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| grolyat Scotland. July 27 2012 01:34. Posts 39 | Profile # |
I recently played this TvT game. I ended up winning on this occasion but have been losing a LOT of games recently. I was wondering if anyone could offer any advice based on what you see here:
http://drop.sc/227965
I also practised a little stutter-step micro when attacking the main (around 10:00 mins) and one of the expansions (maybe around 13:00 mins). Can anyone tell me if I am doing this correctly/offer advice?
I also recognise this was an "unconventional" game by my opponent, to say the least. (I am the red T)
Also, I didn't say "gl hf" and there is a moment where I say "you have lost" without realising that there were 2 expansions. I wasn't trying to be BM, I thought I had said gl hf and at that time I did genuinely believe he had no other base due to his unusual expansions.
(as a bit of background, I am a bronze league player and have been playing for a little over a month now. Looking to improve.)
Thanks!
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| DaPhinoXX United States. July 27 2012 01:39. Posts 6 | Profile # |
| Saying "you have lost" will always be pretty BM, I don't see how anyone would take it otherwise. |
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| grolyat Scotland. July 27 2012 02:03. Posts 39 | Profile # |
It made perfect sense in context, did you watch the replay?
I had destroyed each an every one of the opponents unit production buildings and supply blocked them (and they were not reproducing them at one of their expansions). I was always under the impression that it is BM to stay in a game that you know you have absolutely 0% chance of winning, so I was just trying to call my opponent out for being BM (though it came across as me being BM).
It is hard to explain but if you watch the replay, it makes perfect sense for me to have said that (even if I could have said it in a more polite way, but I was keeping it short so I could concentrate on the game) |
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| BoatsandJoes United States. July 27 2012 12:04. Posts 3 | Profile # |
Your impression isn't totally wrong, but a player telling another player to leave the game is considered much worse manner than a player choosing to play out a losing game. Never tell an opponent that he's lost. If you're right and he already knows it he'll ignore you (and to end the game, you'll have to destroy his buildings), if you're right and he doesn't know it yet you'll still have to prove it to him (by destroying his buildings), and if you're wrong, you just look like a doofus (and you still have to try to destroy his buildings anyway). Basically, just skip the typing step completely and destroy his buildings that much faster: trust me, it's better that way. And try to remember to say gl hf in the future, too.
That's mostly what I wanted to say (and it looks like DaPhinoXX created an account just to say it), but I have some playing advice for you too. I am a Terran who hasn't had much time to play, but I've been rocketing through Silver League in the last month and I'm starting to beat people in Gold. About the stutter step micro: you don't need to use it. Beyond that, you actually shouldn't: it will actually hurt your play. Your APM is pretty close to mine and I can tell you that while stutter stepping does grant a small advantage in close fights (if done properly), it comes at the expense of not doing other things that will grant you a much larger advantage (more on that in a bit). It can be fun to stutter step, but as you say you are looking to improve it's best to forget that the technique exists for now: just use a-move. Rarely do you even need to watch the battle: there isn't too much to control (be honest: are you actually controlling your army or are you just staring at it?) and your time is better spent making sure things are building in your base.
Your push is actually quite powerful and fast and you seem to have a decent grasp of the game so I'm going to direct you to this video. Honestly, Filter's voice almost puts me to sleep whenever I listen to it, but his series really does teach you everything you need to know to get better at the game. This will not teach you good strategy (to the contrary, the strategy is terrible), but it will teach you what you need to know to execute a strategy well, once you find one you like. If you can meet the benchmarks that Filter sets (they sound hard but if you focus only on them they really aren't), you might almost feel like you're cheating because you'll have such a huge advantage over all of your opponents in Bronze and even much of Silver. Past that it won't carry your game for you, but unlike if you proxy 2-raxed your way up the ladder you'll be able to build on these skills to get even better with almost no ceiling, which is the whole point.
Finally (and this is what I have trouble with), try not to worry about winning or losing: just think about how you can get even better. Usually this is by playing lots of games, then analyzing the replays (by yourself or with others) to identify things to improve, then playing lots more games, and repeat. Good luck on the ladder!
EDIT - The specific reason I think this series could benefit you is that although your push is quite good, if it doesn't win the game or nearly win the game you don't have enough infrastructure or income to become a threat again. This is mostly due to the fact that around 5 minutes you stop building workers, you also never expand to your natural and you never build any additional structures past your 2rax, one factory, and one starport (not to mention you aren't quite producing out of all of those constantly either). If you can improve your foundation, not only will your push hit harder, but you'll also be able to keep an edge if it doesn't work out.Last edit: 2012-07-27 12:12:28 |
| | If being wrong is wrong, then I don't want to be wrong. |
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| frogmelter United States. July 27 2012 12:18. Posts 910 | Profile Blog # |
On July 27 2012 12:04 BoatsandJoes wrote: Your impression isn't totally wrong, but a player telling another player to leave the game is considered much worse manner than a player choosing to play out a losing game. Never tell an opponent that he's lost. If you're right and he already knows it he'll ignore you (and to end the game, you'll have to destroy his buildings), if you're right and he doesn't know it yet you'll still have to prove it to him (by destroying his buildings), and if you're wrong, you just look like a doofus (and you still have to try to destroy his buildings anyway). Basically, just skip the typing step completely and destroy his buildings that much faster: trust me, it's better that way. And try to remember to say gl hf in the future, too.
Seconded. Never, never, never tell someone that they lost. |
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| lazyitachi July 27 2012 13:46. Posts 512 | Profile Blog # |
Watch Filter SC videos. Best improvement tool. Builds fundamentals instead of requiring you to be GSL caliber wannabe. Once your macro is down pat, you can do ridiculous things and still win.
When winning, send a few scvs around the maps to each corners currently fogged.. patrol them across 2/3 mineral lines of each corner. If no expansion, proceed with your "You have lost" statement.
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| grolyat Scotland. July 28 2012 22:34. Posts 39 | Profile # |
Thanks for the advice BoatsandJoes and lazyitachi, even if you didn't agree with the way in which I went about winning.
I will comment on what I said one more time. While I can see how telling someone they is viewed as BM, in the context of the game I still view it as stating a fact. Had I said it in a position where my opponent still had a 1% chance of winning then I would agree with you all and say I was being BM/trash talking but I would have to have attacked my own units/buildings for the opponent to win this. If a GSL player won the final and in the post match interview mentioned the fact that his opponent lost, it wouldn't be BM it would be stating a fact. While the game hadn't ended when I said it, it was over and so I don't see a distinction between these two scenarios.
I am usually a very well mannered player, even in the face of trash talking but in this case the fact that I had not won in a few games (and so was frustrated), the fact that I had been playing for a while and the fact that I was tired all lead to me just wanting to finish the game so that I could move on. When the other player refused to allow me to do this, I felt justified in telling him that the game was over. |
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| Clairval France. July 29 2012 02:48. Posts 32 | Profile # |
On July 27 2012 12:18 frogmelter wrote: Show nested quote +On July 27 2012 12:04 BoatsandJoes wrote: Your impression isn't totally wrong, but a player telling another player to leave the game is considered much worse manner than a player choosing to play out a losing game. Never tell an opponent that he's lost. If you're right and he already knows it he'll ignore you (and to end the game, you'll have to destroy his buildings), if you're right and he doesn't know it yet you'll still have to prove it to him (by destroying his buildings), and if you're wrong, you just look like a doofus (and you still have to try to destroy his buildings anyway). Basically, just skip the typing step completely and destroy his buildings that much faster: trust me, it's better that way. And try to remember to say gl hf in the future, too.
Seconded. Never, never, never tell someone that they lost.
Thirded. Telling someone he has lost is capital Bad Manner. "I win." is the same as "You have lost.", as gg-ing while you're ahead, or as "Can't you see it's over ? Just leave, you noob." : making you a jerk in the eyes of your opponent. Wether your statement is founded or not has nothing to do with the fact that you're not respecting your opponent's will to try anyway.
The reason why a person might say in the interview than his opponent lost is because the game is now over. Who decided the game was over ? His opponent when he left. By telling that you win during the game, you're trying to deny your opponent's right to decide when it's really over, and that is BM.Last edit: 2012-07-29 03:00:49 |
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| Emporium England. July 29 2012 02:59. Posts 134 | Profile # |
On July 27 2012 12:04 BoatsandJoes wrote:Your impression isn't totally wrong, but a player telling another player to leave the game is considered much worse manner than a player choosing to play out a losing game. Never tell an opponent that he's lost. If you're right and he already knows it he'll ignore you (and to end the game, you'll have to destroy his buildings), if you're right and he doesn't know it yet you'll still have to prove it to him (by destroying his buildings), and if you're wrong, you just look like a doofus (and you still have to try to destroy his buildings anyway). Basically, just skip the typing step completely and destroy his buildings that much faster: trust me, it's better that way. And try to remember to say gl hf in the future, too. That's mostly what I wanted to say (and it looks like DaPhinoXX created an account just to say it), but I have some playing advice for you too. I am a Terran who hasn't had much time to play, but I've been rocketing through Silver League in the last month and I'm starting to beat people in Gold. About the stutter step micro: you don't need to use it. Beyond that, you actually shouldn't: it will actually hurt your play. Your APM is pretty close to mine and I can tell you that while stutter stepping does grant a small advantage in close fights (if done properly), it comes at the expense of not doing other things that will grant you a much larger advantage (more on that in a bit). It can be fun to stutter step, but as you say you are looking to improve it's best to forget that the technique exists for now: just use a-move. Rarely do you even need to watch the battle: there isn't too much to control (be honest: are you actually controlling your army or are you just staring at it?) and your time is better spent making sure things are building in your base. Your push is actually quite powerful and fast and you seem to have a decent grasp of the game so I'm going to direct you to this video. Honestly, Filter's voice almost puts me to sleep whenever I listen to it, but his series really does teach you everything you need to know to get better at the game. This will not teach you good strategy (to the contrary, the strategy is terrible), but it will teach you what you need to know to execute a strategy well, once you find one you like. If you can meet the benchmarks that Filter sets (they sound hard but if you focus only on them they really aren't), you might almost feel like you're cheating because you'll have such a huge advantage over all of your opponents in Bronze and even much of Silver. Past that it won't carry your game for you, but unlike if you proxy 2-raxed your way up the ladder you'll be able to build on these skills to get even better with almost no ceiling, which is the whole point. Finally (and this is what I have trouble with), try not to worry about winning or losing: just think about how you can get even better. Usually this is by playing lots of games, then analyzing the replays (by yourself or with others) to identify things to improve, then playing lots more games, and repeat. Good luck on the ladder! EDIT - The specific reason I think this series could benefit you is that although your push is quite good, if it doesn't win the game or nearly win the game you don't have enough infrastructure or income to become a threat again. This is mostly due to the fact that around 5 minutes you stop building workers, you also never expand to your natural and you never build any additional structures past your 2rax, one factory, and one starport (not to mention you aren't quite producing out of all of those constantly either). If you can improve your foundation, not only will your push hit harder, but you'll also be able to keep an edge if it doesn't work out.
This will take you easily into gold, and probably plat. i do this build, and last season was bronze, now im mid gold with a plat mmr.
Apart from that, what he has advised is very good. watching filter starcraft, will save you alot of time, of self reflection and realising the mistakes you made by yourself, as he(filter) concisely explains, where and when the majority of things that you will do wrong, and also shows you very achievable targets, if you practice the build throughly and take in what he is trying to advise.
One extra thing, to elaborate on what he is trying to say:
Macro- producing workers, building production facilites and understanding how much you get in, to what you can buy essentially is very important.
Micro at the level you play is almost irrelevant, if you macro well, without doing anything spectacular, you will find that you will have 50-60 supply leads when you max, and can just go and crush.
SO JUST FOCUS ON MAKING HARVESTERS AND PRODUCTION, if you miss the odd marine, no biggie. if you miss scv's HUGE PROBLEM.
They are the backbone and the heartbeat of everything you do.
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| grolyat Scotland. July 29 2012 03:00. Posts 39 | Profile # |
I suppose we will all just have to agree to disagree and drop it. My opinion on the matter wont change, I have the greatest insight into all circumstances pertaining to my saying what I said and I know that it wasn't bad manner. I know better than everyone that I am a well mannered player and cant stand those that aren't, especially those that trash talk.
I get the feeling that most of those that commented didn't watch the replay either and so you won't know that the game was extended by about 10 minutes which didn't need to be there, which was a waste of everybody's time. It is hardly like I abused my opponent and so I can safely say there was no real-world consequence for them and considering some they extended the game, time was not an issue, but to some people their time is precious and they don't have a lot of it to waste so please don't comment on the matter when you don't know the whole story and haven't even attempted to do so. Thanks.Last edit: 2012-07-29 03:01:05 |
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| Emporium England. July 29 2012 03:06. Posts 134 | Profile # |
On July 28 2012 22:34 grolyat wrote: Thanks for the advice BoatsandJoes and lazyitachi, even if you didn't agree with the way in which I went about winning.
I will comment on what I said one more time. While I can see how telling someone they is viewed as BM, in the context of the game I still view it as stating a fact. Had I said it in a position where my opponent still had a 1% chance of winning then I would agree with you all and say I was being BM/trash talking but I would have to have attacked my own units/buildings for the opponent to win this. If a GSL player won the final and in the post match interview mentioned the fact that his opponent lost, it wouldn't be BM it would be stating a fact. While the game hadn't ended when I said it, it was over and so I don't see a distinction between these two scenarios.
I am usually a very well mannered player, even in the face of trash talking but in this case the fact that I had not won in a few games (and so was frustrated), the fact that I had been playing for a while and the fact that I was tired all lead to me just wanting to finish the game so that I could move on. When the other player refused to allow me to do this, I felt justified in telling him that the game was over.
You're still not understanding, i have given you advice on how to improve your in game mechanics, and now i will give you some advice upon the subject of BM:
Firstly, it isn't your distinction to make, you said what you said, because you didn't know. Defending yourself now is not helping you get support to help improve yourself, just accept that people that have played this game more, and understand the rules of good manner alot more comprehensively that you do, have advised you that you are in fact in correct.
It isn't an opinionated subject matter, there is right and wrong, you were wrong, so just learn from it.
IT doesn't matter how 1 sided you thought the game was, just win the game, and let that be the end of it. Feel vindicated in winning the game, not in rubbing salt into his wound.
IT IS BM, and if you feel differently then to get a better reception from the strat forums, i would advise that you realise and accept this.
Last edit: 2012-07-29 03:06:57 |
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| Clairval France. July 29 2012 03:20. Posts 32 | Profile # |
Oh I have watched the replay. But have you considered that the reason your opponent stayed from 14 to 19 min was because you were telling him the game was over, regardless of his/her opinion on the matter? I know that the last time a guy told me I had lost, I instantly decided that I had to prove him wrong, and stood an 25 additional minutes (before eventually winning). Pride is an effective source of energy.
I do not deny you basically won the game as you killed the siege tank in the main, but I wonder what was the purpose of telling your opponent he had lost, what you'd have expected except infuriating him. Either he was not aggreeing and would be angered by your arrogance, or he already saw that he obviously lost and didn't need your input to do so (possibly angering him cause you're putting salt on the wound). That's why I'd suggest in the future you just refrain from telling him (especially as neither of you had any sort of greeting, glhf, or friendly conversation), because nothing good can come out of it.Last edit: 2012-07-29 03:24:02 |
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| snively United States. July 29 2012 03:58. Posts 1083 | Profile Blog # |
On July 29 2012 02:59 Emporium wrote:
They are the backbone and the heartbeat of everything you do.
sounds like a love song :D |
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| grolyat Scotland. July 29 2012 07:39. Posts 39 | Profile # |
This will take you easily into gold, and probably plat
Hey thanks for the feedback/support of my play in the replay. I have watched the filter videos now and feel a bit better already!
You're still not understanding
As for this, after checking the time signatures I think we were typing at the same time and I was actually replying to the post above yours but no problem on giving your opinion anyway. As for what you said, this is the first time I've ever told someone that they lost so it isn't something I do often, it just happened to be on this replay. I really don't want to go into detail on why, but I was having a really bad day and was playing to take my mind off things. My opponent was wasting my time for no reason and it just made my normal stance of "I don't care because I have won" break down, I'm sure everyone could understand that.
To clarify to everyone; I am not even slightly in the habit of doing this (saying what I said). I am having some real world problems right now and play the game to take my mind off of things and try to have fun. It was a momentary lapse in my stance of not really caring about in game events outside of trying to improve and after this it definitely wont be happening again any time soon. |
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| Emporium England. July 29 2012 22:11. Posts 134 | Profile # |
On July 29 2012 03:58 snively wrote: Show nested quote +On July 29 2012 02:59 Emporium wrote:
They are the backbone and the heartbeat of everything you do.
sounds like a love song :D
I try to please!  |
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