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| Solacee United Kingdom. July 24 2012 11:54. Posts 18 | Profile # |
I was doing well in all match ups i'm a high gold, i constantly playing plats right now but im just struggling and i don't know what to do.
http://replayfu.com/download/gHGrfg
http://replayfu.com/download/Hw4tJm
http://replayfu.com/download/jcCB3j
http://replayfu.com/download/xm3Lqk
http://replayfu.com/download/nBh91g
My problems from what I can gather
- Not expanding enough
- Not building enough probes sometimes
- horrible engagements
- my builds can be random a lot
- I dont recognise as many timing as i can
- i cant hold the 11min push in tvp
Another thing when I play against mutas I insta-lose unless I'm doing a timing all in.
When trying to hold against muta's/ the 11minute push i'm trying to use the templar tech path
*edit* I seriously struggle in PvZ to incorporate new tech paths and units into my composition
Any advice I receive will be greatly appreciated I can provide more replays if needed, finally any feedback based on my first self analysis is also appreciated.
Last edit: 2012-07-24 12:00:22 |
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| iremnant3847 July 24 2012 12:17. Posts 129 | Profile # |
| EDIT: I watched the replays and I think I'm not qualified here to give you any sort of advice. I'm terribly sorry! Last edit: 2012-07-25 10:34:02 |
| | LiquidHerO / SKMC / SlayerSPuzzle / EGHuK / CreatorPrime |
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| darkmetabee Canada. July 24 2012 12:32. Posts 23 | Profile # |
High (big deal?) Plat
1st Game: No scouting, Your first sight of his army is 10+ baneling crashing into your army, you got caught off guard
Sentries are good units to make versus Zerg.
2nd Game: Bad probe production, his army was therefore much superior (Carriers didn't add much). Make Colosi and gateway units with upgrades, the usual to max army.
3rd Game: No macro, couple units will not hold off mass roaches, you need to build more than 2 units
4th Game: Very bad probe production, No chrono used whatsoever, you need constant probe production, go colosi at least, 2 immortals is enough, but you lost because your ecnomony was inferior
5th Game: Base trade, no chorno use, bad probe production
You need to improve:
1st: Probe production, chrono as soon as possible, worst case you have too much money, so what?
2nd: Less micro, more macro, try to build units over only focusing on controlling units
You expand just fine, strategy is not as important yet, no matter how good the strategy, to make it to plat, you need to make probes and also chrono them.
Play vs ai easy, see how long it takes you to max out unobstructed, then see how long it takes a pro to max out, their worker production is better, and they spend their money, just practice making workers, then after spend your money on anything.Last edit: 2012-07-24 12:35:14 |
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| Shaoer United States. July 24 2012 12:39. Posts 38 | Profile # |
High Dia/Low masters here. I watched game one and I do have a few things to say.
Zergs have an amazing ability to macro/produce, never just let them make stuff and... make stuff! For example, in game one you could've gone for a 4 gate +1 timing at 8 minutes to disrupt his macro(I saw you put down 3 gates and was expecting this). Except you just put down 2 more gates. It'd be fine if you were going for a 6 gate +1 9 min timing, but you werent.
Also, I stress the use of sentries. I noticed you were going blink but sentries are the key to PvZ army. Sentry/Immortal beats mass roach(with good control ofcourse). Mass Sentry with good control beats all ling/bling. Sentry/ Zealot beats mass lings. Sentry/Stalker beats mass mutas because of Guardian shield. So next time get some sentries. Because in this case you would've FF'd your natural and prevented a baneling bust. The only reason zergs don't bling bust protoss like they do to terran is because of Forcefields. Too powerful!
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| JulDraGoN Sweden. July 24 2012 14:38. Posts 20 | Profile # |
On July 24 2012 12:39 Shaoer wrote:
High Dia/Low masters here. I watched game one and I do have a few things to say.
Zergs have an amazing ability to macro/produce, never just let them make stuff and... make stuff! For example, in game one you could've gone for a 4 gate +1 timing at 8 minutes to disrupt his macro(I saw you put down 3 gates and was expecting this). Except you just put down 2 more gates. It'd be fine if you were going for a 6 gate +1 9 min timing, but you werent.
Also, I stress the use of sentries. I noticed you were going blink but sentries are the key to PvZ army. Sentry/Immortal beats mass roach(with good control ofcourse). Mass Sentry with good control beats all ling/bling. Sentry/ Zealot beats mass lings. Sentry/Stalker beats mass mutas because of Guardian shield. So next time get some sentries. Because in this case you would've FF'd your natural and prevented a baneling bust. The only reason zergs don't bling bust protoss like they do to terran is because of Forcefields. Too powerful!
I watched game 1 as well.
This is really strange adivce, I don't want to be rude but you don't play protoss do you?
If he wanted to do a zealot +1 timing he wouldn't have gone 1 gate - twighlight, this was clearly an attempt at a fast blink +2 timing (~12 stalkers + blink at around 9/9:30) which is completely fine and you cant really spare gas to just get some sentries. With that type of build you only get sentries if you absolutley need them. Problem was scouting, not build order.
Also, the +1 Zealot timing only (sort of, if he delays roach warren) works against 3 hat no gas builds, which the Zerg clearly didn't go for.
Game 1:
Your chronoboost usage is bad, if you are going for a macro build, chrono probes there is no reason to have 100 energy on your nexus 3:40 into the game if you are doing a FFE, because of that your probe count was really low and the rest of your build gets delayed.
Main problem: Scouting.
You didnt scout which is why you lost. You did see his fast gas but not what he was using it for, was he going speedlings into third? Roach bust? Banes?
You need to make sure that he is going for a fast third base using the FFE you did in that game. A common thrid base timing from zerg is 4:20 so have a probe checking at that point but seeing as he took a fast extractor you should have atleast checked at 5:00. If you cant get a probe to scout because of speedlings, chrono zealot and send it+ a probe (different routes) to the third, it is really important to know what your opponent is doing!
You did send a probe at around 6:20 but to his natural, if you sent it to his third and saw there was none, you could actually get those extra cannons down that you needed and gotten the sentries out.
It's all about scouting and playing proactive my dear brotoss.
Anyways, I have to scuddle of to work and will check the others later, gl!
Last edit: 2012-07-24 14:55:52 |
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 Belial88 United States. July 24 2012 14:57. Posts 5217 | Profile Blog # |
High Dia/Low masters here.
High (big deal?) Plat
i'm a high gold,
There's no such thing as 'high' or 'low' until you are in the 'top' league (gm is invite only, so at the moment it's masters). Unless you are using the MMR plug-in on sc2ranks, you can't tell if you are high or low in a league based on your points or rank, because it won't matter and is all based on your division, until you are masters.
Rank never matters, actually (for example, I'm not even top 10 in my division in masters, but with my points value I'd be top 8 in most, although much harder divisions actually exist than mine). Points don't tell as much since in the less-than-top leagues, there's a grey area for promotion that isn't solid, and divisions are literally just a random 100 people that could be anywhere in range in MMR, and the ones that are good enough to be promoted can get promoted before they hit top 8 (although most people's mmr is more stable than that).
There's also pretty big gaps between leagues. Like the range between masters and diamond, is larger than diamond to silver, so 'high diamond' is quite a funny concept.
Blizzard's ladder is to make you feel better. Sorry to say, but whatever you 'think' you are based on looking solely at your ladder or division page, is much more cheery than what the reality is. Ie, even though I had a top 8 last season, I was actually really low because my division was just a bunch of bad people (the number of people in low masters is huuuuge, the number of high masters out there is actually extremely small in comparison). And right now, I'm 900 points masters, hey I'm only 600 points below what is usually the #1 guy in everyone's division, around 1500 points, so I'm doing okay right? Well, wrong, because actually that translates to MMR that is not even breaking halfway between the top masters/GM line MMR cut-off and the diamond/masters cut-off, so 900 points and top 8 looks and sounds a lot better than what it really is, that I'm not in the top 50% in masters, even though in my division im the top 10% and by points im in the top 50%.
So when someone says high diamond/low masters, I don't think they realize that the skill gap between the two in MMR is actually about as large as the skill gap between a truly high diamond and a gold, meaning the saying is about as accurate as saying "high silver/low diamond" or "mid-masters/#1 GM"
just... the more you know. Last edit: 2012-07-24 15:00:32 |
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| ScienceNotBusiness United States. July 24 2012 15:08. Posts 91 | Profile # |
On July 24 2012 14:57 Belial88 wrote:There's no such thing as 'high' or 'low' until you are in the 'top' league (gm is invite only, so at the moment it's masters). Unless you are using the MMR plug-in on sc2ranks, you can't tell if you are high or low in a league based on your points or rank, because it won't matter and is all based on your division, until you are masters. Rank never matters, actually (for example, I'm not even top 10 in my division in masters, but with my points value I'd be top 8 in most, although much harder divisions actually exist than mine). Points don't tell as much since in the less-than-top leagues, there's a grey area for promotion that isn't solid, and divisions are literally just a random 100 people that could be anywhere in range in MMR, and the ones that are good enough to be promoted can get promoted before they hit top 8 (although most people's mmr is more stable than that). There's also pretty big gaps between leagues. Like the range between masters and diamond, is larger than diamond to silver, so 'high diamond' is quite a funny concept. Blizzard's ladder is to make you feel better. Sorry to say, but whatever you 'think' you are based on looking solely at your ladder or division page, is much more cheery than what the reality is. Ie, even though I had a top 8 last season, I was actually really low because my division was just a bunch of bad people (the number of people in low masters is huuuuge, the number of high masters out there is actually extremely small in comparison). And right now, I'm 900 points masters, hey I'm only 600 points below what is usually the #1 guy in everyone's division, around 1500 points, so I'm doing okay right? Well, wrong, because actually that translates to MMR that is not even breaking halfway between the top masters/GM line MMR cut-off and the diamond/masters cut-off, so 900 points and top 8 looks and sounds a lot better than what it really is, that I'm not in the top 50% in masters, even though in my division im the top 10% and by points im in the top 50%. So when someone says high diamond/low masters, I don't think they realize that the skill gap between the two in MMR is actually about as large as the skill gap between a truly high diamond and a gold, meaning the saying is about as accurate as saying "high silver/low diamond" or "mid-masters/#1 GM" just... the more you know.
According to MMR prog used on sc2gears, the range between dia and masters is about 450 mmr, which is the same as the range between low gold to diamond. High diamond is not a funny concept considering the diff in mmr between dia and masters is the biggest, except for masters to GM, which is pointless to discuss. Your logic is backwards. |
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| SlackerSC Australia. July 24 2012 15:12. Posts 41 | Profile # |
On July 24 2012 14:57 Belial88 wrote:There's no such thing as 'high' or 'low' until you are in the 'top' league (gm is invite only, so at the moment it's masters). Unless you are using the MMR plug-in on sc2ranks, you can't tell if you are high or low in a league based on your points or rank, because it won't matter and is all based on your division, until you are masters. Rank never matters, actually (for example, I'm not even top 10 in my division in masters, but with my points value I'd be top 8 in most, although much harder divisions actually exist than mine). Points don't tell as much since in the less-than-top leagues, there's a grey area for promotion that isn't solid, and divisions are literally just a random 100 people that could be anywhere in range in MMR, and the ones that are good enough to be promoted can get promoted before they hit top 8 (although most people's mmr is more stable than that). There's also pretty big gaps between leagues. Like the range between masters and diamond, is larger than diamond to silver, so 'high diamond' is quite a funny concept. Blizzard's ladder is to make you feel better. Sorry to say, but whatever you 'think' you are based on looking solely at your ladder or division page, is much more cheery than what the reality is. Ie, even though I had a top 8 last season, I was actually really low because my division was just a bunch of bad people (the number of people in low masters is huuuuge, the number of high masters out there is actually extremely small in comparison). And right now, I'm 900 points masters, hey I'm only 600 points below what is usually the #1 guy in everyone's division, around 1500 points, so I'm doing okay right? Well, wrong, because actually that translates to MMR that is not even breaking halfway between the top masters/GM line MMR cut-off and the diamond/masters cut-off, so 900 points and top 8 looks and sounds a lot better than what it really is, that I'm not in the top 50% in masters, even though in my division im the top 10% and by points im in the top 50%. So when someone says high diamond/low masters, I don't think they realize that the skill gap between the two in MMR is actually about as large as the skill gap between a truly high diamond and a gold, meaning the saying is about as accurate as saying "high silver/low diamond" or "mid-masters/#1 GM" just... the more you know.
You can estimate it based on your performance against given opponents and their ranks though. I'd classify myself as 'high plat / low Diamond', because I've been sitting comfortably in Platinum league for 2 seasons and just been promoted to Diamond. People who are comfortably sitting at the top of their diamond ladder may wipe the floor with me, but I'm consistantly better than your average Platinum player.
What you say about MMR is fine and all, but I still think it's a valid description you can use (as long as your not basing it solely off the ladder rank #). |
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| JulDraGoN Sweden. July 24 2012 15:12. Posts 20 | Profile # |
On July 24 2012 14:57 Belial88 wrote:There's no such thing as 'high' or 'low' until you are in the 'top' league (gm is invite only, so at the moment it's masters). Unless you are using the MMR plug-in on sc2ranks, you can't tell if you are high or low in a league based on your points or rank, because it won't matter and is all based on your division, until you are masters. Rank never matters, actually (for example, I'm not even top 10 in my division in masters, but with my points value I'd be top 8 in most, although much harder divisions actually exist than mine). Points don't tell as much since in the less-than-top leagues, there's a grey area for promotion that isn't solid, and divisions are literally just a random 100 people that could be anywhere in range in MMR, and the ones that are good enough to be promoted can get promoted before they hit top 8 (although most people's mmr is more stable than that). There's also pretty big gaps between leagues. Like the range between masters and diamond, is larger than diamond to silver, so 'high diamond' is quite a funny concept. Blizzard's ladder is to make you feel better. Sorry to say, but whatever you 'think' you are based on looking solely at your ladder or division page, is much more cheery than what the reality is. Ie, even though I had a top 8 last season, I was actually really low because my division was just a bunch of bad people (the number of people in low masters is huuuuge, the number of high masters out there is actually extremely small in comparison). And right now, I'm 900 points masters, hey I'm only 600 points below what is usually the #1 guy in everyone's division, around 1500 points, so I'm doing okay right? Well, wrong, because actually that translates to MMR that is not even breaking halfway between the top masters/GM line MMR cut-off and the diamond/masters cut-off, so 900 points and top 8 looks and sounds a lot better than what it really is, that I'm not in the top 50% in masters, even though in my division im the top 10% and by points im in the top 50%. So when someone says high diamond/low masters, I don't think they realize that the skill gap between the two in MMR is actually about as large as the skill gap between a truly high diamond and a gold, meaning the saying is about as accurate as saying "high silver/low diamond" or "mid-masters/#1 GM" just... the more you know.
Good points a bit OT, but what I assume people who say "High Gold" or "High Diamond" mean is that they faced atleast 50/50 against players in the division above them rather than just talking about being top 8 or having a certain amount of rating points.
Basically they are just beeing on the verge of promotion to the league above, wouldn't you call them "high [league]"-players? |
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| iremnant3847 July 24 2012 15:18. Posts 129 | Profile # |
On July 24 2012 14:57 Belial88 wrote:There's no such thing as 'high' or 'low' until you are in the 'top' league (gm is invite only, so at the moment it's masters). Unless you are using the MMR plug-in on sc2ranks, you can't tell if you are high or low in a league based on your points or rank, because it won't matter and is all based on your division, until you are masters. Rank never matters, actually (for example, I'm not even top 10 in my division in masters, but with my points value I'd be top 8 in most, although much harder divisions actually exist than mine). Points don't tell as much since in the less-than-top leagues, there's a grey area for promotion that isn't solid, and divisions are literally just a random 100 people that could be anywhere in range in MMR, and the ones that are good enough to be promoted can get promoted before they hit top 8 (although most people's mmr is more stable than that). There's also pretty big gaps between leagues. Like the range between masters and diamond, is larger than diamond to silver, so 'high diamond' is quite a funny concept. Blizzard's ladder is to make you feel better. Sorry to say, but whatever you 'think' you are based on looking solely at your ladder or division page, is much more cheery than what the reality is. Ie, even though I had a top 8 last season, I was actually really low because my division was just a bunch of bad people (the number of people in low masters is huuuuge, the number of high masters out there is actually extremely small in comparison). And right now, I'm 900 points masters, hey I'm only 600 points below what is usually the #1 guy in everyone's division, around 1500 points, so I'm doing okay right? Well, wrong, because actually that translates to MMR that is not even breaking halfway between the top masters/GM line MMR cut-off and the diamond/masters cut-off, so 900 points and top 8 looks and sounds a lot better than what it really is, that I'm not in the top 50% in masters, even though in my division im the top 10% and by points im in the top 50%. So when someone says high diamond/low masters, I don't think they realize that the skill gap between the two in MMR is actually about as large as the skill gap between a truly high diamond and a gold, meaning the saying is about as accurate as saying "high silver/low diamond" or "mid-masters/#1 GM" just... the more you know.
Since you are a respected member of the community with lots of StarCraft 2 experience, I think you should know better than to spark a whole conversation about 'high or low' ranking on ladder when this Protoss player here just wants some good advice. Again, I love your guides, feedback, and all.....but this isn't very helpful. Say what you want and stuff, but this isn't really the place. Last edit: 2012-07-24 15:18:47 |
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| Belial88 United States. July 24 2012 16:04. Posts 5217 | Profile Blog # |
yea the post got longer as i didnt want to seem like a dick with a short post and then it just kept getting longer and longer.
With more information on who your opponents are, you can estimate a little more, but the ladder places you against a wide range of opponents, and some of those opponents may not have MMR respective to their league, they just have bonus pool. Obviously, if more opponents are higher league than your league, that's a good sign. It's not so much the range between diamond (to masters), but the range between low masters and diamond, since masters is huge, so low masters itself is larger than diamond. Of course it can depend on what you classify as low/high of a league as well (do you cut by 1/3rds for low/med/high, or do you cut it based on population or something closer to rank, ie top 1-100 scale, in which case it'd be more like a 50/40/10 cut, because the scale between low low masters and high low masters can be considered quite big).
Totally off topic though. interesting discussion, albeit very depressing.Last edit: 2012-07-24 16:04:51 |
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| trbot Canada. July 24 2012 19:10. Posts 142 | Profile # |
On July 24 2012 16:04 Belial88 wrote:
yea the post got longer as i didnt want to seem like a dick with a short post and then it just kept getting longer and longer.
With more information on who your opponents are, you can estimate a little more, but the ladder places you against a wide range of opponents, and some of those opponents may not have MMR respective to their league, they just have bonus pool. Obviously, if more opponents are higher league than your league, that's a good sign. It's not so much the range between diamond (to masters), but the range between low masters and diamond, since masters is huge, so low masters itself is larger than diamond. Of course it can depend on what you classify as low/high of a league as well (do you cut by 1/3rds for low/med/high, or do you cut it based on population or something closer to rank, ie top 1-100 scale, in which case it'd be more like a 50/40/10 cut, because the scale between low low masters and high low masters can be considered quite big).
Totally off topic though. interesting discussion, albeit very depressing.
JulDraGoN hit the nail on the head earlier. When someone says high diamond/low masters, they almost certainly mean that they're facing masters players a good percentage of the time. That's what I meant when I said high plat... I was facing diamond players 50% of the time. You can't say you're just normal mid-range plat if you're facing diamond as much as plat. Of course, I got promoted shortly thereafter.
As for our friendly original poster, what helped me through gold/plat was picking a good build for each matchup (forge fe to immortal sentry allin for pvz, nexus first with fast colo and fast +armor zealots for pvt, 3 stalker rush to 3gate robo expo for pvp), and trying to execute it well.
Re: expansion timings, it's a different game for each matchup. Versus protoss, you can expand when your opponent does (patrol obs around his expos!), or when you have enough stuff that he can't break you if he pushes with your army. You can take a third when you can do without 4 zealots, or when your opponent does. Versus zerg, you can obviously ffe and grab your natural. When you take your third is the big question in the matchup, and it all depends on your build, and how it's designed to hold huge pressure and protect your third. Zerg's don't like when you get three bases! Versus terran, I like to take a super fast natural (nexus first), and you can take your third whenever you can hold terran's aggression. A good timing is a few minutes after you hold the "11 minute push" (often 9:30-11:00), after you've got templar tech.
As for holding the 11 minute terran push, I think doing some economic build like nexus first can really help you out in that respect. It becomes MUCH easier with a very strong economy. If you learn a good build, you can have two colo out before then. (In fact, I can have 2 colo and 100 supply by 10:00.)
And when you -do- get up on 2-3 bases, remember to add more production (gateways, robo) for each new base you take! If you're on 1, 3gate robo is good. Two bases, 6-gate robo is good. Three bases, something like 8-10 gate robo, and then add lots more gateways once you're maxed out. This way, you can remax properly after a big engagement and drive those victories home.Last edit: 2012-07-24 19:13:41 |
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| Solacee United Kingdom. July 24 2012 22:16. Posts 18 | Profile # |
| Thanks for the help everyone. |
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