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| Balinor New Zealand. July 26 2012 07:15. Posts 34 | Profile # |
Hi TL,
The vast majority of Syllabear players I meet in pubs choose to jungle. I am aware that Lone Druid is a fairly poor jungler because his bears DPS is too low in the early game. I understand Sylla is played as a solo hero in lane competitively because 'he can farm 1v2 safely' and he can farm more in a lane with decent last hit than he can in the jungle.
I have a few questions on how the pros pull this off that I was hoping some experienced TL poster may be able to answer  .
1. Is Lone Druid equally as good at solo mid against one hero as he is at solo side lane 1v2?
2. Is there a fairly standard item progression that competitive Sylla players go for? 2x boots, poison orb and then rush radiance?
3. Can someone explain the technique for solo Syllabear? Do you last hit with your bear and keep hero back? Last hit with hero and use bear to harass? Try to last hit with one and deny with the other? Is there some way of stopping the lane getting pushed that makes 1v2 viable?
4. Can somebody give me a match id for a recent competitive match where Sylla has been played well? I've tried watching vods but the commentators never spend time watching the solo Lone Druid farming >_>.
By the way if it matters i'm playing in high-very high ranked matches so looking for advice that will be effective in that bracket . |
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| 5-s United States. July 26 2012 07:59. Posts 884 | Profile # |
| I wouldn't say he's a fairly poor jungler. I'd rather jungle then face a hard lane with sylla, but obviously it isn't as good as getting freefarm. He jungles slower than lycan, but is also much easier to jungle then lycan since there's very little micro involved. He's fine at mid. There's not really a standard item progression for sylla, at least in the Euro / American scene (someone who follows the Chinese scene can inform on the standard build there.) Mostly, in 1v1 situations, you harass with bear, and last hit with hero. Your lane shouldn't ever get pushed with syllabear, because you have 2 units that can deny at half. Watch Chinese games if you want to learn Syllabear, I haven't been particularly impressed with players here in the west very much on this hero. |
| | I liked Dota before it was Mainstream. |
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| tube United States. July 26 2012 08:09. Posts 1197 | Profile Blog # |
bloodseeker
User was warned for this post |
| | Two in harmony surpasses one in perfection. |
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| Pseudoku Canada. July 26 2012 08:15. Posts 458 | Profile # |
| The correct way? Like BurNIng or Sylar. |
| | "An operating system is similar to a government. Like a government, it performs no useful function by itself." - Silberschatz, Galvin, Gagne |
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| x6.Chouji United States. July 26 2012 08:21. Posts 49 | Profile # |
1. Lone Druid is not a good solo mid because he has almost 0 gank potential in the early game. He cannot use runes very effectively, even a summoned bear with haste or dd will have troubles if they don't get a lucky proc. Hence bottle is pretty much useless on him (and he never needs mana). He CAN be a decent solo in that he can farm/not die/ sometimes even get a kill, but in the current metagame mid really needs the power to roam and get kills or help other lanes, both of which bear is weak at.
2. Depends on the state of the game. Lone druid needs farm either way to either go the radiance core build or the cuirass/basher core build, depending on the game he needs to get tanky first or can almost go with absolutely no items and straight radiance. When jungled he pretty much needs a midas to stay on-par with other hero's levels and to farm a quick 18-22 minute radiance.
If he solo lanes. tanky items such 2 boots, orb, mek, vanguard or even boots of tranquility can be useful.
3. Solo syllabear has 2 styles, suicide lane solo & easy lane solo, he can effectively solo suicide lane by either just 1v1ing a solo hero, or if he is against more than 1 hero (dual or trilane) he can pull creeps from behind the enemy tower and lead them to his own tower to get last hits/experience. This method guarantees him at least on-par levels and some farm. On dire he can also start to kill ancients at lvl 5-7 if he is absolutely starved.
Solo on the easy lane is relatively simple. Control group 1 - You + bear // Control group 2 - Bear (while this may be optional this is pretty much how every pro plays him). You go for last hits/denies with Control group 1 (double the damage) or you use Control group 2 to right click the enemy hero to harass while without using any Control groups you select your hero for last hits. And if you get a root you go back to Control group 1 to attack the rooted enemy.
4. I believe if you look at Darer or M5 they use a standin that almost always plays only Syllabear, Chinese prefer to have the safelane, farming syllabear while Europeans prefer the suicide lane, creep pulling syllabear. I do not save or look at replays.
I play in the highest MMR matches usually on page 1-2 |
| | Be not afraid of growing slowly, be afraid only of standing still. - Chinese Proverb |
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| ahswtini Northern Ireland. July 26 2012 08:28. Posts 2698 | Profile Blog # |
| Lone druid in mid is very susceptible to ganks though. People seem to get radiance >> AC on bear. Tranquil boots, and maybe vlads on druid himself |
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| Sindriss Denmark. July 26 2012 19:07. Posts 201 | Profile # |
Solo on the easy lane is relatively simple. Control group 1 - You + bear // Control group 2 - Bear (while this may be optional this is pretty much how every pro plays him). You go for last hits/denies with Control group 1 (double the damage) or you use Control group 2 to right click the enemy hero to harass while without using any Control groups you select your hero for last hits. And if you get a root you go back to Control group 1 to attack the rooted enemy.
Quite ineffective way to play him. I and probably most old wc3 players play him with 1 being sylla, 2 being bear and 3 being both. That way you can much more effectively micro them, depending on the situation.
In your example, if you had to flee with main hero, you would drag bear with you and have to restart attack with the bear to slow down opponents from reaching you. |
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| Erasme France. July 26 2012 19:18. Posts 4239 | Profile Blog # |
How is that ineffective if all you do is adding another control group ?
And if you need to flee, simply 1 then back then tp back the bear which will aa the closest hero. |
| | I've been on wodota. What have you been doing with your life ? |
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| Yurie July 26 2012 19:19. Posts 2161 | Profile Blog # |
You can use a few tricks to always have all but one bind correct as sylla when starting a game.
Set all controlled units but hero as 1 (bear, default not on any key, useful to have this bound in case you play chen/chantress/beastmaster...). Hero as 2 (default F1). Then when the game starts you just have to select both and bind to 3. |
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| Crims0nSt4rz Singapore. July 26 2012 20:13. Posts 24 | Profile # |
On July 26 2012 08:21 x6.Chouji wrote:
1. Lone Druid is not a good solo mid because he has almost 0 gank potential in the early game. He cannot use runes very effectively, even a summoned bear with haste or dd will have troubles if they don't get a lucky proc. Hence bottle is pretty much useless on him (and he never needs mana). He CAN be a decent solo in that he can farm/not die/ sometimes even get a kill, but in the current metagame mid really needs the power to roam and get kills or help other lanes, both of which bear is weak at.
I disagree with Chouji that Sylla is a bad solo mid. He is a viable solo mid as he is one of the best 1v1-ers with his insane harass potential and the ability to easily stand up against dual lane mids (which have been rather popular) and is best used to neutralise the opponent's mid by dominating the lane. Although he does not utilise runes well, the fact that Sylla is basically a 2-unit hero gives him the ability to get most of the runes (send bear to top and hero to bot, with Sylla's high ms races should be of no problem) Sylla is also able to easily chase and harass even in tower range, as with proper micro, tower would only target the bear, enabling you to dive endlessly. However, Sylla is easily harassed down and can't really gank. |
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| Dacendoran United States. July 26 2012 23:19. Posts 765 | Profile Blog # |
| Where would I go to find a replay of a good syllabear to learn from? |
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| 5-s United States. July 26 2012 23:53. Posts 884 | Profile # |
On July 26 2012 20:13 Crims0nSt4rz wrote:
Show nested quote +On July 26 2012 08:21 x6.Chouji wrote:
1. Lone Druid is not a good solo mid because he has almost 0 gank potential in the early game. He cannot use runes very effectively, even a summoned bear with haste or dd will have troubles if they don't get a lucky proc. Hence bottle is pretty much useless on him (and he never needs mana). He CAN be a decent solo in that he can farm/not die/ sometimes even get a kill, but in the current metagame mid really needs the power to roam and get kills or help other lanes, both of which bear is weak at.
I disagree with Chouji that Sylla is a bad solo mid. He is a viable solo mid as he is one of the best 1v1-ers with his insane harass potential and the ability to easily stand up against dual lane mids (which have been rather popular) and is best used to neutralise the opponent's mid by dominating the lane. Although he does not utilise runes well, the fact that Sylla is basically a 2-unit hero gives him the ability to get most of the runes (send bear to top and hero to bot, with Sylla's high ms races should be of no problem) Sylla is also able to easily chase and harass even in tower range, as with proper micro, tower would only target the bear, enabling you to dive endlessly. However, Sylla is easily harassed down and can't really gank.
Yea I don't think mid needs to gank EVERY game at all, it all depends on the lineup. He basically guarantees winning the rune war and completely stomps certain mids with bear+orb harass. There's plenty of lineups where people gank for mid instead of the other way around nowadays. Sure he's often better in a sidelane, but not always. |
| | I liked Dota before it was Mainstream. |
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| Kazeyonoma United States. July 27 2012 05:30. Posts 2280 | Profile Blog # |
On July 26 2012 19:07 Sindriss wrote:
Show nested quote +Solo on the easy lane is relatively simple. Control group 1 - You + bear // Control group 2 - Bear (while this may be optional this is pretty much how every pro plays him). You go for last hits/denies with Control group 1 (double the damage) or you use Control group 2 to right click the enemy hero to harass while without using any Control groups you select your hero for last hits. And if you get a root you go back to Control group 1 to attack the rooted enemy.
Quite ineffective way to play him. I and probably most old wc3 players play him with 1 being sylla, 2 being bear and 3 being both. That way you can much more effectively micro them, depending on the situation. In your example, if you had to flee with main hero, you would drag bear with you and have to restart attack with the bear to slow down opponents from reaching you.
That's how i hotkey it too, indeed an old wc3 habit i think.
Basically what others have said here are true about how to properly lane with him, i can't really ad much more other than avoid being in a lane with CM, her stun wrecks the bear.
If you're on right now you can try catching team Link play him right now live:
http://www.teamliquid.net/video/streams/LINKDotA
edit: nm, the streamer is playing tinker, and the sylla is jungling -_-'Last edit: 2012-07-27 05:35:58 |
| | I now have autographs of both BoxeR and NaDa. I can die happy. Lim Yo Hwan and Lee Yun Yeol FIGHTING forever! | |
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| kellymilkies Singapore. July 27 2012 05:51. Posts 1239 | Profile Blog # |
Hi there!
1. Most pro teams put their Sylla bear solo-ing long lane. Solo mid is not so good anymore because the big bear (hero) dies easy to ganks. Sure its good against paper heroes like... mb sf or tinker those kind. (against certain heroes its definitely really good. if you want i can get a list for you?)
I still see some pro players who pub and buys double midas though.. 1 on your hero big bear and your small bear (pet)
2. Smallbear -> Poison orb -> Threads -> Midas -> radiance
Big bear -> threads till you get your radiance.......... some misers dont even get threads and only boots...
(I ll reply this again when I can help you ask.)
3. Your small bear should be in front and hitting, and your hero bear should already have range. Its generally hard to deny getting pushed especially if you are playing 1v2 or 1v3. So what you do is if you get pushed, even better for you... cause lane gets closer to your base. Make sure you try to last hit... like every other hero. If you wanna push ofc just use ur small bear for auto attack and micro last hits with your big bear..
Occasionally , especially if you are playing meelee heroes or non tanky heroes, you can set your small bear on enemy hero.. and use your hero bear to farm. Its really annoying especially with poison orb to lane against a sylla bear ~_~
4. I'll get you some.
PS: As for binding, most pros i see now use 1 for both the bears and they use tab to select, and 2 for just the small bear. F1 gets you your hero so you dont really need to bind your hero bear (if you use default, F1 is selecting your hero aka big bear.)
Then again, for binding just like sc2, it's whatever you are used to.Last edit: 2012-07-27 06:28:59 |
| | Be the change you wish to see in the world ^-^V // |
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| danl9rm United States. July 27 2012 06:18. Posts 2468 | Profile Blog # |
| Dual Midas... hmm.... I never even thought to do that. I'm trying it tonight, lol |
| | "Science has so well established that the preborn baby in the womb is a living human being that most pro-choice activists have conceded the point. ..since the abortion proponents have lost the science argument, they are now advocating an existential one." |
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lagmaster  United States. July 27 2012 07:22. Posts 285 | Profile Blog # |
Dual midas means that the rest of your team must play without you for 25 minutes. If you get your first midas by 7 minutes, you can get your 2nd midas around 11-12 minutes and then you'll still get your boots + radiance by about 25 minutes. The problem is that your team will have to play a man down for a decent chunk of time and your useful early game potential will be wasted. Heroes like naix and lycan (who ignore the rest of the team for the early game) are great at the lategame, sylla isn't as powerful late game.
Instead of going midas (or double midas), it's better to try and push some towers early with sylla. Even before level 7, sylla is capable of pushing down some towers with an ally if the enemy doesn't react quickly enough. Sylla and chen (or enchant) can start pushing down towers at level 1 against a solo.
Solo mid sylla is great for farm, but yes he is very susceptible to ganks. Getting smoke ganked mid once or twice early game can really throw him off his game so in addition to wards you'll need some good map awareness to watch for those smokes.
At level 5 (as solo mid) ganking the opposing mid is not as "lucky" as people make it out to be. A 20% chance to entangle (and an understanding of how entangle procs) means that you have a decent shot of ganking the hero. An entangle is almost a guaranteed gank. If your bear has had 3 attacks on creep without an entangle attack the enemy hero. The entangle chance is higher. Just make sure you move and attack to better position your hero while the enemy's entangled. Since your ms is probably higher (especially with poison orb) it's doubtful that the enemy will be able to run away. If the enemy is someone like QOP, then she'll have so little hp that you'll probably kill her before she can blink away.
My minimap awareness needs a lot of work, but I'm able to out cs most heroes mid with sylla. I experience problems when pudge manages to land hooks on me or i don't anticipate the smokes. For soloing the easy lane vs 2 heroes, I experience problems when the 2 heroes are nuke happy.
As much as I'd like to believe sylla to be an awesome late gamer (he has 12 item slots!!!!), in my experience he gets outcarried by most of the other carries. His pet is killed too easily in the late game and he needs his pet to be really useful. Play him in lane. Use him to push down towers early and often. Don't get a double midas in serious games. |
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| Yurie July 27 2012 09:37. Posts 2161 | Profile Blog # |
On July 27 2012 07:22 lagmaster wrote:
At level 5 (as solo mid) ganking the opposing mid is not as "lucky" as people make it out to be. A 20% chance to entangle (and an understanding of how entangle procs) means that you have a decent shot of ganking the hero. An entangle is almost a guaranteed gank. If your bear has had 3 attacks on creep without an entangle attack the enemy hero. The entangle chance is higher. Just make sure you move and attack to better position your hero while the enemy's entangled. Since your ms is probably higher (especially with poison orb) it's doubtful that the enemy will be able to run away. If the enemy is someone like QOP, then she'll have so little hp that you'll probably kill her before she can blink away.
Minor note. Above is correct in DotA, it is not correct in Dota 2 where it is true random and not psuedo. |
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| gaymon Germany. July 27 2012 09:56. Posts 389 | Profile # |
+ Show Spoiler +
On July 27 2012 07:22 lagmaster wrote:
Dual midas means that the rest of your team must play without you for 25 minutes. If you get your first midas by 7 minutes, you can get your 2nd midas around 11-12 minutes and then you'll still get your boots + radiance by about 25 minutes. The problem is that your team will have to play a man down for a decent chunk of time and your useful early game potential will be wasted. Heroes like naix and lycan (who ignore the rest of the team for the early game) are great at the lategame, sylla isn't as powerful late game.
Instead of going midas (or double midas), it's better to try and push some towers early with sylla. Even before level 7, sylla is capable of pushing down some towers with an ally if the enemy doesn't react quickly enough. Sylla and chen (or enchant) can start pushing down towers at level 1 against a solo.
Solo mid sylla is great for farm, but yes he is very susceptible to ganks. Getting smoke ganked mid once or twice early game can really throw him off his game so in addition to wards you'll need some good map awareness to watch for those smokes.
At level 5 (as solo mid) ganking the opposing mid is not as "lucky" as people make it out to be. A 20% chance to entangle (and an understanding of how entangle procs) means that you have a decent shot of ganking the hero. An entangle is almost a guaranteed gank. If your bear has had 3 attacks on creep without an entangle attack the enemy hero. The entangle chance is higher. Just make sure you move and attack to better position your hero while the enemy's entangled. Since your ms is probably higher (especially with poison orb) it's doubtful that the enemy will be able to run away. If the enemy is someone like QOP, then she'll have so little hp that you'll probably kill her before she can blink away.
My minimap awareness needs a lot of work, but I'm able to out cs most heroes mid with sylla. I experience problems when pudge manages to land hooks on me or i don't anticipate the smokes. For soloing the easy lane vs 2 heroes, I experience problems when the 2 heroes are nuke happy.
As much as I'd like to believe sylla to be an awesome late gamer (he has 12 item slots!!!!), in my experience he gets outcarried by most of the other carries. His pet is killed too easily in the late game and he needs his pet to be really useful. Play him in lane. Use him to push down towers early and often. Don't get a double midas in serious games.
While going double Midas is not the standard and going for early towers is favorable in most cases it is possible and grants you insane farm. If your team is able to do reasonably well and protect you in the jungle for 18 minutes double midas pt radiance is possible ( really hard to pull off but if you manage to get those items you've won the game pretty much 100%).
Edit: Sylla is a really strong Solomid hero and can dominate many other choises while still beeing able to get kills 1 v 2 with lucky entangle proccs on the support when hitting 5.Last edit: 2012-07-27 09:57:44 |
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| Balinor New Zealand. July 27 2012 10:44. Posts 34 | Profile # |
Thanks very much for your replies! Some great information shared here
I especially like the look of this build (except I like phase on the bear), thanks Kelly!
On July 27 2012 05:51 kellymilkies wrote:
2. Smallbear -> Poison orb -> Threads -> Midas -> radiance
Big bear -> threads
Getting a fast orb on the bear to harass sounds like a great way to do harassment in lane! Will definitely experiment with that. Using the bear to agro waves through the jungle down to your tower for safe consumption sounds pretty awesome too :D.
All i'm missing now are some good replays to analyze from experienced Lone Druid players
On July 26 2012 23:19 Dacendoran wrote:
Where would I go to find a replay of a good syllabear to learn from?
Last edit: 2012-07-27 10:47:26 |
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| Toadily United States. July 27 2012 14:59. Posts 792 | Profile Blog # |
On July 27 2012 07:22 lagmaster wrote:Heroes like naix and lycan (who ignore the rest of the team for the early game) are great at the lategame, sylla isn't as powerful late game..
Huh? Sylla is a better late game than N'aix, and a WAAAAAY better late game than lycan. |
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