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| SgtSlick Australia. July 30 2012 05:34. Posts 80 | Profile # |
Fix: Balance the time that the ghost remains 'cloaked'
note- the longer it stays cloaked the longer the cool-down.
Easy.
Cool down for cloak is good change (its a buff) - this is coming from a Terran player 
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 Grapefruit Germany. July 30 2012 09:00. Posts 438 | Profile # | |
| | Starcraft 2 is funny, everybody picks the race, which he considers to be the weakest. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ |  |
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| CrtBalorda Slovenia. July 30 2012 09:09. Posts 535 | Profile # |
Well, yours isnt as beautifuly writen as Avilos.
And he also made a video!
...Last edit: 2012-07-30 09:09:35 |
| | 4th August 2012...Never forget..... |
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| nakedsurfer Canada. July 30 2012 09:55. Posts 464 | Profile # |
On July 29 2012 19:05 DemigodcelpH wrote:
Show nested quote +On July 29 2012 10:28 mockturtle wrote:
On July 28 2012 05:21 avilo wrote:
Simply don't change it. It's that simple.
Um, why? Because you're already used to them the way they are? Your entire thread was about "oh no don't nerf Terran they're too weak" or "I do this thing I won't be able to do anymore". At no point did you weigh the concept as if you were choosing them from scratch. Seriously, the game is getting a bunch of new units and will go through a host of balance changes through the entire beta. "Nerfs" and "buffs" don't work additively. Personally I always thought the way Ghosts/Banshees cloak (and in bw as well) was pretty stupid. Managing mana is kind of a nuisance to begin with on regular spellcasters, suddenly with the ghost method you have to weigh considerations like, how long do I need to be cloaked for? what am I going to do once I get there? will i have enough mana to do what I need to do? will I have enough mana to get out? they won't be generating mana during this period either... where will that leave me in 5-10 minutes? Managing a group of multiple ghosts makes this even more of a nightmare... The funny thing is, I would actually consider the change overall a buff. Ignoring the argument that it would be easier to handle the ghosts, they spend 25 energy in one go and then immediately start regenerating energy. This basically means that cloak becomes significantly more mana efficient. I guess from your perspective the only design changes that are acceptable is if everything stays exactly the same except for super simple buffs, like +20 dmg to all avilo units..
Don't not comment on things you don't understand. This is absolutely a Ghost nerf. It's objective fact for several reasons outlined many times, and for you to actually call this is a buff is insulting to the readers of TL who have to put up with reading your post. As Avilo says: read before you write.
Show nested quote +On July 29 2012 10:55 ImNightmare wrote:
Can we just ignore this kid from here on out after this post? He is a blizzard forumer who constantly whines about balance. This game is not even in beta and he is already whining. Goodness..
Why are people writing things like this not getting bans?
The reason mods aren't banning those is because of how Avilo wrote his thread. I imagine the original title was somewhere along the lines of "Blizzard is nerfing terran again". A mod changed the title to ghost design change concern. When he originally wrote the thread, I believe he was more focusing in on the nerf of the change rather than the design of it. He's also known to cry about balance even when terran was owning the GSL. That would be another good enough reason not to ban people for that because just about all his credibility is gone. I do believe the design of it is quite bad but perhaps it won't be as big of a nerf as people think it is. The game will change and they will tweak many things once it comes out just like they did in WOL. Perhaps down the road it could become a buff(I doubt it) but you'll never actually know until then.
I would actually like this change if they did 2 things. If they made it so there no cost on cloak and became purely cooldown. But if they did that, they would need to buff snipe back up. Maybe not to 40 damage but to like 30. That way snipe is better and you'll need to cloak, snipe, and get out fast or you'll lose them all. you'll also have extra snipes since cloak won't take away from your energy. It would still take away from nuking bases but then it's more of a risk to reward then. It won't be cloak 5 ghosts, nuke 5 bases and run away keeping them all.
The cloak change won't actually effect defensive nukes because there is no way the cloak will be that short of a period. Your army will be like 2 seconds away from the ghost.
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| | Root4Root |  |
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| CikaZombi Serbia. July 30 2012 11:15. Posts 494 | Profile # |
On July 29 2012 19:05 DemigodcelpH wrote:
Show nested quote +On July 29 2012 10:28 mockturtle wrote:
On July 28 2012 05:21 avilo wrote:
Simply don't change it. It's that simple.
Um, why? Because you're already used to them the way they are? Your entire thread was about "oh no don't nerf Terran they're too weak" or "I do this thing I won't be able to do anymore". At no point did you weigh the concept as if you were choosing them from scratch. Seriously, the game is getting a bunch of new units and will go through a host of balance changes through the entire beta. "Nerfs" and "buffs" don't work additively. Personally I always thought the way Ghosts/Banshees cloak (and in bw as well) was pretty stupid. Managing mana is kind of a nuisance to begin with on regular spellcasters, suddenly with the ghost method you have to weigh considerations like, how long do I need to be cloaked for? what am I going to do once I get there? will i have enough mana to do what I need to do? will I have enough mana to get out? they won't be generating mana during this period either... where will that leave me in 5-10 minutes? Managing a group of multiple ghosts makes this even more of a nightmare... The funny thing is, I would actually consider the change overall a buff. Ignoring the argument that it would be easier to handle the ghosts, they spend 25 energy in one go and then immediately start regenerating energy. This basically means that cloak becomes significantly more mana efficient. I guess from your perspective the only design changes that are acceptable is if everything stays exactly the same except for super simple buffs, like +20 dmg to all avilo units..
Don't not comment on things you don't understand. This is absolutely a Ghost nerf. It's objective fact for several reasons outlined many times, and for you to actually call this is a buff is insulting to the readers of TL who have to put up with reading your post. As Avilo says: read before you write.
Show nested quote +On July 29 2012 10:55 ImNightmare wrote:
Can we just ignore this kid from here on out after this post? He is a blizzard forumer who constantly whines about balance. This game is not even in beta and he is already whining. Goodness..
Why are people writing things like this not getting bans?
The nerf is only related to Nuking and is actually a buff to combat EMPing and Snipe which is unnecessary in this particular way as it is. I don't agree with this change in it's core, because it limits, rather than expands the usage (or we are all just set in our ways too much and it's actually good) of ghosts, and everything like that is bad for the entire game.
But to call it blindly a nerf, without accounting other spells of the ghost, nor the entirety of changes in the entire EXPANSION (not limited to Terran) is both stupid and biased which is exactly how people view the OP to be.
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| | You can no more evade my wrath, than you could your own shadow. |
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| Euronyme Sweden. July 30 2012 11:20. Posts 3781 | Profile # |
Haha I love how chill closed it because "I don't think you need to open a new thread for two points" while this is open and for some reason very active with only one of those points ^^ |
| | I bet i can maı̸̸̸̸̸̸̸̸̸̸̸̸̸̸̸̸̸̸̨̨̨̨̨̨ke you wipe your screen. |  |
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| NoobCrunch July 30 2012 11:34. Posts 56 | Profile # |
| Meh I think avilo brings up a good point. Although, late game nuke harass can be overwhelming to deal with. I think better players with better map awareness, scouting, and multitasking can handle nuke harass as it currently is. |
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| TyrantPotato Australia. July 30 2012 11:42. Posts 1241 | Profile Blog # |
i have a strange feeling of deja vu.
i wonder what it could be? |
| | Every night i go to sleep, praying Zenex's next victim is shown mercy. |  |
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| Picklebread July 30 2012 12:08. Posts 790 | Profile # |
On July 29 2012 20:17 Champi wrote:
Don't cry about being nerfed in a game that isnt even in beta yet.
there will be new units, new designs, new maps, new strategies, and a lot of balance patches to go with them along the way.
maybe it will end up being weaker than it is now, or maybe it wont. you don't, and CAN'T know. so give it a rest. you already piss off enough people with your sore attitude as it is.
the state of the game could potentially be completely different in Hots than it is now. so stop chaos theory-crafting!
What i do know for a fact is that you cant CLOAK and then GO ACROSS THE MAP and then NUKE A BASE. You have to put ghosts in dropships pretty much and drop them BY their base and then nuke. Im gonna wait for the beta to come out before i start bitching about how that works though theres really no way we can know what will ACTUALLY end up happening because like nothing is figured out yet.
The one thing i will say is that a 22range air unit is BULL.Last edit: 2012-07-30 12:08:31 |
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| [F_]aths Germany. July 30 2012 14:57. Posts 2803 | Profile Blog # |
On July 28 2012 23:59 Rabiator wrote:
Show nested quote +On July 28 2012 23:33 [F_]aths wrote:
We need to see HotS in its entirety to say anything about balance. Local imbalance is intended. Even if the Ghost is nerfed, that doesn't mean Terran got nerfed as a race. The analysis can be "objective" as Avilo claims but still false in its conclusion.
Changing a unit in such a way as to make one of their uses less viable is a bad idea and Avilo gets ridiculed by tons of people here without his arguments being discussed. The question is: How do those intended changes "improve" the game? He explained his side of the story quite well, but the opposition is just saying "oh wait for the beta" and that is ridiculous. Nuke harrass is fun, but rare already and with such a change it will be extinct.
Show nested quote +On July 28 2012 23:33 [F_]aths wrote:
On July 28 2012 05:10 avilo wrote:
Do people want HOTS to be the best game possible? I certainly do, and yes, nothing is in stone, that does not mean it's not worth it to add in feedback/community feedback on things that will make the game better.
If the feedback is "Please make my race better" one gets suspicious.
Did he really ask for an improvement on the Ghosts or that they stay as they are? Complaining about nerfs isnt the same as asking for a buff.
I hate to play semantics but fighting a nerf is comparable to asking for a buff. The OP acts as if Terran gets weaker by an oversight of Blizzard. His argument is ridiculous because the beta gets balanced anyway. It is not that the game would ship with underpowered terran because of an oversight.
Does the OP really think that the alpha test don't see that it is hard to save a ghost once he called down a nuke? Even if somehow this would have been overlooked by the test team, it would be exposed in beta. And only with beta we as a community can begin to talk about overall balance which matters.
Nony gave a very good explanation in this thread. We can assume that the Blizzard developers know what they are doing. The assumption of the OP about an unintended nerf can be assumed wrong. I might add, if the OP would be complaining about a new game mechanic regarding the ghost he doesn't like, it would be okay. (However then we could ask if we need a new thread for anything one doesn't like in HotS.)
Your state "Changing a unit in such a way as to make one of their uses less viable is a bad idea" but you don't explain, why. Maybe in this case it is a good idea because the other uses of the ghosts are (in some way) buffed while only the most powerful use is slightly nerfed, perhaps fixing a balance concern?
I am purely speculating here. Maybe the ghost change increases the viewer's experience because in the end he gets to see snipe more often, and a nuke calldown adds the excitement of the question if the ghost can be saved? I don't think a one-dimensional argument like "to make one of their uses less viable is a bad idea" captures the entirety of the concerns about such changes.Last edit: 2012-07-30 15:30:45 |
| | You don't choose to play zerg. The zerg choose you. |  |
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| fairymonger United States. July 30 2012 15:16. Posts 77 | Profile # |
| It's kinda hard to really speculate on a game that isnt even in beta yet. Alot can happen in a short amount of time and i think we should wait for the beta to start QQing about the 3 respective races.... |
| | Never give up on your dreams. Without dreams man is nothing |  |
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| Thune Austria. July 30 2012 16:55. Posts 128 | Profile # |
ye its totally unfair if i dont have something undectecable which can kill a whole lategame army for 100/100
we seriosuly cant talk about that since the game isnt even in beta yet. |
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| Asturas July 30 2012 17:32. Posts 452 | Profile Blog # |
haha... oh wait, it is no longer funny... oh wait, it wasn't funny since... a long time. I really hate seeing another and another "terrible design change".
Not funny Blizzard!
Indeed, this is terrible design change. I am impressed, I really was naive enough to believe that there is no way T will be nerfed more.
I don't like this nerfes not because of me and my ladder performance. I am in Platinum, I am worst player ever and so on. But I am sick of watching almost excursively Zergs and Protosses in tournaments.
Of course balance whining is not welcomed here, so I'll just shut up  |
| | There are no boundaries, that's the final conclusion. | |
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| karpo Sweden. July 30 2012 17:37. Posts 1998 | Profile # |
On July 30 2012 17:32 Asturas wrote:haha... oh wait, it is no longer funny... oh wait, it wasn't funny since... a long time. I really hate seeing another and another "terrible design change". Not funny Blizzard! Indeed, this is terrible design change. I am impressed, I really was naive enough to believe that there is no way T will be nerfed more. I don't like this nerfes not because of me and my ladder performance. I am in Platinum, I am worst player ever and so on. But I am sick of watching almost excursively Zergs and Protosses in tournaments. Of course balance whining is not welcomed here, so I'll just shut up
Then watch the GSL. Lots of terrans there doing well. We just saw one do awesomely at the GSTL finals.  |
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| Shantastic United States. July 30 2012 17:39. Posts 342 | Profile # |
On July 30 2012 17:32 Asturas wrote:
Indeed, this is terrible design change. I am impressed, I really was naive enough to believe that there is no way T will be nerfed more.
http://starcraft.wikia.com/wiki/Widow_mine
Thought you might enjoy reading that. |
| | "My grandpa could have proxied better, and not only does he have arthritis, but he's also dead." -Sean "Day[9]" Plott | |
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| Asturas July 30 2012 17:42. Posts 452 | Profile Blog # |
On July 30 2012 17:37 karpo wrote:Then watch the GSL. Lots of terrans there doing well. We just saw one do awesomely at the GSTL finals.
GSL/GSTL is a bad example - Korean Terrans are different. Korea is Terran. I am talking about NA/EU tournaments. Small and big, LANs and online events.
But I guess this is thread about something else
I know that, but it is not impressive when You compare it to new units for P and Z.Last edit: 2012-07-30 17:45:04 |
| | There are no boundaries, that's the final conclusion. | |
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| Kare Norway. July 30 2012 17:45. Posts 651 | Profile # |
No point in making any post about balance for a game that has not come out yet, not even the beta it out yet.. come on. Maybe the game will be completely different and you wont even use nukes lategame because other things are superior "counters" to lategame z/p.
Chill out with this until proof is out after everyone has researched all options in HoTS.Last edit: 2012-07-30 17:45:55 |
| | FlaSh for the win! |  |
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| Shantastic United States. July 30 2012 17:53. Posts 342 | Profile # |
On July 30 2012 17:42 Asturas wrote:I know that, but it is not impressive when You compare it to new units for P and Z.
Umm no, it's pretty much the most powerful addition to the game. It's like the Spider Mine on crack. All I'm saying is that there's a whole landscape being reshaped. Be wary of getting hung up over a change that makes nuke harassment slightly harder, when your actual army composition is gonna be so well strengthened.Last edit: 2012-07-30 18:04:17 |
| | "My grandpa could have proxied better, and not only does he have arthritis, but he's also dead." -Sean "Day[9]" Plott | |
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| LavaLava United States. July 30 2012 18:43. Posts 235 | Profile # |
On July 30 2012 17:45 Kare wrote:
No point in making any post about balance for a game that has not come out yet, not even the beta it out yet.. come on. Maybe the game will be completely different and you wont even use nukes lategame because other things are superior "counters" to lategame z/p.
Chill out with this until proof is out after everyone has researched all options in HoTS.
Despite the original title of this thread, it's not really a balance issue.
It's that Nuke play is almost definitely going to see a sharp reduction if this change goes through, and it's hardly used at all anyway. It basically moves the cost of a nuke from 100/100 to 300/200 because the Ghost will almost always die after one nuke, if he even makes it in. The real issue is that you basically only have like 10-15 seconds of cloak to get into position and actually start the nuke timer. And the Ghost walks slowly. People just aren't going to nuke very often at all. If there are better lategame strategies, great, excellent, but then people will Nuke even less and less.
Nukes are cool to use and to watch. They're incredibly entertaining, and rare, and this bad design change would take them almost completely out of the game. |
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| S_SienZ July 30 2012 18:49. Posts 1833 | Profile # |
On July 30 2012 17:53 Shantastic wrote:
Show nested quote +On July 30 2012 17:42 Asturas wrote:I know that, but it is not impressive when You compare it to new units for P and Z.
Umm no, it's pretty much the most powerful addition to the game. It's like the Spider Mine on crack. All I'm saying is that there's a whole landscape being reshaped. Be wary of getting hung up over a change that makes nuke harassment slightly harder, when your actual army composition is gonna be so well strengthened.
Your argument is essentially because Ts are getting a strong unit that warrants one being gimped.
Why this argument is terrible in the context of this change: this change is flawed in design conceptually rather than just an overdone nerf. There were many better ways to do the latter if it was warranted. If nukes were indeed too strong in conjunction with HotS units, a flat nerf to the damage done / AOE or it's cast time might have been better.
This change risks gimping cloak nukes to Medivac energy upgrade status. |
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