I go for a ~10 minute timing bomber style. In this particular game I actually push a little earlier than I normally would because I have found that ~90% of protoss have at least one, often two colossus by the time my push hits which I feel makes it very difficult to do any real damage with pure bio. This is the first point I would like advice on:
How do I do anything useful with my timing push if protoss already has colossus?
I was a little slower adding production than I should have been adding production during my attack, but as far as I can tell this wasn't devastating. I soon had enough to go for another attack. I feel like this was generally fairly effective, I killed his third, a few probes, and got some of his army. Perhaps I could have stutter stepped a bit more to make my army even more effective. This brings me to my next question:
When fighting zealot + HT, how do I stutter step away from the zealots without clumping up all my units for storms?
Generally what I try to do is move small groups of units back and also away from one another, but this leaves plenty of time for zealots to stand and attack, so I'm not sure if this is the best way of doing it. Some more time goes by as we build our armies back up. He goes zealot+HT+archon and I go ghost+marine with a few marauders. He pushes into me once and barely hold and then he pushes again and I get crushed. There are a few things I am unsure of when engaging this type of army.
First, I often blanket EMP protoss armies but they always seem to have several storms anyway. How can I make sure I don't miss templar (what I actually mean is, how can I make sure I have hit them? how many energy bars should I see if there is a storm available?) Also, how do I balance time spent EMP'ing with time spent spreading out my bio to mitigate storm damage? In the last battle a single storm took at half of my army as I was trying to cast EMP.
I also performed somewhat poorly with my macro, missing a production cycle here and there and getting upgrades late. But at least I know what I'm doing wrong there.
I also open with Bomber's TvP build almost exclusively in TvP. Collosi is something you basically need to scout for and add vikings in time I feel. I tend to scan the natural of my opponent at aroung 7-8 minutes and them mining double gas from their nat is usually a pretty big giveaway.
"When fighting zealot + HT, how do I stutter step away from the zealots without clumping up all my units for storms?"
I think the best way to deal with this is to pre-split before engaging. In a maxed vs. maxed army it's kind of like microing against banelings, you split and move away that units that are being targeted (By splash damage). Having to deal with templar as well is a huge pain in the ass. In general, a good protoss will not clump up all his HT's and have several only moving in after the battle has started. If you ever watch Grubby's stream you'll see he puts templar basically all over the map before engagements. The only realy way to deal with them seems to bt hunting them down with (cloacked) ghosts.
Last edit: 2012-07-29 02:29:19
I pwn n00bs
ZeNd0kUn United States. July 26 2012 18:31. Posts 320
I watched the replay. I think you could have done some damage in the early stages of the game. The Protoss went Nexus first which is a pretty greedy build. A Marine SCV all in could have ended the game because literally the Protoss' defence was the probe on the Xel Naga Tower and a late cannon infront of his Natural. Your mass marines could have controlled towers, forced more cannons or something because the Protoss was adding so much more infrastructure before getting the first stalker out.
You did not scan before your assault on the third which you arrived just before the 10 minute mark. Any Protoss rushing Collossi on 2 base will be a bit gimped on gateway units. And you did get his third but that's when you start your viking production and that's when the Protoss economy kicks in with more gateways added and all.
What I'd like to have seen is more drop play. Those are the most annoying things when playing as a Protoss. Sniping probes or tech structures and in some cases a Nexus is always a win.
You need to get Bio upgrades faster because naturally the Protoss with double forge and Chronoboost gets their upgrades pretty darn fast.
The rest of the game comes down to army engagement and ghost vs hightemplar. Once the Terran knows how to stutterstep and emp/snipe well with those ghosts ... the average Protoss who A moves with chargelots and spams T to storm will have troubles against such a Terran. As to how to execute them goes beyond forum and text help ... get a Protoss practice partner and enter unit tester and play army engagement all day.
I read the Purge Thread!
ineversmile United States. July 26 2012 22:11. Posts 571
You should have seen the Nexus first-->Pylon-->18 gateway and responded to the information immediately. It doesn't actually have to be at your third, but triple orbital should be the response to that economical of an opening. If you don't see a second pylon yet, it changes things because it means he cuts some probes and gets his gate faster, but with the second pylon it indicates he want to keep probing up. You should either have gone across the map relatively soon to punish him, or you should have built another command center ASAP. That means cutting marine production and pulling guys off of gas until you get that third CC started, because otherwise you will behind. But playing standard against greedy is a great way to put yourself two steps behind from the opening of a game.
I don't want to talk much about your macro issues--they were minor, but add up. You should probably double-queue one of your CCs at a time and one Rax, so you don't miss 2-3 second gaps between production. Setting up a lot of units at a time from one building is wrong, but having a couple extra is a good thing so you don't miss time on your production. Other than that, you looked like you understood how to execute the standard Terran opening, so it looked fine.
When you moved out, you should have done it about 20 seconds earlier. If you're afraid of leaving your base without stim, send two marines out in front to poke around by your third and down the ramp. Any time you could get trapped by forcefields, send a single scout ahead to check. Then start walking out there before your stim finishes, so by the time you're almost to his base your stim is done. If you're sending a forward scout ahead each time, it's safe because you can always pull back from mid-map traps.
When you saw his front door, you saw that he had some units and 3 cannons without an exposed pylon (and potentially a pylon on the high ground, since it's a pretty obvious spot to put one there). You should have just turned around at that point--don't bother fighting into cannons when you're going to have 2 dropships with your army in 30 seconds. He dumped 450 minerals into static defense. What does that mean? Well, it's 4.5 zealots he isn't using, or 3 Gateways he doesn't have for an all-in, and it's a pretty big indication that he's teching and wants defense while he's weak. When someone turtles up, you should try to avoid fighting into fortifications...don't even stim; just wait for your transports to show up and see if you can get something done where he doesn't have cannons. He had one colossus without range in his main; if you flew around there with 2 dropships you could havewrecked him.
It also would help if you brought your factory with you. It's not doing anything, so send it over to scout. Where is his army? You need to know where it is at all times. Where is he strong and defended? Where is he weak? What kind of stuff does he have? What does he plan to do next? Get over there and scout him. What's the worst thing that happens? He has enough defense and stays on 2 base, and you go up to 3 bases and 2 starports for mass vikings? Sounds like a pretty good deal to me.
Pressure. Pressure. Pressure. Force out apms, gas for sentries, minerals for cannons, chrono for army.
Around the 3 min mark, you scouted nexus first. You didn't throw down a bunker near the natural after your rax was complete. That alone puts a ton of pressure without being all-in.
After which, you have your marines sitting at your natural doing nothing. I know that stalkers can pick them off, but only with good control. All you have to do is juke and/or use high-ground to pick off a small stalker count that comes natural as a result of early nexus. Personally, I love adding in marauder early for that mapcontrol and ability to pressure.
I saw your stutter-step against the Zealot/HT comp. You need to retreat outside of storm range, and then stutter.
Also, I would add a raven for clearing out observers in the map - and the techlab'ed starport will allow for easier transition to BCs, which are pretty good when supported by marauders/ghosts to pick off stalkers and ghosts to emp either the BCs or the templars. I prefer to emp the BCs before battle, until i get yamato, after which, the energy is an asset for picking off high-value targets like archons or collosi or immortals, which will keep your bio safe to support your BCs. A bit of synergy.
Whoa, you were way behind on upgrades. 1/0/2 for toss while you were at 1/1. Toss was about to finish 2/0/3 when you began 2/2.
Another very important thing : Set up flanks! When you have that map-control, you can section off a decentchunk of your army, hotkey it, and have your main army camp a xel-naga tower. Drop a scan, or keep your raven on your flanking army, to make sure it isn't revealed.
When you see the enemy move in, flank flank flank. With their tanky tanky zealots engaged with your main army, the flank will murder the squishy and expensive protoss units like HTs and Collosi. Sentries too, unless its a really high sentry count - able to forcefield off a huge open area. But that high sentry count means less gas for HTs, Collosi, Archons, what not.
On July 26 2012 22:11 ineversmile wrote: You should have seen the Nexus first-->Pylon-->18 gateway and responded to the information immediately. It doesn't actually have to be at your third, but triple orbital should be the response to that economical of an opening. If you don't see a second pylon yet, it changes things because it means he cuts some probes and gets his gate faster, but with the second pylon it indicates he want to keep probing up. You should either have gone across the map relatively soon to punish him, or you should have built another command center ASAP. That means cutting marine production and pulling guys off of gas until you get that third CC started, because otherwise you will behind. But playing standard against greedy is a great way to put yourself two steps behind from the opening of a game.
Yeah I guess you're right. I am generally uncomfortable changing up my build on the fly because I suck and usually when I things don't go as they usually do my macro suffers as a result. If it really is such a big deal though I guess I should practice doing a 3CC opening a bit. The rest of your post was quite helpful too, thanks.
One more question I have is that if I do see three cannons at his front and decide to wait for my medivacs to come out, he should well and truly have a colossus out by then, and a decent force to support. If I were to drop, I would worry that he might have an overwhelming force, and I would be unable to retreat without possible having my medivacs sniped. This is generally why I don't drop against protoss in my midgame pressure. I just find that I lose my drops too cheaply too often. Is this a illegitimate concern or is it just a matter of improving control?
Thanks to everyone else also for their helpful posts. I really appreciate it.