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| xRiotZx United States. July 24 2012 09:30. Posts 45 | Profile # |
Okay, TvZ as all Terran players know, is just retarded, and broken to a point where it's not even cool to play anymore... But I've come across the 4 OC, (which I execute differently and on the fly.), but it still is fairly effective as it allows you extreme economic advantages going into the late game, and is very easy to defend...
But I somehow find myself getting beat by Zerg, even when I out macro them, just because of the amount of units they are able to create.
In this game I played very well and I was only slow on my 2-2 bio and 1-0 mech, but this didn't set me back far as I had tanks holding down my 3rd and banshees working up in my main.
Somehow I still lose to the machine that is Zerg, the fungals definitely hurt, but he didn't do much damage with his banes, I really don't see how I could have micro'd better, or macro'd for that matter.
http://drop.sc/226836
Now, for the moderators, if this isn't in the right section, why don't you move it, or link me to the right section, instead of closing the thread down with the usual "Wrong section bla bla."-two-line-sentence.
Thanks in advance.
User was warned for balance whine/not tagging |
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| aNaZnBabO United States. July 24 2012 09:51. Posts 54 | Profile Blog # |
u did not play well at all, pretty bad macro u need like 10 barracks when ur doing the build ur doing. u have to be able to make 20 marines at once and keep the pressure with drops while u push. should be able to win because zergs cant make banes fast enough.
might as well mech if u play so passive
User was warned for this postLast edit: 2012-07-24 09:52:26 |
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| stimdm4 July 24 2012 10:30. Posts 5 | Profile # |
you get supply blocked at around 10. 30 for a couple of minutes. in that time, u could have been maxed given that there was no trading between u and ur opponent. no one build will work well for u, if u cannot remember to build supply depots, or only remember to do so after u have been blocked for over a minute. especially not a build that requires u to build so many depots as the one u r attempting to do. if u cannot spend the massive income that 4 orbitals give u, u might as well build one less, but make units and scvs constantly. once u can do that, u will beat an opponent as weak as the one u faced this game. so the problem is not zergs abiltity to produce many units, but ur inability to produce any, as long as u dontt remember to build depots, workers, and units. |
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| MstrJinbo United States. July 24 2012 10:49. Posts 780 | Profile # |
In this game I played very well and I was only slow on my 2-2 bio and 1-0 mech, but this didn't set me back far as I had tanks holding down my 3rd and banshees working up in my main.
Somehow I still lose to the machine that is Zerg, the fungals definitely hurt, but he didn't do much damage with his banes, I really don't see how I could have micro'd better, or macro'd for that matter.
I suggest you rewatch the replay with a critical eye on what actually is going on in the game as opposed to how you felt it was going. Because the game you are describing is not at all what I saw in the replay. What I saw were substantial problems with macro and micro but mostly macro in this game.
I'm going not going to touch on the 5 CC on 2base build order too much. For all I know it could be used in the GSL next week and revolutionize TvZ. However regardless of how many OCs you have, Rule #1 is to spend all your resources. When you have a game where you are running 4000 minerals in the bank through most of it (despite queuing up marines 5 at a time), you need to ask yourself "why is the money so high?". If your answer is "Not enough barracks" build more the next time.
When you have an attack that totally fails (as your 15:30 attack did), ask yourself "would this have worked if I attacked sooner, later, with more units, with drops, or with tanks?" Then next time adjust accordingly. |
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| Mephtral Sweden. July 24 2012 10:54. Posts 49 | Profile # |
On July 24 2012 09:30 xRiotZx wrote:Okay, TvZ as all Terran players know, is just retarded, and broken to a point where it's not even cool to play anymore... But I've come across the 4 OC, (which I execute differently and on the fly.), but it still is fairly effective as it allows you extreme economic advantages going into the late game, and is very easy to defend... But I somehow find myself getting beat by Zerg, even when I out macro them, just because of the amount of units they are able to create. In this game I played very well and I was only slow on my 2-2 bio and 1-0 mech, but this didn't set me back far as I had tanks holding down my 3rd and banshees working up in my main. Somehow I still lose to the machine that is Zerg, the fungals definitely hurt, but he didn't do much damage with his banes, I really don't see how I could have micro'd better, or macro'd for that matter. http://drop.sc/226836Now, for the moderators, if this isn't in the right section, why don't you move it, or link me to the right section, instead of closing the thread down with the usual "Wrong section bla bla."-two-line-sentence. Thanks in advance.
After watching the replay, i feel no need to be nice about this, so i'm gonna be honest, your macro is terrible, your micro, well, you dont actually do alot of micro (Unless you count running away as "micro"i guess)
Your upgrades were extremely slow (starting engi bays at 12 minutes..) at 13 minutes you had 2,7k minerals banked up for no reason at all you stopped producing workers before you even got 60, altho you did build a few more later on i think, it's still not enough workers. Your third wasn't "late" but you should have it earlier if you dont push in early game.
He attacked into your siege line at 15:00 and he lost more or less everything he had, you had the game won there, even with your horrible macro Then you decided to a-move all your marines on creep, while leaving all your tanks at home, and you didn't even try to split vs his banelings
Altho considering you had like 4,5k minerals in the bank, that shouldn't be a problem if you had any production at home to rebuild your army, so lets look at your production: 2 factories 2 starports 3 barracks PLEASE explain this?, this makes no sense, and it's not enough, especially not 3rax.
At 19:00 your Planetary burned down because you didn't repair it after he attacked you., and so you were down to less than 1 mining base. it's almost ok tho, you're floating like 6k minerals,good thing you've added on 5 more rax (no addons), still not enough tho.
At 19:40 you started your 2-2 upgrades, most bronze/silver players start 2-2 by mistake while exploring the different upgrades by then.
Just watching the replay made my head hurt, mostly because of how in your post you say you cant see any way to micro or macro better than you did.. so i expected something alot better then this.
Just to make it clear: You didn't outmacro your opponent You didn't outmicro your opponent You didn't outplay your opponent You didn't expand more than your opponent You didn't expand faster than your opponent You didn't upgrade faster than your opponent You didn't upgrade more than your opponent You didn't tech in any way faster then your opponent You didn't do anything at all better than your opponent, except for whining in the chat and then make a thread on TL where you say it's a imbalanced matchup..that you did well.
Dont get me wrong, your opponent had terrible macro and army control too, just not as bad as you. what league are you in? i assumed this was around platinum - mid diamond, so if you are lower then that, i'm sorry for being too mean about this, it's just that if you're above gold league, you shouldn't float money like that in any part of game except 20+ minutes in or while doing 3+ drops at a time and spending all your apm on that. and you should realise that by yourself.
I hope it's possible to read this, i'm quite tired, so i apologize if it's difficult to read.
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| Lavitage2 July 24 2012 11:05. Posts 46 | Profile # |
| he's plat, you can see it by following the drop.sc link |
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| Mephtral Sweden. July 24 2012 11:08. Posts 49 | Profile # |
On July 24 2012 11:05 Lavitage2 wrote: he's plat, you can see it by following the drop.sc link
Didn't know that, thanks :o |
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| stoopid_boi July 24 2012 11:27. Posts 18 | Profile # |
I just had to watch this replay after reading all the previous comments XD
1:40 i lol'd @ ur spam clicking XD Why did you get your orbital on 14 scvs - 1 scv cut...???? 3:00 no scoutin on the zerg at all? 3:40 doing a 1 rax cc, before 2nd depot, your meant to cut marines and not workers 4:30 you saw hes overlord move over and yet still scouted the wrong position on shakuras? you should send your scv that finishes the rax to scout, you'll see a lot more than you did 6:30 you really need constant scv production, i dont see how you only have 19 scvs at this point 7:45 - just realised, whats the point of your 2nd ramp barracks positioning? it doesn't make a wall or much of a funnel? 8:20 500 minerals already? 9:00 you need much more gas much earlier with what you're trying to do 9:20 750 minerals and rising~ 10:10 focus on your own game please, its 10 minutes in the game and your floating 1100 minerals 10:40 supply blocked until 11:30 because of 5th cc on 2 bases 11:30 supply blocked - depots start @ 12:20? lol XD 13:05 that ling blocked ur third for a mighty long time 13:50 what are the turrets for exactly? 14:00 if only that was a planetary 15:00 lol i think your stutter stepping actually hurt u more than it helped... 15:30 counter time.... why are your tanks not coming? and why are you attacking spines and not going for bases? 16:00 10 banes kill your whole army yay! for marine micro~ 16:15 only 5 marines making a time on 3 bases yay! 17:45 your adding barracks!! i think 15 is better than 5 =] 19:00 did your planetary really burn down? 19:40 2 2 starting!!! - most players diamond and up would have 3 3 mid way done by now 20:30 i think you may want some marauders against ultras... 21:45 guess that wasn't the best place to build the rax after all-back to 5 marines at a time? your micro is actually hurting you, you need to realise your have 3k minerals in the bank and making units is far more superior to stutter stepping against lings 23:50 your first medivacs are coming out... you need to realise that they are your marines best friends... 24:30 good stuff going after the infestors!!! 26:30 lol'd @ this fight 27:40 ur argument makes no sense... whats an infestor gonna do with no energy? and what army is the zerg gonna have with 50 infestors?
General things: Keep your minerals down Have a game plan - a composition which you are building towards Harass a zerg, make him spend larvae on units and not drones There is micro other that stutter stepping - its called splitting Actually scout past the 5 minute mark - i think you scanned once in the whole game Try to counter hes units and not just blindly go marine tank banshee - you saw the ultralisk cavern and did nothing about it Try to actually understand the game and the matchup
To put it kindly, look at the facts and dont rage as much, focus on the things you're doing wrong and prioritise your actions more =] gl hf =] |
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| Shoebawka47 Canada. July 24 2012 12:12. Posts 8 | Profile # |
I'm a terran too and im finding the matchup a little hard- but theres room for improvement in your play so I'll try and help
After watching it heres what happened : You took too long to expand . It feels like your too scared to expand. (Flashbacks of games when your would expand and 100 lings and banes and mutas would come destroy it ) That wont happen and if it does , at 9-10 minutes , hes all in , and all u need to do is lift and defend it wait 60 seconds till you have enough units and break out .
1) I like your low ground wall off - Put the bunker behind it, Not infront waiting for speedlings to eat it , if he rushes u with that its over, Make that bunker in a better position . 2) Just expand at 9 mins. and get a bunker in a good position behind min line. Stop being so scared of ling run bys . You being scared is killing your own eco. Just Expand, and your gonna realize that its pretty easy to defend that .
Your 4rth and 5th should just go down at 14 minutes.
The more aggressivily u expand the more even this match-up will feel you. 1 good bunker with a depot in front will defend against infinity lings at expansions.
Orbital commands are alot better then planitarys in tvz- Just lift it up if a bunch of banes come or ultras , late game scvs are pretty easily replacable and in most cases your not even going to want above 40 scvs come ur 4rth and 5th orbital . Planetarys cant lift and they just die to 20 agressive banes. If a zerg is going to commit to killing an expansion , what is going to save it? being able to lift it or having a slow firing gun on the top . Replace all your planetarys with O/C's and a sensor tower
Here's what your 3rd and 4rth should look like: http://imgur.com/LDjsP NAT http://imgur.com/TG09t http://imgur.com/7eFXF - worlds safest expo
In case of a huge run by , pull ur scvs and surrond the bunker. Like i said in the begining tho , around 14-15 minutes ur scvs dont matter as much anymore its almost a good thing if he kills some off. 5 O/C's is like having 20 extra scvs so at this time in the game having 50 scvs is more then enough,
PS. Get rid of this whole imbalance mindset. The only person your hurting is yourself, your mentally setting yourself up to play bad. To be honest there is no need for you to post this kind of garbage on TeamLiquid. Your complaining the entire time to this random guy on the internet and its rude that your coming for help for a community that discourages this behaviour. Get rid of the text on the game before you submit it , especially if it has that kind of garbage in it. Last edit: 2012-07-24 12:13:31 |
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| laoji United Kingdom. July 24 2012 21:54. Posts 339 | Profile # |
just from x4'ing through i think the first major issue to resolve is your production management, i'm paused at 15:56 right now and you have 4000 minerals and only 3 barracks, your army could be so much bigger so much earlier! =)
GL m8 |
| | Affection is responsible for nine-tenths of whatever solid and durable happiness there is in our lives.- C. S. Lewis |
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| xRiotZx United States. July 24 2012 22:08. Posts 45 | Profile # |
Okay, I'm very sorry. I didn't know you all take balance rants so seriously. Looking back on it my macro was shitty.
I could have had 10 rax down by 16 and 3-3 by 17, while hitting him with banshees or drops, also he managed to keep me off a third the entire game...
Despite the level of rudeness in all of your posts, you have all been fairly helpful thank you. Shoebawka you were very helpful thank you.
Also this was my first time performing this build (so the timing is different etc, it needs practiced).
If anyone cares to come back to this thread and re-analyze my play, I'm sure there's a Zerg out there prepared to kick my ass some more, but I promise to play better this time. 
Last edit: 2012-07-24 22:11:34 |
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| stimdm4 July 24 2012 22:47. Posts 5 | Profile # |
"I could have had 10 rax down by 16 and 3-3 by 17, while hitting him with banshees or drops, also he managed to keep me off a third the entire game..."
chances are u couldnt have done all of that at once, because ur multitasking is not good enough. it would however definately be enough if u just build depots, scvs, and units constantly, and then amove. if that isnt enough anymore, u can still think about harassment,
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| MstrJinbo United States. July 24 2012 22:53. Posts 780 | Profile # |
On July 24 2012 22:47 stimdm4 wrote:
"I could have had 10 rax down by 16 and 3-3 by 17, while hitting him with banshees or drops, also he managed to keep me off a third the entire game..."
chances are u couldnt have done all of that at once, because ur multitasking is not good enough. it would however definately be enough if u just build depots, scvs, and units constantly, and then amove. if that isnt enough anymore, u can still think about harassment,
Watch the replay closer. He easily could have done all those things. It doesn't take a lot of APM to build extra barracks and set up a third. Basically if you don't have something constructive to say, don't say anything.
Also for the people replying to this thread
u -> you ur -> yourLast edit: 2012-07-24 22:55:07 |
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| xRiotZx United States. July 25 2012 00:11. Posts 45 | Profile # |
Okay, here's round 2...
I was late to 3-3, that's about it, I pushed toward his main, didn't do me a bit of good, I spread DECENTLY, but it didn't matter... Once again I was kept off my third, this time because of late tanks, but I really don't see what I'm doing wrong here...
I did send like 8 hellions to die, but that was my only blunder I'd say.
http://drop.sc/227066
The funniest part of this replay is that he didn't even make infestors... I'm sure it would have been much worse had he done so.Last edit: 2012-07-25 00:12:02 |
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| `dunedain July 25 2012 00:24. Posts 451 | Profile # |
All I can say is -- In order to win a TvZ, you need confidence.
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| | "In order to be created, a work of art must first make use of the dark forces of the soul." ~Albert Camus |
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| xRiotZx United States. July 25 2012 01:27. Posts 45 | Profile # |
You need that in any matchup... I just can't seem to get by his banes... My biggest problem is that I can't set up tanks in time to pop, and I can't spread bio quick enough to heavily negate the banes... Even if I make it through his first wave of death, he's probably working another one up...
That happened quite a few times in the last replay. |
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| Hollow27 United States. July 25 2012 02:03. Posts 111 | Profile # |
On July 25 2012 00:11 xRiotZx wrote:Okay, here's round 2... I was late to 3-3, that's about it, I pushed toward his main, didn't do me a bit of good, I spread DECENTLY, but it didn't matter... Once again I was kept off my third, this time because of late tanks, but I really don't see what I'm doing wrong here... I did send like 8 hellions to die, but that was my only blunder I'd say. http://drop.sc/227066The funniest part of this replay is that he didn't even make infestors... I'm sure it would have been much worse had he done so.
Your initial trouble is in your opening strategy. At the most basic level, you can either be aggressive, play economically, or tech. You open 2 rax -> expand, putting on 6 marine pressure. You can't reinforce cross map condemned. Either 1 rax fe so you get better economy, or do a better aggressive build than a 6 marine.. poke, frankly at 5:40.
Your strategy towards spending money is like this - "OH SHIT, I HAVE 500 MINERALS. BETTER THROW DOWN A COMMAND CENTER." But you didn't produce constantly from your Orbital and Barracks, which is why that was happening. You also need to get gasses earlier; double gas at 7:40 doesn't cut it champ. Your tech is infinitely delayed. When a CC finishes, immediately make it into an orbital. 4 CC's with 22 workers. That's a mistake.
Stim first is generally preferable to combat shields, but whatever, that's nothing too major. You went double e-bay at 10, but you made both of them with the same worker. Try to avoid that by boxing your mineral line to get several workers when you build something. Queing building production is bad.
Your factory also dropped around 10. That is far too late. You can't go pure marine; you need tech with them, be that medivacs (most commonly, for healing and drops.) But pure marine doesn't cut it. Be that as it may, your push at 11 should have won you the game, if you split. Go to Darglein's micro trainer, select the split level, and do that a coupe of times. Maybe more than a couple. His banelings were ludicrously cost effective, because you clumped so much.
You need medivac production before 13 minutes.
You make a command center at your third when you have 2 just sitting in your base. Those should have been floated earlier, and waaaay earlier than 14. Counter intuitively, expanding faster makes them easier to hold. It allows you to get more income faster, set up bunkers and sim city faster, etc.
Your drop at 16:30 was decent, but the purpose of a drop is generally to split their army and focus to damage their economy. You really should have dropped each base with a single medivac, instead of all of them to the main.
If you micro'd at 20 minutes, you would have won that game easily. Don't know what else to tell you champ. Viking production starting after your entire army died. Two tanks made before that point.
The rest of the game isn't really commenting on; though your qq was amusing to me.
To sum Learn a real build, instead of haphazardly dropping CCs you never expand with. This build should be a 1 rax FE, probably a three orbital Bomber-esque style. Focus on earlier tech, constant unit production. Darglein's micro trainer and some games with a practice partner to improve control. To address your lack of speed, you can prespread your units.
And I recommend in the future not posting games where you QQ in game, it will lower the quality/quantity of feedback. |
| | Everything I'm not made me everything I am. |
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| xRiotZx United States. July 25 2012 03:19. Posts 45 | Profile # |
On July 25 2012 02:03 Hollow27 wrote: Show nested quote +On July 25 2012 00:11 xRiotZx wrote:Okay, here's round 2... I was late to 3-3, that's about it, I pushed toward his main, didn't do me a bit of good, I spread DECENTLY, but it didn't matter... Once again I was kept off my third, this time because of late tanks, but I really don't see what I'm doing wrong here... I did send like 8 hellions to die, but that was my only blunder I'd say. http://drop.sc/227066The funniest part of this replay is that he didn't even make infestors... I'm sure it would have been much worse had he done so.
Your initial trouble is in your opening strategy. At the most basic level, you can either be aggressive, play economically, or tech. You open 2 rax -> expand, putting on 6 marine pressure. You can't reinforce cross map condemned. Either 1 rax fe so you get better economy, or do a better aggressive build than a 6 marine.. poke, frankly at 5:40. Your strategy towards spending money is like this - "OH SHIT, I HAVE 500 MINERALS. BETTER THROW DOWN A COMMAND CENTER." But you didn't produce constantly from your Orbital and Barracks, which is why that was happening. You also need to get gasses earlier; double gas at 7:40 doesn't cut it champ. Your tech is infinitely delayed. When a CC finishes, immediately make it into an orbital. 4 CC's with 22 workers. That's a mistake. Stim first is generally preferable to combat shields, but whatever, that's nothing too major. You went double e-bay at 10, but you made both of them with the same worker. Try to avoid that by boxing your mineral line to get several workers when you build something. Queing building production is bad. Your factory also dropped around 10. That is far too late. You can't go pure marine; you need tech with them, be that medivacs (most commonly, for healing and drops.) But pure marine doesn't cut it. Be that as it may, your push at 11 should have won you the game, if you split. Go to Darglein's micro trainer, select the split level, and do that a coupe of times. Maybe more than a couple. His banelings were ludicrously cost effective, because you clumped so much. You need medivac production before 13 minutes. You make a command center at your third when you have 2 just sitting in your base. Those should have been floated earlier, and waaaay earlier than 14. Counter intuitively, expanding faster makes them easier to hold. It allows you to get more income faster, set up bunkers and sim city faster, etc. Your drop at 16:30 was decent, but the purpose of a drop is generally to split their army and focus to damage their economy. You really should have dropped each base with a single medivac, instead of all of them to the main. If you micro'd at 20 minutes, you would have won that game easily. Don't know what else to tell you champ. Viking production starting after your entire army died. Two tanks made before that point. The rest of the game isn't really commenting on; though your qq was amusing to me. To sum Learn a real build, instead of haphazardly dropping CCs you never expand with. This build should be a 1 rax FE, probably a three orbital Bomber-esque style. Focus on earlier tech, constant unit production. Darglein's micro trainer and some games with a practice partner to improve control. To address your lack of speed, you can prespread your units. And I recommend in the future not posting games where you QQ in game, it will lower the quality/quantity of feedback.
The strategy is based on this lightly, Griffith 4OC (vs. Zerg)
And it really sets the metagame up well for Terran, unlike 1 Rax FE.
The poke is just to deal a little bit of early damage and let me take the lead, it doesn't really play into the outcome.
As for the rest, I would agree, my gas tech was waaaaay too late. But as for the OCs in my base, I mean really, haven't you heard of macro OCs? They spam mules and make scvs so you keep up with the enemy economy? Yeah.
I should have expanded aggresively within the first 10 minutes taking 3-4 bases with PFs and takes, while dropping his expos. |
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| Shoebawka47 Canada. July 25 2012 04:04. Posts 8 | Profile # |
Once again in your second replay:
Its 14 minutes and you havent set up your third. Your 4th and 5th should be getting established. I don't know if this game was played before or after you were given advice.
You need to lift one of those CC's in your main , and just land it at 9 minutes, put your bunker and depot down . Your safe.
If your going to play a 2 rax. Don't commit so hard, the best thing a 2 rax can to is set up a nice contain that will keep a zerg on 2 base for 8-9 minutes into the game . Use a QxC bunker when you two rax.AkA just build a bunker at the bottom of his natural ramp. (You can't reallly play a 12/14 2 rax on daybreak or tal darem, because of the layout of the natural ramp , so its not a good idea to use that on those map.)
http://imgur.com/hVlTM --- contain . Good for scouting , Good for denying third .
Expand at your third at 9 , Expand at your third at 9 , Expand at your third at 9 , Expand at your third at 9 And by the way after your third is up . No more straight up pushing until your maxed at around 15ish. You only drop .
Note: Hellions after about ten minutes are pretty useless. -Yes, they are amazing against lings but there gets to a point that when his army is big enough a fungle, too many speedlings on creep , too much creep. Its really hard to get efficiently out of them. Especisally for their supply cost. (Stop making them)
Note: Killing drones past 10 minutes is useless, Your drops want to target the hatcherys. A second reason hellions are useless. When the zerg is on 5 hatch the drone production will remake the drones faster then you can literally kill them with hellions in their worker line . Even though hes not making units when he makes drones. Your essentially trading minerals for minerals inefficently. + All the apm your should be using on your macro. Cut hellions out of your play , unless its before 10 minutes.
^ also above poster say PF at ur 4rth or third.. Never PF unless your going Mech in TvZLast edit: 2012-07-25 04:15:05 |
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| Hollow27 United States. July 25 2012 04:29. Posts 111 | Profile # |
The strategy is based on this lightly, Griffith 4OC (vs. Zerg)
And it really sets the metagame up well for Terran, unlike 1 Rax FE.
I'm glad you're using liquidpedia, but that build is outdated. Like, this is some season 2 metagame. "Unlike other Terran builds, this one actually favors long rush distances (as it weakens 2-rax Kyrix baneling busts). Maps with easy to obtain naturals/3rds are also highly favorable (Shakuras Plateau, Scrap Station, Delta Quadrant, Jungle Basin, non close position Lost Temple)" 1 Rax FE is definitely the metagame. It's definitely a cleaner, overall better build. My problem with the 6 marine push is that it makes you weaker defensively if they decide to go allin, and the most common Zerg opener at the moment is the 6 queen style, which would render your push worthless. Better to just invest in more economy.
But as for the OCs in my base, I mean really, haven't you heard of macro OCs? They spam mules and make scvs so you keep up with the enemy economy? Yeah.
Macro OCs/Hatches are inferior to expanding in every way. If you're going to build them, actually expand with them. You also only got ~55 SCVs that game (I'd have to check the replay again to see the exact number.) So you didn't use them except for mules, hardly. If you want to get a macro OC, get one max and expand with it as soon as feasibly possible.
I should have expanded aggresively within the first 10 minutes taking 3-4 bases with PFs and takes, while dropping his expos.
That's the right idea! GL executing it! I gotta disagree with shoebawka47 about Planetaries; feel free to drop them as your third and fourth. At a high level it should be avoided in favor of the extra income, but you're bound to float a bit of minerals(All of us baddies are ), that extra mule isn't going to win you the game, but having that expo alive might. |
| | Everything I'm not made me everything I am. |
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