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 NeMeSiS3 Canada. July 30 2012 00:58. Posts 2969 | Profile Blog # |
Disclaimer + Show Spoiler +This is a topic on balance, but if you are going to start throwing shit at the walls, refrain from posting. All rebuts and opinions that agree should be well educated and well presented, for this I would ask all of the really low league players (platinum below) to refrain from posting unless you really believe you have insight on the match up
Before we begin, I am not really bringing anything new to the table, there is no big insight or magical suggestion I have to fix the issue nor am I even correct in stating there is an issue, so I apologize in advance if that was what you were expecting.
This has been talked about, but it kind of fell off the radar, so I would like to bring it back up.
Topic
In TvP specifically there is a trend which, in my opinion, is very bad from a design/balance point of view and will always be inherently imbalanced unless it is fixed, that is that Terran has no effective "gas dump" units. By gas dump I mean (similar to the infestor or templar) the Terran pay more or equal in minerals for any unit (excluding the raven, but unless you're Avilo you can see that massing ravens really isn't a "solution" to any problem)
Before the ghost was "buffed" to cost 200 minerals and 100 gas (?) it was used as an effective gas dumping unit, you didn't see the big amounts of gas banked in quality gamers play because they could spend it effectively, but now that it is the price of 2 marines and a medvac it has become much more costly to try and remax your army with ghosts or even incorporate them into your army.
This is a fundamental flaw (and this is why you see Terran's banking 3000 gas late game and simply lose because the Protoss can make 10-20 templars after the big 200/200 engagement.
So the question is, in your opinion, how would you go about fixing the overall gas unit? As of right now massing ravens (which is, compared to infestor/templar, the least effective spell caster) is the only semi-effective way of dropping that gas, what would you do, from Blizzards or your perspective, to fix the issue (if there really is one).
Sidenote
I was 1000pt masters Protoss and this was something I usto do religiously in TvP and won many games I should have lost, now that I have switched races I feel the pain (and am a bit of a hypocrite for commenting on it)
Last edit: 2012-07-30 00:59:30 |
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| Aveng3r United States. July 30 2012 01:07. Posts 610 | Profile Blog # |
this topic has allready received quite a bit of discussion, I cant remember where. A lot of people have been talking about trying to get reapers into the mix to replace marines, a lot of people have been talking about trying to get some battlecruisers into their late game armys... idk. From a design perspective, maybe ghosts should return to costing 150/150 or something like that so that they could be the equivalent of the templar (in terms of costing similar amounts)
EDIT: Idk if you can even really call the gas bank a problem, I think its just the way it is in the matchup atm. In the other matchups you kinda have a lot of gas late game too as terran, I think its just the way terran is.Last edit: 2012-07-30 01:10:15 |
| | Grandmaster starcraft2 bad manner-er and master league NA terran |
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| NeMeSiS3 Canada. July 30 2012 01:09. Posts 2969 | Profile Blog # |
On July 30 2012 01:07 Aveng3r wrote:
this topic has allready received quite a bit of discussion, I cant remember where. A lot of people have been talking about trying to get reapers into the mix to replace marines, a lot of people have been talking about trying to get some battlecruisers into their late game armys... idk. From a design perspective, maybe ghosts should return to costing 150/150 or something like that so that they could be the equivalent of the templar (in terms of costing similar amounts)
Yeah, I know it's been discussed but it kind of fell off the radar... I think a more reasonable cost would be 125/150 but I agree the 200 minerals does need to change. The issue with Battle Cruisers and reapers is that they are extremely weak against the other spell casters, templar feedback/storm Battlecruisers and reapers.. while 5-10 of them are kind of nice in your lategame army if they go heavy chargelot they're to weak imo to withstand the protoss deathball long enough to do effective damage. |
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| Emporium England. July 30 2012 01:09. Posts 133 | Profile # |
Personally, my solution isn't really a solution, but I will generally sack gas scv's first quite a bit earlier in late game TVP because im already fully maxed at the other bases/don't need the gas, as intensely as minerals or army count.
I guess my solution is just to never really get that ridiculous gas bank, as i start filtering them off early, i guess late middle game, early late.
But then i feel im looking at the question differently to you, I think i see it as just me inefficiently using SCV's as opposed to that there isn't a good gas dump late on(which you are right there isn't).
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| graNite Germany. July 30 2012 01:12. Posts 1870 | Profile Blog # |
Oh this happens to me so often, too.
I try to get ravens with upgrades then, i already have ship armor (because i think ship armor is better in tvp for vikings and medivacs) and try to do mass seeker missle.
ghosts should cost 100/150 in my opinion... |
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| Aveng3r United States. July 30 2012 01:15. Posts 610 | Profile Blog # |
On July 30 2012 01:09 NeMeSiS3 wrote:
Show nested quote +On July 30 2012 01:07 Aveng3r wrote:
this topic has allready received quite a bit of discussion, I cant remember where. A lot of people have been talking about trying to get reapers into the mix to replace marines, a lot of people have been talking about trying to get some battlecruisers into their late game armys... idk. From a design perspective, maybe ghosts should return to costing 150/150 or something like that so that they could be the equivalent of the templar (in terms of costing similar amounts)
Yeah, I know it's been discussed but it kind of fell off the radar... I think a more reasonable cost would be 125/150 but I agree the 200 minerals does need to change. The issue with Battle Cruisers and reapers is that they are extremely weak against the other spell casters, templar feedback/storm Battlecruisers and reapers.. while 5-10 of them are kind of nice in your lategame army if they go heavy chargelot they're to weak imo to withstand the protoss deathball long enough to do effective damage.
I agree with you that 200 minerals maybe isnt the right number. It makes it feel pretty hard to get the amount of ghosts that you want (or sometimes need) in your army. I dont know what the "correct" number is, so I wont comment too much on it.. I also agree with your point on the reaper, they do a good amount of damage but they are just too fragile to rely on (plus the build time takes away from building other units in your army)
I think the main argument with the battlecruiser is that you replace any vikings in your comp with them. Using yamoto on collossus/ mothership/ archon helps takes away any damage that feedback can do (even emping your own battlecruisers is something Ive seen a lot of people suggest) They are definitly stronger unit for unit than vikings, but they might not be supply efficient enough.. idk
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| | Grandmaster starcraft2 bad manner-er and master league NA terran |
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| NeMeSiS3 Canada. July 30 2012 01:19. Posts 2969 | Profile Blog # |
On July 30 2012 01:09 Emporium wrote:
Personally, my solution isn't really a solution, but I will generally sack gas scv's first quite a bit earlier in late game TVP because im already fully maxed at the other bases/don't need the gas, as intensely as minerals or army count.
I guess my solution is just to never really get that ridiculous gas bank, as i start filtering them off early, i guess late middle game, early late.
But then i feel im looking at the question differently to you, I think i see it as just me inefficiently using SCV's as opposed to that there isn't a good gas dump late on(which you are right there isn't).
That's not a bad idea, it gets rid of the useless supply, I will take that into consideration ^^ but I agree, that shouldn't be the "solution" ... You shouldn't have to take all your scvs in the mid to lategame when you have 2k gas banked and throw them away to get a bigger army because you'll never spend it... |
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| kyllinghest Norway. July 30 2012 01:21. Posts 1091 | Profile # |
| Feedback, in my opinion the joint most powerfull spell in the game (alongside fungal), destroys the idea of massing any gasheavy unit for terran. I think it would be cool if they could work their way around feedback with the raven. |
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| graNite Germany. July 30 2012 01:26. Posts 1870 | Profile Blog # |
On July 30 2012 01:21 kyllinghest wrote:
Feedback, in my opinion the joint most powerfull spell in the game (alongside fungal), destroys the idea of massing any gasheavy unit for terran. I think it would be cool if they could work their way around feedback with the raven.
So true, the most expensive gas unit which can not be feedbacked is the siegetank, and we all know what happens when you build tanks in tvp  |
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| Asmodeusx July 30 2012 01:27. Posts 282 | Profile Blog # |
Don't mine that much gas and put those SCV's on minerals?
People are so fuckign dumb, blaming everything on balance.
User was warned for this postLast edit: 2012-07-30 01:28:03 |
| | Hermetis Vögelein ist mein Nahm verlahs meine Flügel und werde zahm. |
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| NeMeSiS3 Canada. July 30 2012 01:29. Posts 2969 | Profile Blog # |
On July 30 2012 01:27 Asmodeusx wrote:
Don't mine that much gas and put those SCV's on minerals?
People are so fuckign dumb, blaming everything on balance.
Want to link me your account/rank? I had a disclaimer about well educated opinions, you must have misread it. ^^
User was warned for this post |
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| NeMeSiS3 Canada. July 30 2012 01:30. Posts 2969 | Profile Blog # |
On July 30 2012 01:26 graNite wrote:
Show nested quote +On July 30 2012 01:21 kyllinghest wrote:
Feedback, in my opinion the joint most powerfull spell in the game (alongside fungal), destroys the idea of massing any gasheavy unit for terran. I think it would be cool if they could work their way around feedback with the raven.
So true, the most expensive gas unit which can not be feedbacked is the siegetank, and we all know what happens when you build tanks in tvp
Yeah it would be cool if the raven could put like a shield on units (like the matrix in BW) where that unit was impervious to spells, so like your ghosts can't get feedbacked ^^ that might be a little imbalanced, but the idea is there just tweak it to maybe they can only lose half there health/energy etc... |
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| Emporium England. July 30 2012 01:31. Posts 133 | Profile # |
On July 30 2012 01:19 NeMeSiS3 wrote:
Show nested quote +On July 30 2012 01:09 Emporium wrote:
Personally, my solution isn't really a solution, but I will generally sack gas scv's first quite a bit earlier in late game TVP because im already fully maxed at the other bases/don't need the gas, as intensely as minerals or army count.
I guess my solution is just to never really get that ridiculous gas bank, as i start filtering them off early, i guess late middle game, early late.
But then i feel im looking at the question differently to you, I think i see it as just me inefficiently using SCV's as opposed to that there isn't a good gas dump late on(which you are right there isn't).
That's not a bad idea, it gets rid of the useless supply, I will take that into consideration ^^ but I agree, that shouldn't be the "solution" ... You shouldn't have to take all your scvs in the mid to lategame when you have 2k gas banked and throw them away to get a bigger army because you'll never spend it...
yep, pretty much this.
if i have to resupply 20vikings or 20 meds, then im fucked anyways! |
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| graNite Germany. July 30 2012 01:32. Posts 1870 | Profile Blog # |
On July 30 2012 01:30 NeMeSiS3 wrote:
Show nested quote +On July 30 2012 01:26 graNite wrote:
On July 30 2012 01:21 kyllinghest wrote:
Feedback, in my opinion the joint most powerfull spell in the game (alongside fungal), destroys the idea of massing any gasheavy unit for terran. I think it would be cool if they could work their way around feedback with the raven.
So true, the most expensive gas unit which can not be feedbacked is the siegetank, and we all know what happens when you build tanks in tvp
Yeah it would be cool if the raven could put like a shield on units (like the matrix in BW) where that unit was impervious to spells, so like your ghosts can't get feedbacked ^^ that might be a little imbalanced, but the idea is there just tweak it to maybe they can only lose half there health/energy etc...
no idea is imbalanced if it has no numbers in it. you can always make it an upgrade for the raven, requiring fusion core, 500/500 cost and 5 minute research time, then need 200 energy for the raven.Last edit: 2012-07-30 01:32:18 |
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| Asmodeusx July 30 2012 01:33. Posts 282 | Profile Blog # |
On July 30 2012 01:29 NeMeSiS3 wrote:
Show nested quote +On July 30 2012 01:27 Asmodeusx wrote:
Don't mine that much gas and put those SCV's on minerals?
People are so fuckign dumb, blaming everything on balance.
Want to link me your account/rank? I had a disclaimer about well educated opinions, you must have misread it. ^^
High masters protoss, but it doesn't take a genius to see how dumb is it to mine resources that you have no way of using well. So don't mine them instead of whining on the forum.
User was temp banned for this post.Last edit: 2012-07-30 01:33:55 |
| | Hermetis Vögelein ist mein Nahm verlahs meine Flügel und werde zahm. |
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| NeMeSiS3 Canada. July 30 2012 01:36. Posts 2969 | Profile Blog # |
On July 30 2012 01:33 Asmodeusx wrote:
Show nested quote +On July 30 2012 01:29 NeMeSiS3 wrote:
On July 30 2012 01:27 Asmodeusx wrote:
Don't mine that much gas and put those SCV's on minerals?
People are so fuckign dumb, blaming everything on balance.
Want to link me your account/rank? I had a disclaimer about well educated opinions, you must have misread it. ^^
High masters protoss, but it doesn't take a genius to see how dumb is it to mine resources that you have no way of using well. So don't mine them instead of whining on the forum.
link account? I don't see how your argument can be "Terran should be smarter, they need to stop mining so much gas! we can have 20 optimal miners at our bases, but terran only should have 16... The only counter argument could be that mules should get dropped to increase the effective mining of Terran, but since mules don't offer minerals, they just offer oppourtunity cost, by the lategame those bases are going to be mined out (or nearly) so that mules become less effective anyway.
What you are saying is that Terran gets to have only mineral units while you can use your first army than remax with gas units we can't... And you're also saying Terran get less efficient bases.Last edit: 2012-07-30 01:40:57 |
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| Psychobabas United Kingdom. July 30 2012 01:40. Posts 1957 | Profile Blog # |
On July 30 2012 01:33 Asmodeusx wrote:
Show nested quote +On July 30 2012 01:29 NeMeSiS3 wrote:
On July 30 2012 01:27 Asmodeusx wrote:
Don't mine that much gas and put those SCV's on minerals?
People are so fuckign dumb, blaming everything on balance.
Want to link me your account/rank? I had a disclaimer about well educated opinions, you must have misread it. ^^
High masters protoss, but it doesn't take a genius to see how dumb is it to mine resources that you have no way of using well. So don't mine them instead of whining on the forum.
LOL people like you ruin the community. The guy is posting a legitimate concern. |
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| SoniC_eu Denmark. July 30 2012 01:46. Posts 784 | Profile # | |
| | In order to succeed, your desire for success should be greater than your fear of failure. http://da.twitch.tv/sonic_eu |
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| Asmodeusx July 30 2012 01:48. Posts 282 | Profile Blog # |
On July 30 2012 01:36 NeMeSiS3 wrote:
Show nested quote +On July 30 2012 01:33 Asmodeusx wrote:
On July 30 2012 01:29 NeMeSiS3 wrote:
On July 30 2012 01:27 Asmodeusx wrote:
Don't mine that much gas and put those SCV's on minerals?
People are so fuckign dumb, blaming everything on balance.
Want to link me your account/rank? I had a disclaimer about well educated opinions, you must have misread it. ^^
High masters protoss, but it doesn't take a genius to see how dumb is it to mine resources that you have no way of using well. So don't mine them instead of whining on the forum.
link account? I don't see how your argument can be "Terran should be smarter, they need to stop mining so much gas! we can have 20 optimal miners at our bases, but terran only should have 16... What you are saying is that Terran gets to have only mineral units while you can use your first army than remax with gas units we can't... And you're also saying Terran get less efficient bases.
1. You can use the gas well, but that's a diffirent discussion. It's your choice to go with mineral heavy army.
2. You can have 16 efficient and 24 less efficient workers on minerals, so instead of mining 6 gas on 3 bases you can mine 4 gas and have 6 more probes across those bases on the minerals. You don't want to have more than 70 workers anyway so you're easly below the 24 workers on the minerals per base. It will still give you bigger mineral income and you won't end up with "useless" resources
3. You have fucking MULES, that advantage alone should make up for any problem with mining efficiency you have.
And stop with this fucking "link account" it doesn't matter who's saying that the sky is blue and the grass is green if it's fucking logical, all you do is try to find other ways outside of discussion to "disprove" what i'm saying which is a fucking disgusting demagogic cheapshot attempt of an intelectually incapable moron. |
| | Hermetis Vögelein ist mein Nahm verlahs meine Flügel und werde zahm. |
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| NeMeSiS3 Canada. July 30 2012 01:50. Posts 2969 | Profile Blog # |
On July 30 2012 01:48 Asmodeusx wrote:
Show nested quote +On July 30 2012 01:36 NeMeSiS3 wrote:
On July 30 2012 01:33 Asmodeusx wrote:
On July 30 2012 01:29 NeMeSiS3 wrote:
On July 30 2012 01:27 Asmodeusx wrote:
Don't mine that much gas and put those SCV's on minerals?
People are so fuckign dumb, blaming everything on balance.
Want to link me your account/rank? I had a disclaimer about well educated opinions, you must have misread it. ^^
High masters protoss, but it doesn't take a genius to see how dumb is it to mine resources that you have no way of using well. So don't mine them instead of whining on the forum.
link account? I don't see how your argument can be "Terran should be smarter, they need to stop mining so much gas! we can have 20 optimal miners at our bases, but terran only should have 16... What you are saying is that Terran gets to have only mineral units while you can use your first army than remax with gas units we can't... And you're also saying Terran get less efficient bases.
1. You can use the gas well, but that's a diffirent discussion. It's your choice to go with mineral heavy army. 2. You can have 16 efficient and 24 less efficient workers on minerals, so instead of mining 6 gas on 3 bases you can mine 4 gas and have 6 more probes across those bases on the minerals. You don't want to have more than 70 workers anyway so you're easly below the 24 workers on the minerals per base. It will still give you bigger mineral income and you won't end up with "useless" resources 3. You have fucking MULES, that advantage alone should make up for any problem with mining efficiency you have. And stop with this fucking "link account" it doesn't matter who's saying that the sky is blue and the grass is green if it's fucking logical, all you do is try to find other ways outside of discussion to "disprove" what i'm saying which is a fucking disgusting demagogic cheapshot attempt of an intelectually incapable moron.
The thread specifically stated that low level players should not post, you have been looked at by many as a low level (or trolling) player, so all you'd have to do is prove that "high masters" account exists to maybe give a little bit of credibility to your comment. You should relax though, you're getting very agitated, please refer to the disclaimer about throwing shit at the walls, this isn't the thread for you. |
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