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| Atropin Germany. July 24 2012 07:29. Posts 94 | Profile # |
I am a Diamond protoss player, 37 years old who just plays in his free time, has no intention to become a pro gamer and JUST plays for fun. I do zero APM spam, except for putting probes on near mineral patches in the beginning and I always end up with approximately 50 APM (like in the replays not in sc2gears), which only improved since the BETA from maybe 35 to 50. I also still get supply blocked occasionally.
I do also think there are a lot of other people like me out there.
When I read about Strategies and build orders (or watch day9) I hear a lot about "How many production facilities can i support sitting on X bases".
On the other hand I hear a lot about "Spend your Gas and Minerals". On a progamer level these botrh might go hand in hand, but when someone plays with 50 APM (and in my age i do not expect my APM to get significantly better) those two asumptions do not seem to match each other.
When I lose games I do have a lot of minerals in the bank quite often, just because i lack the APM to micro my army, do my macro and warp in units at the exact time.
Thus, i developed a build with a FE, going 2 robos and 8 gateways. This allows me to move out with 5 immortals, 16-18 gateway units and a warp prism at approx. 10:45. Then i warp in gateway units out of 8 gateways in his main while attacking his third with my main army.
I know you would not be able to support this many production facilities out of 2 bases, nevertheless I do win a lot versus Zerg having a much higher APM then me.
The build is just an example, I do similar things in pvp and pvt. My point is that I do leave the path day9 has laid out for me to become a better gamer, because I realised that my APM will not improve a lot in my age and I wasnt having a lot of fun sitting on too many minerals all the time. Adjusting my builds according to my APM did put me from low diamond to high diamond (although that might just be because I had the time to play a bit more lately)
The point I would like to discuss now is: Given that you do not want to go pro, but just play for having fun and getting a bit better over time. So you think it makes sense to think these build like 'out of the box', just accepting your weaknesses and tweak your builds to compensate? |
| | Wer andern in die Möse beißt ist böse meist |
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| Yoshi Kirishima United States. July 24 2012 07:37. Posts 9002 | Profile Blog # |
Of course! For example, if you keep forgetting constant workers, (even pros do this!) you can queue up extra rounds. Same thing goes for production facilities. If you can't keep constant production, it can be better to make more (think TvP late game, you can have as many as 20 production buildings because you're micro'ing so much while fighting, so you need more buildings to remax asap)
Other things to keep in mind are what kinds of actions you have to prioritize. For example, if you don't have enough apm, you may want to pull back your army a bit during a fight to remacro, so that you don't make any blunders with your army while you're not taking care of it.
And doing things like this won't stop you from improving -- if your APM increases and/or your multitasking/micro/macro increases, then simply start cutting things down (like only make 1 robo for 2 base, etc.).
Adjust as necessary  Last edit: 2012-07-24 07:38:20 |
| | Mid-master streaming MECH ONLY + commentary www.twitch.tv/yoshikirishima +++ "If all-in fails, all-in again." | |
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| Xanatoss Germany. July 24 2012 07:42. Posts 517 | Profile # |
Spending money into additional production facilities instead of not spending it at all is of course better.
Although you should be aware of the fact that sooner or later you will face opponents who are able to spend their money without additional production facilities and if you are not able to do the same you will get stuck on a plateau you created yourself.
If you go for more production facilities I would advice to embrace the fact by going for Gateway-Heavy Builds like FFE -> Stargate -> Speedlot Archon in PvZ.Last edit: 2012-07-24 07:46:53 |
| | The chair slowly turns around. You see his face, but it can't be. He's not supposed to be here. Not him. Not a Protoss. Not THAT Protoss. MC says, "Hi Greg, long time no see." You back slowly out of the booth. But you can't. It's already forcefielded. |
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| lhr0909 United States. July 24 2012 08:01. Posts 531 | Profile Blog # |
| on KR ladder i saw a very interesting pvz build on ladder where my protoss opponent went zealot sentry void ray archon. Seems pretty effective, and the thing is, that guy had only 110 APM recorded in sc2gears while i had almost 300 (i think it is about 70-80 vs 160 in-game EPM) |
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| Cyro United Kingdom. July 24 2012 08:03. Posts 5716 | Profile Blog # |
but when someone plays with 50 APM (and in my age i do not expect my APM to get significantly better)
I dont understand how people can say this. I barely had 15apm when i started playing 2 years ago but developed that into ~180apm with only 15% redundancy playing zerg, and from a theoretical standpoint that could probably be doubled, i maintained that with only around 30-40 games this season (~6 weeks?), playing with the mindset of "I am X good and will never be better" seems so pointless, unless your goal is to sit at 50% win ratio at a level where your opponents are competant enough to destroy you because your army is so much smaller or tech/expansion/pushes later due to investing much more than neccesary into production facilities, queueing, supply buffer etc.
Getting extra production is a bandaid fix to help out at lower levels, nothing more reallyLast edit: 2012-07-24 08:07:11 |
| | Defender of Esports # "oh my god my overclock... I got a single WHEA error on the 23rd hour, 9 minutes" -Belial88 # "there really isn’t any actual need to have the minerals and gas constantly displayed" - Blizzard |
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| Yoshi Kirishima United States. July 24 2012 09:48. Posts 9002 | Profile Blog # |
On July 24 2012 08:03 Cyro wrote:
Show nested quote + but when someone plays with 50 APM (and in my age i do not expect my APM to get significantly better)
I dont understand how people can say this. I barely had 15apm when i started playing 2 years ago but developed that into ~180apm with only 15% redundancy playing zerg, and from a theoretical standpoint that could probably be doubled, i maintained that with only around 30-40 games this season (~6 weeks?), playing with the mindset of "I am X good and will never be better" seems so pointless, unless your goal is to sit at 50% win ratio at a level where your opponents are competant enough to destroy you because your army is so much smaller or tech/expansion/pushes later due to investing much more than neccesary into production facilities, queueing, supply buffer etc. Getting extra production is a bandaid fix to help out at lower levels, nothing more really
You see that kind of stuff in high level games too. For example, not many will queue just 1 round as terran lategame. They often have 2 rounds. Boxer is a big example -- he queues up a lot, like when his macro is slipping and he enters another battle, but he is still pretty good. Other specific situations are lategame TvP, where you get more production facilities to remax asap because you have to spend so much APM micro'ing in fight as well, and u need those reinforcements asap since his warpgates allow him to reinforce much faster.
Even pros use bandaid fixes for their play.Last edit: 2012-07-24 09:49:58 |
| | Mid-master streaming MECH ONLY + commentary www.twitch.tv/yoshikirishima +++ "If all-in fails, all-in again." | |
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| falcoiii Canada. July 24 2012 10:23. Posts 43 | Profile # |
I am in a similar boat as the op,in terran. The best answer of course is to spend your money as it comes in, but I sometimes find myself with a large bank and have an emergency macro procedure. I spend half of the money on production rbuildings ight then and there... If it is 2000/600, that is 6 rax (150 min each) or 3 fact (100 gas each). I find it gives enough production to spend the rest of the money when it comes online.
Also, having one unit building and one in the queue is not horrible for non-pro players, especially for smaller units (fast build time, low cost). Queueing 1 marine is 50 min idle for 25 seconds, queuing a Thor is300/200 idle for a minute.
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| Cyro United Kingdom. July 24 2012 10:46. Posts 5716 | Profile Blog # |
On July 24 2012 09:48 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:
Show nested quote +On July 24 2012 08:03 Cyro wrote:
but when someone plays with 50 APM (and in my age i do not expect my APM to get significantly better)
I dont understand how people can say this. I barely had 15apm when i started playing 2 years ago but developed that into ~180apm with only 15% redundancy playing zerg, and from a theoretical standpoint that could probably be doubled, i maintained that with only around 30-40 games this season (~6 weeks?), playing with the mindset of "I am X good and will never be better" seems so pointless, unless your goal is to sit at 50% win ratio at a level where your opponents are competant enough to destroy you because your army is so much smaller or tech/expansion/pushes later due to investing much more than neccesary into production facilities, queueing, supply buffer etc. Getting extra production is a bandaid fix to help out at lower levels, nothing more really
You see that kind of stuff in high level games too. For example, not many will queue just 1 round as terran lategame. They often have 2 rounds. Boxer is a big example -- he queues up a lot, like when his macro is slipping and he enters another battle, but he is still pretty good. Other specific situations are lategame TvP, where you get more production facilities to remax asap because you have to spend so much APM micro'ing in fight as well, and u need those reinforcements asap since his warpgates allow him to reinforce much faster. Even pros use bandaid fixes for their play.
But not to the extent of crippling yourself for no reason other than an artificial APM ceilingLast edit: 2012-07-24 10:47:26 |
| | Defender of Esports # "oh my god my overclock... I got a single WHEA error on the 23rd hour, 9 minutes" -Belial88 # "there really isn’t any actual need to have the minerals and gas constantly displayed" - Blizzard |
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| Mesha Bosnia-Herzegovina. July 24 2012 11:09. Posts 434 | Profile Blog # |
I am 28 (master) and also like you no serious intention about sc2 but fun. But i enjoy very much becoming better player and always have and did my own aggressive style of sc2 gameplay.
Just wanted to say something about your comment about low APM and how you don't expect to improve it and how that's maybe the fact that limits your play. I don't agree with that, from my experience its the brain that represents bottle neck for playing starcraft not your hands and APM. It's so easy to improve in sc2 as soon as you realise the problem and the solution. This sounds dumb but lot of people play mindlessly, never thinking about why and how. Sjow is example that when you know what you are doing and have good cycles of basic commands you don't even need apm. And if you still need, that's something that is easily improved by thoughtfull training.
For the last paragraph the answer is yes, completely agree with what you are saying, have as much fun as possible and get better bit by bit, and do your own thing. ^_^Last edit: 2012-07-24 11:11:26 |
| | Reality hits you hard bro. |
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| SC2John United States. July 24 2012 13:46. Posts 919 | Profile # |
I totally honestly don't understand not playing to become better.
In my opinion, you should never let your APM be the limiting factor on your plays or strategy. In SC2, the strategy and thought process comes first, understanding how the game works and how to execute an effective build, THEN the APM catches up after you do a build several hundred times.
If you're still having difficulties winning in general, you should be looking to your thought process first to make sure a strategy makes sense, then deciding whether you should try to play a different style. The key is to constantly spend your money, so if you build like 8 rax and 2 factories off of 2 bases and queue things up BECAUSE you fell behind in your micro, that's okay. But it shouldn't be a part of your strategy; you should endeavor to play as perfectly as possible, 5 rax/1 fact on 2 bases with constant production. |
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| SiNKami United States. July 24 2012 14:33. Posts 1758 | Profile Blog # |
I know this is the most obvious answer but it is really the only answer...
Play the game and don't worry about your apm. If it has really gotten to the point to where you can ONLY micro OR macro, then you need to work on your multitaking skills.. alot. age has nothing to do with how fast your hands move unless you have arthritis or something. You will get better. Maybe you should break out of the "I don't want to be a hipster and spam" mindset and just do it so your hadns can gets used to the feeling of moving fast. Thats how I raised my APM and im not ashamed to say that I average around 275 apm with around 40-45% redundancy. Spam can be a gift as well as a curse, its all about how you use it and when you do it. |
| | Im black. TrainerRedNA.382 "It's not about how many fights you've won, it's about who you've fought" |
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 Random_Guy09 Canada. July 24 2012 14:33. Posts 800 | Profile # |
On July 24 2012 11:09 Mesha wrote:
I am 28 (master) and also like you no serious intention about sc2 but fun. But i enjoy very much becoming better player and always have and did my own aggressive style of sc2 gameplay.
Just wanted to say something about your comment about low APM and how you don't expect to improve it and how that's maybe the fact that limits your play. I don't agree with that, from my experience its the brain that represents bottle neck for playing starcraft not your hands and APM. It's so easy to improve in sc2 as soon as you realise the problem and the solution. This sounds dumb but lot of people play mindlessly, never thinking about why and how. Sjow is example that when you know what you are doing and have good cycles of basic commands you don't even need apm. And if you still need, that's something that is easily improved by thoughtfull training.
For the last paragraph the answer is yes, completely agree with what you are saying, have as much fun as possible and get better bit by bit, and do your own thing. ^_^
Exactly look at GoOdy. He's pretty much known to have really bad macro (lots and lots of que'ing more than 2 rounds of production) but his decision making makes up for it (wonky builds that seem to work for him) which is why he was able to beat Nestea in Ro32 at TSL3 and beat MMA at the second Spring Arena.
Even Polt doesnt have APM as fast most of the koreans but is still able to post really good results. |
| | Grubby|Liquid`HerO|ST_Squirtle|ST_PartinG|CreatorPrime Na'Vi |
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| hecticSc Romania. July 24 2012 15:37. Posts 76 | Profile # |
If you watch protoss streams, especially Huk forgets a warpin round while fighting and micro-ing intensely. I do what he does, try to focus on micro and if i float minerals and gas after the engagement i just throw down 2-3 gates and/or expand. It's no biggie, more gates means faster reinforcing, technically it's best if you have 0 units, shitton of gates and a great economy so when he decides to push you can warpin an entire army in 20 seconds. That's just theoretical ofc.
To sum up:
1 base - 5 gate zealot sentry or 3 gate robo
2 base - 7 gate + upgrades or 5 gate robo upgrades or 8-9 gate zealot sentry stalker with just +1+1 for allin
vs some zergs you might need 4 gate double robo for mass roach and 2 observers so you know if he switches muta
3 base - go crazy, max out and then go up to 16 gates and 2 robos + mothership tech
No shame in not macro-ing perfectly btw, not even top top pros can do it perfectly always.
Diamond toss - used to be at mid-high master mmr 2 seasons ago in case it matters to you.Last edit: 2012-07-24 15:38:54 |
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 AzoriuS Poland. July 24 2012 16:18. Posts 74 | Profile # |
| Don't listen to people whos trying to tell you that you need to raise your apm especially if you play Protoss. Some of them(I dont point on anyone) think about apm like a competition about who have longer e-dick. We have two group of players. One of them are progamers who can really use mouse speed control to theirs favour. They know how to use it. The other group are players who spam apm and they do a lot of useless actions even in middle/late game. Of course not everyone but If I play diamond guy who has 180apm vs my 90 apm and I beat him in long macro game then Im sure that not everyone can use mouse speed control efficient. The most important thing is how fast YOU THINK rather than how fast you click. You can click fast but forget about macroing, injecting larva, spreading creep etc. If you think that rasing your apm will remove you macro problems etc. then you are wrong because you have to know how to use APM properly. Drunken Terran "Tarson" from my country analized games of mkp on homestory cup and he said that his mechanics are better and so much faster than his. Although theirs apm is similar. |
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| Powster United States. July 24 2012 16:27. Posts 644 | Profile # |
A person who spams uselessly will eventually have those useless actions become real actions. There are lots of people that try to downplay high apm when its actually extremely important if you ever want to be good.
You say you are diamond and play for fun or whatever.. then why not make extra gates and junk.. no reason not to.. Even more so because you are protoss. Protoss doesnt have to have an army that can survive the other guys army.. he just has to have an army that can survive by the time the attack arrives. Which means you can have extra production buildings that arent being used while yall are both macroing passively..
Anyway.. to me.. theres no point in playing a game if you dont aim to ever actually be good at it. Maybe you will never be a pro.. but at least working towards pro level skill is part of the fun to me. If I were you (which I am not lol) I would work on speed more than anything.. even if it makes you stay at your current level for a long time. Eventually that spam will be real actions that will help A LOT when you need it.Last edit: 2012-07-24 16:28:06 |
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| paintfive July 24 2012 16:33. Posts 766 | Profile # |
age has nothing to do with APM
unless youre steven hawkins
quickness and multi tasking comes with practice and you need the appropriate apm for it. your builds are working because they're weird and unexpected. and you're in diamond.Last edit: 2012-07-24 16:34:52 |
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| JulDraGoN Sweden. July 24 2012 16:44. Posts 20 | Profile # |
On July 24 2012 16:18 AzoriuS wrote:
Don't listen to people whos trying to tell you that you need to raise your apm especially if you play Protoss. Some of them(I dont point on anyone) think about apm like a competition about who have longer e-dick. We have two group of players. One of them are progamers who can really use mouse speed control to theirs favour. They know how to use it. The other group are players who spam apm and they do a lot of useless actions even in middle/late game. Of course not everyone but If I play diamond guy who has 180apm vs my 90 apm and I beat him in long macro game then Im sure that not everyone can use mouse speed control efficient. The most important thing is how fast YOU THINK rather than how fast you click. You can click fast but forget about macroing, injecting larva, spreading creep etc. If you think that rasing your apm will remove you macro problems etc. then you are wrong because you have to know how to use APM properly. Drunken Terran "Tarson" from my country analized games of mkp on homestory cup and he said that his mechanics are better and so much faster than his. Although theirs apm is similar.
It is very hard to increase APM unless you focus on it, just like everything else in life. Focus and dedication is the way to increase your skill at anything.
Spamming is a good way to get comfortable at playing at high speed, even though you might not use all of your APM and it is pretty useless. Playing faster than you are able, being outside of your comfort zone is a good way to make sure you never plateu in your skill and constantly increasing what your comfort zone is. The actual number, 90, 180, 200, 300 is not important as long as you just keep playing as fast as you can at all times, even if it means you making mistakes such as misclicks.
It is easier plugging in effective actions if you are already able to play fast than it is to add effecticve actions to a slow game play. Playing in ones comfort zone is only useful in tournament play or other matches where the only thing that matters is winning.
If you were to play soccer and aiming to become really good at it, you dont start by cute finesse dribbles, you start by running until you can run for 90 minutes. Same concept, well maybe not but still some food for thought.
APM does not equal skill, no one is saying that, but APM and mechanics (mostly mouse speed & mouse accuracy) is what's holding most people back.
As Axslav said, I'm paraphrasing a bit he was asked what the difference between him and a player like Liquid'HerO was:
"Take a player like HerO, he does some really terrible decisions at times, but his raw mechanical skill makes him get away with it. That's the difference between the very top players and the rest of us".
Thats the way I look at it. |
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| Atropin Germany. July 24 2012 16:56. Posts 94 | Profile # |
APM has indeed something to do with age, because your brain gets les flexible the older you get. Thus, you learn a lot slower. In addition I did not have several years of training during my youth (by playing bw for example). I am now getting in an age where I do notice the lesser flexibility of my brain (and the more experience, which is the trade off). However, I did not create the thread to have an APM discussion, but more to have an discussion about whether one could improve (at least moderately) if he leaves the "path of best practice" and adjusts his playstyle to his weaknesses.
It is just a coincidence that my weakness is low APM, maybe other players might have the weakness of poor decision making and will have to make up for this in other ways |
| | Wer andern in die Möse beißt ist böse meist |
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| SC2John United States. July 24 2012 17:04. Posts 919 | Profile # |
Again, I say that you should endeavor to practice as perfectly as possible, letting your skill catch up to your strategy. You shouldn't have to adjust your playstyle for APM, your APM should naturally adjust itself to your playstyle. If your goal is to improve, do something, then do it again but better. And then repeat it 1000x.
Don't do something, then decide you can't do it, and then do it worse. Because that won't make you better, you see. |
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| JulDraGoN Sweden. July 24 2012 17:07. Posts 20 | Profile # |
On July 24 2012 16:56 Atropin wrote:
APM has indeed something to do with age, because your brain gets les flexible the older you get. Thus, you learn a lot slower. In addition I did not have several years of training during my youth (by playing bw for example). I am now getting in an age where I do notice the lesser flexibility of my brain (and the more experience, which is the trade off). However, I did not create the thread to have an APM discussion, but more to have an discussion about whether one could improve (at least moderately) if he leaves the "path of best practice" and adjusts his playstyle to his weaknesses.
It is just a coincidence that my weakness is low APM, maybe other players might have the weakness of poor decision making and will have to make up for this in other ways
Sorry, but I think that this is such a weird mentality.
If you know your weakness is X then practice X until it isn't your weakness any more. If you think that your main weakness is APM, if you actually just dedicate yourself and try to focus soley on that, I give you a guarantee that you will see improvement within a couple of weeks regardless if you are 12 years old or 81. If you don't I will eat my socks on stream.
Trying to find workarounds for ones weaknesses instead of trying to improve on them is something I will never understand. If it is a short term plan, like "Tomorrow I'm playing against my friend in a BO5 and I just have to win", then fine, but that's not the case here is it?
Isn't the fun part getting better and seeing the results of your improvement rather than just winning some pointless ladder games against people you don't know?
Im just a bit curious, I dont mean any offence. |
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