apart.
What I think it is, maybe I need a 2nd forge and mess with the opening build order.
When you say ripped apart, you mean your army dies quickly in a straight-up engagement? Can you confirm in some game(s) where this happens what the discrepancy is between your upgrades?
In my experience, you can't engage a terran army at 150 supply without 3-4 colossi or storm. By 180 supply you should have both. I like to get 4-5 ht for storm in addition to 3-4 colos. After the first 3-4 colo, pump immortals out of your robo. I would say don't switch to only colo or only ht, because it's really nice to make the terran attempt to balance ghost and viking production--give him more opportunities to screw up. Between 180 and max, I like to get more archons, DT tech, and do speed prism harrass. |
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| -MoOsE- United States. July 24 2012 07:47. Posts 233 | Profile # |
On July 24 2012 07:08 FreedomMurder wrote:
Your builder order is very greedy.. I think that it is pretty risky considering you stay on 1 gate for a long time. I would add gates 2-3 right after you drop the robo as staying on 1 gate can just auto lose to any 3 rax or 4 rax marine timings off an expansion.
You need to scout your opponent before deciding to go 1 forge or 2. If he has more than 5 rax off 2 base stick to the 1 forge (armour upgrades for chargelots), because you need all the units you can get.
I like to throw down my robo bay as my 3rd base finishes if I open up with templar. Try mixing in immortals prior to this to help survive timings before you have collosus in good numbers.
Finally I think 12ish gates is good for 3 bases if you want to continue for the lategame. If you plan on killing with 3 base i like to have around 16 gates. I only add extra robo once my 4th base is established.
I'm mid masters btw.
sorry for the confusion, in mc's expo its 3 gate robo, so I'm on 3 gate robo. Then I add the 5 gates
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| | The King in the North Fighting |
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| -MoOsE- United States. July 24 2012 07:47. Posts 233 | Profile # |
On July 24 2012 07:01 meepkeN wrote:
Opener seems good. I get colossus first over HT only because I already have the robo and I don't like to leave it idle so early in the game. Something I like to do it go double forge around 10 minutes and start upgrades. Twilight council drops around halfway done upgrades or so for me, and I get either blink or charge depending on what I have more of (zealots or stalkers).
I've honestly never gone double robo in any matchup except PvP, so I can't answer when to throw down another facility. Colossus tech should be going down around either 9 or 11 minutes (don't quote me, I don't have a solid time on it) to hold a midgame push with medivacs.
I suggest 10 gates with three saturated bases, depending on other upgrades/tech you might be getting. If you're still producing colossus then 10 should be fine. If HT/zealots I think you can go for 12 to 13.
Other stuff:
--Stalker count should be lower than you'd think, but given what you describe I don't think that's too big of a problem.
--Upgrades should be on par or a bit ahead of Terran's upgrades. With chronoboost you should be able to be ahead in upgrades in most cases.
--Colossus are really good in numbers. One colossus isn't that great; two to three, maybe four will be really good. If they start piling vikings, switch to HT (and vice versa)
Do you have any replays of the collusos tech first that you do? |
| | The King in the North Fighting |
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| -MoOsE- United States. July 24 2012 07:51. Posts 233 | Profile # |
| @ LiSAuCE im actually 1k points right now in masters. Sorry I left that out. Thanks for the advice too |
| | The King in the North Fighting |
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| LiSAuCE United States. July 24 2012 08:00. Posts 33 | Profile # |
Haha, then I feel a bit foolish for trying to offer you advice.
Hope you don't mind. |
| | "Ashley Schaeffer BMW! Woo!" |
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| Cyro United Kingdom. July 24 2012 08:24. Posts 6119 | Profile Blog # |
Try throwing down double forge on 3gate robo and allocating 3-5 chrono's to probes, and then all else to getting 2/2 as fast as possible, and remember marauders are not very good against charge zealots, and marines do 6 damage.
Zealots have 1 natural armor so they do 5 damage, guardian shield reduces that to 3, being ahead by +2 armor reduces it to 1.
You likely wont get +2 ahead, but being 1 up is pretty easy if you are chaining chrono's well and you pretty much instantly win if you finish +2 armor before he has +1 attack done if he is playing bio anything near standard |
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