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| the p00n Netherlands. July 24 2012 14:21. Posts 533 | Profile # |
I would like to discuss the best reaction to a zerg who blocks my nat with a hatchery of his own. I have played a few times against this with mixed results.
There is a topic about it here, but it is mostly from the zerg's point of view and offers very little relevant information to me.
I scout at 9pylon and generally opt for a nexus first, so my forge isn't at 14. Basically, my forge goes down as soon as the zerg hatchery goes down. What I have been doing is making one cannon next to it, and then starting a second cannon - canceling that one if he cancels his hatchery, otherwise letting it finish. I chrono out a zealot as well.
I have found this to be an effective response, but there are many variations. In one game, the zerg followed it up with roaches and managed to get a few roaches in my main, which resulted in an immediate defeat. Basically, I was wondering what the optimal reaction is. Do I block his nat at all (that's what I have been doing so far)? Do I cannon his nat? His third?Last edit: 2012-07-24 14:22:10 |
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| mewo United States. July 24 2012 14:30. Posts 199 | Profile # |
| I don't think you cannon anything unless there is a really good spot. Pretty sure you can kill the hatch before it gets a queen out so it mostly puts z behind i think. |
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| Xequecal United States. July 24 2012 14:32. Posts 380 | Profile # |
| Nexus first is pretty weak to this. The best advice I can give you is if your 9 scout probe passes a drone heading your way in the middle of the map, you should probably give up nexus first and place a forge. Last edit: 2012-07-24 14:32:38 |
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| SC2John United States. July 24 2012 16:55. Posts 925 | Profile # |
It's fairly easy to handle, honestly. All I do is send 2 probes down at 16 food to chase the drone out; this is universally before zerg can make the hatchery after a 14pool. If he does hatch first in your base, consider the game won. Block his ramp with pylons and cannon the natural up FTW.
In your own natural, chrono a zealot and make 2 cannons. If he made an early pool, kill the hatch and proceed as normal. If he went for hatch first in your natural, your next step is to use your tech advantage to stop a potential hydra/ling nydus.
But honestly, 95% of the time sending 2 probes to your natural will work just fine. |
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| Nyast Belgium. July 24 2012 18:04. Posts 499 | Profile # |
You shouldn't let a hatch in your nat, else many Zergs let the hatchery finish ( despite the cannon firing at it ), and with the creep you're so delayed you become all-in.
What I find the most effective is to keep the probe that's gonna build the nexus or forge on the area under the nexus, to block any drone. If the drone attacks, I pull out another probe from the main.
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| mewo United States. July 24 2012 20:51. Posts 199 | Profile # |
| Played this out vs some ladder zerg in high masters. 2 cannons and a chrono zealot kill the hatch before queen and only 3 larva spawn which is easy. Z ends up too few larva and cant really get ahead like they usually do. I think it is really bad for zerg. |
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| ant-1 Canada. July 24 2012 23:17. Posts 139 | Profile Blog # |
| I have meexed feeling about this too, usually I'm behind the zerg after killing it with cannons. I'm wondering if that's the reason why a lot of high-level toss forge at 14 despite being on a large map or watching a late pool. |
| | The Days Run Away Like Wild Horses Over the Hills |
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| Ouija United States. July 24 2012 23:51. Posts 26 | Profile # |
| I tried it once or twice against a Protoss and with 3 probes, a cannon, and your first zealot once it pops out you should be perfectly fine. Last edit: 2012-07-24 23:56:51 |
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| Sated England. July 25 2012 00:24. Posts 3406 | Profile Blog # |
On July 24 2012 14:21 the p00n wrote:I would like to discuss the best reaction to a zerg who blocks my nat with a hatchery of his own. I have played a few times against this with mixed results. There is a topic about it here, but it is mostly from the zerg's point of view and offers very little relevant information to me. I scout at 9pylon and generally opt for a nexus first, so my forge isn't at 14. Basically, my forge goes down as soon as the zerg hatchery goes down. What I have been doing is making one cannon next to it, and then starting a second cannon - canceling that one if he cancels his hatchery, otherwise letting it finish. I chrono out a zealot as well. I have found this to be an effective response, but there are many variations. In one game, the zerg followed it up with roaches and managed to get a few roaches in my main, which resulted in an immediate defeat. Basically, I was wondering what the optimal reaction is. Do I block his nat at all (that's what I have been doing so far)? Do I cannon his nat? His third?
Pull 4 Probes to attack the Hatchery (prevents the Hatchery from gaining any HP) and build two Cannons timed with the Hatchery finishing (one slightly after the other so that you can cancel the second one if they cancel the Hatchery). Two Cannons should finish off the Hatchery before a Queen can hatch if you pulled Probes quickly enough (if a Queen gets out and lays a Creep Tumour, you're pretty screwed - it takes so long for creep to clear up) and two Cannons can also kill an egg before it hatches units into your base (assuming you focus fire quickly enough - but focus more on the Hatchery if you suspect a Queen is being built).
You lose quite a bit of mining time from your Probes, but I think it is worth it to prevent a Queen ever getting a chance to plant a tumour. I suppose you could say that this is the "overly safe" response, but you won't get any silly losses this way.
EDIT:
The same works for a hidden Hatchery planted inside your base in a more offensive manner (hoping for Spine Crawlers or something of that ilk).
EDIT2:
I always go 13 Forge so I can plant Cannons sooner than you can - however, it is more about the Probe pull timing. As long as you keep the Hatchery health at a low enough level that Cannons can kill the Hatchery before a Queen gets out of it, you won't have any problems.Last edit: 2012-07-25 00:26:51 |
| | EU Masters Protoss Playing For Team SC2Improve ~ www.sc2improve.org ~ "I'd rather play a strategy that is worse but that I feel confident in than play the better strategy not really feeling it and not being 100% behind it" - Grubby | |
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| tehemperorer United States. July 25 2012 00:40. Posts 2180 | Profile Blog # |
Here's a replay of it happening: http://drop.sc/221043
I always 9 scout so on certain maps if you see an early drone scout thats a red flag for trickery, bring 1 probe to your natural and attack him. Don't let him plant hatchery just as if you were blocking his natural, when your probe gets low on life build a pylon to self block and bring another probe down to attack him... cancel the pylon before it finishes and make sure your probe occupies the space there and you will handle it with least money lost. |
| | Knowing is half the battle... the other half is lasers. |
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| Payson United States. July 25 2012 00:44. Posts 321 | Profile Blog # |
Like tehemperorer said above me, the main thing is, the Zerg should never send a drone scout unless he plans on doing some cheesy shenanigans. With overlords they should always have a general idea of what your opener is, and around 7-8 minutes they sack 1-2 to try to see if you are teching, about to expand off a greedy build, or doing some form of a 7/8 gate all-in. There is NEVER a reason for the Zerg to send a drone when most Protoss players choose to go for FFE.
Always 9 scout after your pylon as protoss to really know what the Zerg is trying to do. If I ever see the Zerg send a drone scout, usually I plan on them wanting to proxy hatch or they likely do some form of early pool play and want to scout me immediately. With the drone scout I usually throw down the forge and send an extra probe to my natural to deny and form of proxy hatch. |
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| How2getMaster Germany. July 25 2012 01:12. Posts 124 | Profile # |
I handeld it this way: If I see a Drone coming I just put the Probe that builds the 14 Forge on hold position and pull another one to work on the Drone. Because of the hold position he can´t even place the hatch. 
Greetings. |
| | DiamondToss looking for a team :) |
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| ineversmile United States. July 25 2012 01:54. Posts 571 | Profile Blog # |
There's also this option: ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/PKK3Z.jpg)
If you get blocked, you build a Macro Nexus right away, which means you will have the same finished Nexus timing as if you hadn't been blocked, and therefore your probe production will not be hurt. Then you finish the wall-off and deal with the blocking hatch as normal, and when that's done you put your expansion Nexus down and you have triple probe production and triple chrono. You have to mine your natural long distance for a little while, but you get that high probe count insanely quickly (especially with the mass chronoboost) because it times out just like taking a very fast third.
The extra nexus produces 25 energy (one boost) every 45 game seconds, so it's shaving off 10 seconds of build time every 45 seconds. That makes it worth less than one gateway in terms of unit production, but in terms of high duration research and units with a long build time, it has more value. There's also more potential chronoboost tricks for warp gate timings where you warp in a round of units, boost all the gates, and then warp everything in 10 seconds sooner than it should be. Figure you're spending 125 minerals for a pylon that gives +2 supply, so for the extra probe production and chronoboost, you are investing 275 minerals. Not bad, during a hatch block. As an added bonus, you can keep making 2 probes at a time while you build a Mothership, if you want to get a fast Mothership to take your third--and then you can boost the hell out of it and have it finish in under 2 minutes.
We were talking about this for a few pages in the Skytoss thread. I don't think it's worthwhile to get a Macro Nexus when you don't get hatch blocked, but it seemed strong for the situation at hand whenever I used it to counter a hatch block. So I think it warrants discussion, here. It's something of a giveaway that you're planning to play very macro-heavy, since you are laying your cards out on the table..but if you scout what your opponent is doing behind the block, it's safe against all-ins and it's going to race the drone count pretty hard. |
| | Nostradamus.146@AM, Nostradamus.398@KR, Nostradamus.922@EU http://www.teamliquid.net/blog/ins |
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| tehemperorer United States. July 25 2012 02:20. Posts 2180 | Profile Blog # |
On July 25 2012 01:54 ineversmile wrote:
There's also this option: <image>
If you get blocked, you build a Macro Nexus right away, which means you will have the same finished Nexus timing as if you hadn't been blocked, and therefore your probe production will not be hurt. Then you finish the wall-off and deal with the blocking hatch as normal, and when that's done you put your expansion Nexus down and you have triple probe production and triple chrono. You have to mine your natural long distance for a little while, but you get that high probe count insanely quickly (especially with the mass chronoboost) because it times out just like taking a very fast third.
The extra nexus produces 25 energy (one boost) every 45 game seconds, so it's shaving off 10 seconds of build time every 45 seconds. That makes it worth less than one gateway in terms of unit production, but in terms of high duration research and units with a long build time, it has more value. There's also more potential chronoboost tricks for warp gate timings where you warp in a round of units, boost all the gates, and then warp everything in 10 seconds sooner than it should be. Figure you're spending 125 minerals for a pylon that gives +2 supply, so for the extra probe production and chronoboost, you are investing 275 minerals. Not bad, during a hatch block. As an added bonus, you can keep making 2 probes at a time while you build a Mothership, if you want to get a fast Mothership to take your third--and then you can boost the hell out of it and have it finish in under 2 minutes.
We were talking about this for a few pages in the Skytoss thread. I don't think it's worthwhile to get a Macro Nexus when you don't get hatch blocked, but it seemed strong for the situation at hand whenever I used it to counter a hatch block. So I think it warrants discussion, here. It's something of a giveaway that you're planning to play very macro-heavy, since you are laying your cards out on the table..but if you scout what your opponent is doing behind the block, it's safe against all-ins and it's going to race the drone count pretty hard.
That seems really absurd. Just 9 scout always and be prepared to pylon block yourself and pull 2 probes; easy.
On another note, no Protoss should be doing blind 14 forges all the time. In fact they should probably never do them, unless they're playing on one of the smaller 4 player maps that have all spawn positions allowed and habe just toked some and are feeling paranoid.Last edit: 2012-07-25 02:22:02 |
| | Knowing is half the battle... the other half is lasers. |
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| KingLumps July 25 2012 05:17. Posts 71 | Profile # |
| ^ why? I blind 14 forge 14 scout every game vs zerg. You get extra mining time and are safe vs any early pool. You better be 9 scouting if you're not gonna 14 forge. It comes down to personal preference, nexus first vs forge first isn't game changing. |
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| tehemperorer United States. July 25 2012 05:35. Posts 2180 | Profile Blog # |
On July 25 2012 05:17 KingLumps wrote:
^ why? I blind 14 forge 14 scout every game vs zerg. You get extra mining time and are safe vs any early pool. You better be 9 scouting if you're not gonna 14 forge. It comes down to personal preference, nexus first vs forge first isn't game changing.
Because most Zergs don't early pool and will drop a hatch if you haven't scouted them yet and a 14 forge will put you behind from the very beginning.
- your extra mining time doesn't make up for the 150 minerals you spent on the forge before nexus
- 9 scout every game yes; it:
- doesn't impact when 10th probe is made, and allows you to plant nexus when it should be planted
- with 9 scout you won't make a forge or cannon until you have to which means more cb probes
- you can detect early pools at about 1:40 on 2 player maps which is plenty of time
- you can hatch block at nat and third easily, making him choose to send early lings at your base or kill blocking pylon
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| | Knowing is half the battle... the other half is lasers. |
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| SiCkO_ United States. July 25 2012 06:31. Posts 452 | Profile # |
On July 25 2012 05:35 tehemperorer wrote:
Show nested quote +On July 25 2012 05:17 KingLumps wrote:
^ why? I blind 14 forge 14 scout every game vs zerg. You get extra mining time and are safe vs any early pool. You better be 9 scouting if you're not gonna 14 forge. It comes down to personal preference, nexus first vs forge first isn't game changing.
Because most Zergs don't early pool and will drop a hatch if you haven't scouted them yet and a 14 forge will put you behind from the very beginning. - your extra mining time doesn't make up for the 150 minerals you spent on the forge before nexus - 9 scout every game yes; it: - doesn't impact when 10th probe is made, and allows you to plant nexus when it should be planted - with 9 scout you won't make a forge or cannon until you have to which means more cb probes - you can detect early pools at about 1:40 on 2 player maps which is plenty of time - you can hatch block at nat and third easily, making him choose to send early lings at your base or kill blocking pylon
to clarify, you are still planting the forge before the nexus, right? |
| | SKT Toss line Fighting! | Bisu, BeSt, By.Sun! | |
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| tehemperorer United States. July 25 2012 06:48. Posts 2180 | Profile Blog # |
On July 25 2012 06:31 SiCkO_ wrote:
Show nested quote +On July 25 2012 05:35 tehemperorer wrote:
On July 25 2012 05:17 KingLumps wrote:
^ why? I blind 14 forge 14 scout every game vs zerg. You get extra mining time and are safe vs any early pool. You better be 9 scouting if you're not gonna 14 forge. It comes down to personal preference, nexus first vs forge first isn't game changing.
Because most Zergs don't early pool and will drop a hatch if you haven't scouted them yet and a 14 forge will put you behind from the very beginning. - your extra mining time doesn't make up for the 150 minerals you spent on the forge before nexus - 9 scout every game yes; it: - doesn't impact when 10th probe is made, and allows you to plant nexus when it should be planted - with 9 scout you won't make a forge or cannon until you have to which means more cb probes - you can detect early pools at about 1:40 on 2 player maps which is plenty of time - you can hatch block at nat and third easily, making him choose to send early lings at your base or kill blocking pylon
to clarify, you are still planting the forge before the nexus, right?
No not unless I have to... It usually goes like this (2Player map or 4player with restricted spawns):
9 py at natural, send him to scout
15~16 pylon block natural no matter what, send probe to 3rd*
17 nexus, forge, pylon, gate in whatever order you think is appropriate
continue probe production, place cannon when forge done, then do your build.
If you do a blind 14 forge, you are delaying your own Nexus. If you imagine the concept of being "all-in" as a sliding scale of 1-10, 1 being macro and 10 being all-in, making a forge on 14 blindly when Zerg takes an uncontested natural and 3rd (the typical response to FFE) makes you go up the scale about a point since your probe count and total chrono-boosts throughout the game is less than if you went 17 nexus when you can.
* If you don't plant pylon and instead wait for drone to come out, sometimes the drone can escape or go unnoticed and plant at their 3rd without delay, so plant pylon even if drone not coming down yet and just go to third. He will see pylon, send drone to third, and you can block with probe after you've placed your forge already. Make a pylon after attacking him and run, then he has to decide what to do next... If he leaves, cancel pylon and sit there lettign your shields come up. This allows your nexus to start early and finish long before his hatches do and is a good way to stay even with his drone production. If he made lings, he can send them to die on your cannons (never happens), or he has to keep them home to kill the natural pylon. Then he can plant his natural, and move to take your third, but you've already moved your probe away haven't you? Delaying his hatch like this really cuts into his larva and queen count, though good zergs can mitigate this "damage" relatively well.
If still curious, dl these and watch first few minutes it'll give you an idea of what you mean. Everything after the early game dance is up to you as a player:
http://drop.sc/225593
http://drop.sc/226707
http://drop.sc/226268
Some players don't agree with this too, but I'd like to see the reason why. The TLDR of this is, if I told you Zerg can't make zerglings for another minute, not counting time in transit or build time, would you still put down the forge? |
| | Knowing is half the battle... the other half is lasers. |
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| Bean_SC United States. July 25 2012 07:21. Posts 2 | Profile # |
When I send my 9 scout out if I see a drone on the way then I send two probes to my nat (Just like zerg sometimes pulls 2 drones to repond to toss not allowing him to put his nat hatch down).
It's pretty effective in helping to stop this sort of thing. |
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| oOOoOphidian United States. July 25 2012 08:14. Posts 1236 | Profile # |
| The way proleague and GSL players have been dealing with it is to pull 5 probes immediately and build one cannon in range of the hatchery. The key is to just stop them from getting a queen out, otherwise you've lost any hope at getting a natural expansion. This response has worked well for me when I offrace Protoss. Zergs on KR do either this or 6 pool almost every game, so I've experienced it quite a bit. |
| | http://www.twitch.tv/ooooophidian |
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