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| sgtnoobkilla Australia. July 28 2012 19:45. Posts 11 | Profile # |
Silver T, but just got promoted to Gold on NA (I play on SEA mostly).
TvP is a drop frenzy, and TvT is well....TvT. I don't have trouble with either of those matchups.
Anyways, a lot of my games lately have been TvZ instead. While I still win the games, I'm having a lot of trouble against speedling+bane.
Replay - Antiga Shipyard:
http://drop.sc/229623
He's a plat.
I start off with my usual 1rax FE into 3rax shields while he's doing 15 hatch.
Pushed out with a few marines to check for a third @ around 9 mins and again @ 13 mins (which fails badly). Tried to be sneaky @ 15 mins (and got spotted) but I manage to ninja his lair @ 17 mins.
At this point he switches to ling+bane+muta and while I get a few thors. Screwed up badly @ 19 mins when I wasn't looking at my army and didn't realise until it was too late (talk about bad map awareness rofl). I managed to fend off his push at least. After that point it's gg for him (with a lil' QQ at the end) after I drop him again and push straight into his 3rd. That last split was kinda messy but the thors took the brunt of the damage and kept my bio intact at least.
I know I should work more on my macro since that 3rd was quite late. I didn't spot his tech 'cause I didn't find out until later that he hid them at his nat (sneaky son of ****). I did keep him stuck on 3 base for pretty much the entire game, so I guess that's a plus.
If he got festors that game instead of muta, I'd have probably lost since I didn't have any ghosts.
So what do I do against ling+bane? Should I add tanks? Drop more?
Any suggestions are welcome. |
| | To bring honour and chaos back to this world gone soft... |
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 Esportsfanatic Luxembourg. July 28 2012 19:50. Posts 17 | Profile # |
Blueflamehellions with correct micro kick ass. (If you push and see that he is coming, you scan, siege up and then just hit&run with your hellions. He will have no chance. (The scan is to kill creep, see if there are Burrowed Banelings or if there are Infestors)
User was warned for this post |
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| tjuggx July 28 2012 22:26. Posts 42 | Profile # |
I do think you take your double gas way too early ( i prefer to take them as my 2nd and 3rd rax are like 60-70% complete ), and as a result you are floating gas and have too less marines on your first initial push, then you pretty much blindly add marauders to your mix, why ? you didnt see a baneling nest to use them for tanking blings. You could have had around 16 marines +1 and cshields ready ( you had them both pretty much but the numbers lack ). If you do a opening like that i really suggest that you add the 3 rax first after the cc and then add the gasses cause the result is just the same but you wil just have more marines. sorry im abit drunk and im not probably answering all you question at all but i think this will help your opener at least
edit: and the crueal fact that you lose to blin / ling / muta is pretty much the reason you have your whole !BIO! army clumped up in a very small area. you HAVE to split if you dont have sieges, and if you have sieges you bind them to a different control group and try to target fire a small clump of blings, you can win a game seriously with good tank target firing, and some "small" things that you have 7 rax and 1 starport at 21min. you should have a lot moreLast edit: 2012-07-28 22:35:42 |
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| 13_Doomblaze_37 United States. July 29 2012 09:33. Posts 702 | Profile # |
Oh my god, he was floating 6k/2k the whole game.
The biggest problem I saw is that your build order is very messy and you dont expand enough. At the end you have about 50 scvs at your third base. If you had a 4th and 5th you would have a very strong 3base economy.
If you want to go bio, you need to be very aggressive. You were trying, so that is good. Like tjuggx said, you take you double gas too early. If you go 1 rax expo double gas, you need to add a factory next and go into reactor hellion/banshee or both to be able to use all of the gas. Your initial push was like 6 marines, when it could have been between 16 and 20, and been able to beat back his 20 ish lings. To do that, I recommend getting 2 more rax before your gas, so 1 rax expo, 2x rax, 2x gas. That way you will have many more marines.
You put tech labs on your barracks instead of reactors. You want 1-2 techlabs and the rest reactors. Marauders are good vs roaches, banelings and ultralisks, but if you have too many against ling bling the amount of lings would overrun you, because the zerg can click on marines with his banelings and more or less ignore the marauders. He didn't have nearly enough to do so, but imagine if his 5k mins he was floating were all lings.
Your medivac use is good, especially when you picked up your army at 14:30 to save it, but think about why you want to drop. You lost your entire army because your tried to multi prong drop him when he had mutas. Mutas crush drops, especially since he was not harassing your base at all. If he is harassing your base, you can drop him to get his mutas away, or deal damage since he won't have them at home, but otherwise they are very easy to pick off with mutas, especially when he has that many.
The counter to ling/bling is tanks, especially at your level. With only bio it is extremely difficult and sometimes impossible because it requires perfect splitting and control.
A push around 9 minutes is good, but you need around 16 marines with combat shield instead of 6 (I don't know the game time, i just know the shields). After. do a followup push with stim, shield, medivacs and +1 after they finish to make sure he isnt being too greedy. I take my third either now or at the first poke. If my first poke forces a cancel or does a lot of damage, I can take it then easily. At this point, if he has ling bling muta, you want 2-3 factories making tanks. Zerg is hard to break now, so just get marine medivac tank and upgrades. Feel free to experiment with timings to see what works for you, but generally you want to hit him after a set of upgrades finish, hes morphing a greater spire, or he has a far away base thats easy to kill. Keep expanding, as that is what will keep you in the game if you happen to take a bad engagement.
I would get an OC at your third instead of a PF, especially on antiga since its fairly closed off and defendable if you stay between your nat and your third. Feel free to PF your remaining bases to make sure they stay alive though. |
| | Chill:I showed empathy by making Idra's nineteenth ban on Teamliquid a 2-day |
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| sgtnoobkilla Australia. July 29 2012 17:00. Posts 11 | Profile # |
Cheers for the advice guys.
Basically I'd be taking my gas at around 5-6 min~ish instead? Fair enough.
Thinking back now I'm not exactly sure why I did that drop at 15 mins haha. Guess I made it too obvious and he saw it coming the whole way.
So what about bf hellions? I see some ppl say that they're useless lategame while others say they're good the whole game. If I did get bf hellions, wouldn't that cut into tank production? |
| | To bring honour and chaos back to this world gone soft... |
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| rauk United States. July 29 2012 17:19. Posts 1704 | Profile Blog # |
your opening build order is not a valid build order in tvz. you can't go 3rax +1 in tvz because you don't have any power to deny creep early, deal with speedlings, scout, or be safe from ling bane or roach bane ling allins. you have to make 4-6 hellions, whether it's 12rax 13gas factory or 1rax cc double gas factory. you can prevent creep spread, scout evo chamber count (which will tell you his tech pattern), and be safe from allins.
you also scan too much too early, which is related to not being able to scout, because you made 3rax instead of reactor hellions. ideally you should only scan twice after he has lair, once for his main and nat, to see his tech path if you can't scout it with your hellions. the problem with trying to scout with only marines is that if he has speedlings, you lose the marines, and there's nothing you can do about it. you can fight or run away with hellions.
you're also getting rolled by ling baneling muta in the middle of the map because you don't have any tanks. unless you have MKP or taeja micro, you will get rolled trying to go bio. if you go 1rax CC into double gas reactor hellion you should aim to start tank production off 1 factory after you've started 1/1, have 5 rax with 4 reactors, and started 2 medivacs, or just 2 medivacs if you go reactor hellion CC into 3rax port.
you also make too many techlabs. you shouldn't have more than 1 techlab on your rax until you scout either an ultra cavern after a muta midgame or double evo infestor.
don't bother with igniter hellions unless you're doing mech or some tricky 2 base timing. if you want to play standard just make more tanks.
also he didn't try to take a very greedy third, but if you want to prevent that the best way is to preemptively bunkerrush it with your scouting scv. he can either take a late third, stop droning, or wait until his creep gets to his third to attack it with queens. it's more powerful to do this on a map where the third is farther away, like ohana, antiga, or shakuras.Last edit: 2012-07-29 17:30:01 |
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