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| Warpath Canada. July 31 2012 23:28. Posts 1210 | Profile # |
On July 31 2012 23:13 mathemagician1986 wrote:
Show nested quote +On July 31 2012 21:48 rift wrote:![[image loading]](http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft/images/8/84/Bonjwa2.png) This uses Glicko-2, which Trueskill is based on, and is the best rating system. Source is every game in TLPD. For those saying "but this is just based on win rates!", you are incorrect. Points fluctuate based on the score of the player beaten; i.e. OSL wins are typically of more value than beating up Proleague scrubs. Se how Bisu is the best player in the first half of 2007 despite having a worse record than Stork or Jaedong. GLICKO-2 also improves on Elo with the introduction of a reliability rating, which assesses the accuracy of a player's score depending how recently they've played games.
that graph doesn't tell me anything to be honest. too many lines.
just only look at the color on the very top, the rest is pretty much redundant. Shows the gap between the bonjwas of their time and.. the rest.Last edit: 2012-07-31 23:28:45 |
| | more koreans is a good thing! || Yᵒᵘ Oᶰˡʸ Lᶤᵛᵉ Oᶰᶜᵉ |  |
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| zanzib China. July 31 2012 23:39. Posts 150 | Profile # |
On a more human level and also as a competitor - I start to wonder whether people start declining in their sheer ability to process information and respond with dexterous movement after a particular time in an individuals lifetime. The answer seems obvious but a part of me doesn't want to believe it.
I used to stare at these kind of graphs for other things like Tennis and Chess too and usually its something like a hump, although in many other forms of competition, there's less of an impetus to respond instantly and experience can be the entire makeup of determining skill, where you see guys like Kasparov maintain a positive slope for a good duration of 20 years.
It's awesome to see particular players that have relative longevity like Storkbi, but on the 6 Dragon's graph it's depressing to see Kal's line just drop. |
| | Sometimes backwards is forwards. |  |
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 Xiphos Canada. August 01 2012 00:15. Posts 5732 | Profile Blog # |
On July 31 2012 23:39 zanzib wrote:
On a more human level and also as a competitor - I start to wonder whether people start declining in their sheer ability to process information and respond with dexterous movement after a particular time in an individuals lifetime. The answer seems obvious but a part of me doesn't want to believe it.
I used to stare at these kind of graphs for other things like Tennis and Chess too and usually its something like a hump, although in many other forms of competition, there's less of an impetus to respond instantly and experience can be the entire makeup of determining skill, where you see guys like Kasparov maintain a positive slope for a good duration of 20 years.
It's awesome to see particular players that have relative longevity like Storkbi, but on the 6 Dragon's graph it's depressing to see Kal's line just drop.
I believe that it is a mental wall that everyone faces and not actual age factor. Once you reach a certain peak, your mind may wonder all to other distractions and you won't be excatly 100% focused. I do believe that someone who started playing BW at age of 30, assuming that his fighting spirit is just as strong as his adolescent days, his passion will overcome this "lifetime peak".
Some players simply burns out after a while. Then they'll refocus on what matters the most.
On the note of Chess, you can't really compare that to Brood War because it doesn't require mechanics at all (well except moving the chess piece but that is really extraneous). Chess players will only get stronger as they accumulate knowledge and experience throughout the years. But however at a certain time in their life, they will too reach that "burn out" stage where slumps happen until their mind pull themselves together once again. |
| | 2012 - Remember of the Fallen Heroes and Command the way to your victory. |  |
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| hacklebeast United States. August 01 2012 00:23. Posts 4635 | Profile Blog # |
| Statistical Bonjwa Theory is a sick band name |
| | Protoss: Best, Paralyze, Jangbi, Nal_Ra || Terran: Oov, Boxer, Fantasy, Hiya|| Zerg: Yellow, Zero |  |
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| Le French France. August 01 2012 00:29. Posts 782 | Profile # |
| Great work! Please spotlight! |
| | Ca va? | |
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| sluggaslamoo Australia. August 01 2012 00:31. Posts 3495 | Profile Blog # |
I remember the days when Flash just couldn't lose.
I almost stopped watching BW for a while during that time.  |
| | BW: Slugger[wOk] feel free to add | No Tidehunter |  |
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| Telcontar United Kingdom. August 01 2012 00:45. Posts 15851 | Profile # |
Very nice.
And it doesn't bother me whether JD's considered a bonjwa or not. He's still one of the best players to have ever played the game, and he has the trophies & stats to show for it. The Tyrant is a good enough title for him. |
| | Et Eärello Endorenna utúlien. Sinome maruvan ar Hildinyar tenn' Ambar-metta. |  |
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| nadafanboy42 Netherlands. August 01 2012 00:53. Posts 185 | Profile # |
On July 31 2012 18:41 No0n wrote:
Just looking at the statistics, Flash SHOULD be the fifth bonjwa, but I think the problem is the term "bonjwa" started and ended with sAviOr. Before sAviOr the term bonjwa wasn't used to describe Boxer, NaDa, or Oov. After sAviOr, people looked back and decided that those three should be labelled Bonjwa as well. In all honesty, Flash should be, but I think it'd be better to leave the Era of the Bonjwas behind and follow the koreans with calling Flash something other than Bonjwa as Broodwar comes to an end.
I just want to double up on this point. The term Bonjwa was something born from the myth and hype surrounding sAviOr back in his prime. People at the time looked back and saw that you could draw a rough 'dynasty' of successive no.1 players, with each new no.1 defeating their predecessor in a high profile match. However a large part of that was just coincidence, and people retroactively interpreting history in a way that fit the 'Bonjwa Model'. With sAviOr's fall from grace the whole Bonjwa concept became tainted by association, and I agree that I think it's best to leave it behind.
That said, as a statistical analysis of the successive no.1 players in Broodwar history, this model is awesome. I really like the way this model shows things like Jaedong and Flash's close rivalry, or NaDa's huge consistency even after his prime.
If you have time, it would be awesome if you could work together with a 'broodwar historian' or someone with a lot of knowledge of the history itself and create an article about how your statistics reflect the events in the game and the careers of the players. The way this article: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=94254 takes the TvZ winrates statistics and sets it to the actual strategy, maps and metagame of the time. |
| | NaDa/Jaedong/Liquid-Fanboy |  |
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| Lorch Germany. August 01 2012 01:02. Posts 2216 | Profile # |
Really sick writeup, about these rating system: Oddly enough a lot of games use ELO or something the developers made up, while microsoft forces all their developers to use trueskill (halo series would be a good example).
If we have to stick with bonjwa (which we kinda have to given how wildly known it is throughout the community), I'd say we decide on both jaedong and flash to become the last two bonjwas of bw, even though flash is/was arguably more successful than jaedong, someone who rapes people with one of the most micro intensive rts mechanics of all time deserves to be on that list. |
| | Terran kids think stutterstepping and medivacdrops are difficult skills, so everything that can't stutterstep is "A move race". Pretty funny | |
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| cyanogeneoexes August 01 2012 01:33. Posts 2 | Profile # |
what a good job!
this must be the most awesome statistic i have ever seen. |
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| blueblimp Canada. August 01 2012 01:46. Posts 257 | Profile # |
| Nice post. The most interesting thing to me here is Midas's rating. Being #1 for a few months is nothing to sneeze at, even if he never reached the peaks the others did. Shouldn't his line be in the final graph, too? |
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 Sc2ttyl United States. August 01 2012 01:59. Posts 245 | Profile # |
| It's funny knowing how savior would have been the ultimate ma bonjwa like he was destined to be. He would have been the greatest player to ever grace earth. |
| | yo | |
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| 7mk Germany. August 01 2012 02:03. Posts 9444 | Profile Blog # |
nice post! thanks
On July 31 2012 23:08 NicksonReyes wrote:
Show nested quote +On July 31 2012 15:19 d_ijk_stra wrote:Lim-Lee-Choi-Ma + Jaedong, Flash lifetime ratings ![[image loading]](http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-tl2E7NIjDME/UBZJ3kRhArI/AAAAAAAAERk/Tft11d56-G8/s640/plot7.png)
Damn, JD performed way better than any of the first 4 Bonjwas. Too bad the very definition of the word didn't allow him to be one because of Flash.
I'm pretty sure that comparison, saying JD performerd way better isnt entirely fair because Flash and Jaedong simply got to play way more games per month than the old bonjwas.Last edit: 2012-08-01 02:04:57 |
| | http://twitter.com/#!/Doc_Awesome . Effort, herO and HerO hwaiting :) | |
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 Fionn United States. August 01 2012 02:03. Posts 16399 | Profile Blog # |
| I thought Flash was proclaimed a bonjwa by the Korean press after he won the MSL/OSL in a span of a week? Pretty sure he's the 5th. |
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| Mortality United States. August 01 2012 02:16. Posts 4790 | Profile Blog # |
On July 31 2012 18:39 Plexa wrote:
Keep in mind that Boxer's TLPD doesn't take into consideration a good number of smaller korean tournaments that he crushed (iirc they weren't on TV though).
Yes.
It is hard to compare results of today with results from back then because during that time the concept of "professional gaming" was very loosely defined. Back then players made their living from tournament prize money, so winning a $2000 tournament that was not on television was still very important even for top players like Boxer.
These days, almost all a player's money comes from the team and progamers are forbidden from even playing in smaller tournaments without permission.
On July 31 2012 18:41 No0n wrote:
Just looking at the statistics, Flash SHOULD be the fifth bonjwa, but I think the problem is the term "bonjwa" started and ended with sAviOr. Before sAviOr the term bonjwa wasn't used to describe Boxer, NaDa, or Oov. After sAviOr, people looked back and decided that those three should be labelled Bonjwa as well. In all honesty, Flash should be, but I think it'd be better to leave the Era of the Bonjwas behind and follow the koreans with calling Flash something other than Bonjwa as Broodwar comes to an end.
"Bonjwa" was first used as a nickname for July from his fans, but it didn't catch on because July was perceived as second to Oov, especially after getting 3-0'd in OSL.
On July 31 2012 23:08 NicksonReyes wrote:
Show nested quote +On July 31 2012 15:19 d_ijk_stra wrote:Lim-Lee-Choi-Ma + Jaedong, Flash lifetime ratings
Damn, JD performed way better than any of the first 4 Bonjwas. Too bad the very definition of the word didn't allow him to be one because of Flash.
Score depends on the number of games you play, same as with ELO. When Jaedong reached his prime, proleague was in the process of expanding to a much greater number of games and 2v2 was being reduced. If you pay careful attention to the numbers, you'll see that TBLS collectively is "ahead" of the bonjwas all at the same time.
Statistically speaking, the most important element for determining bonjwa is the gap between 1 and 2, 1 and 3, etc. That is to say, how far ahead of the rest of the field #1 is.
You might think of it this way: if the world record at some event is 100 but there are a dozen other players who have all scored better than 95, then that's not nearly as impressive as if the world record is a score of 80 but the second best player only has a score of 60.
The only thing startling to me about these graphs is how short the Boxer and Savior eras appear; however, in both cases there were small but significant events that are not featured in the data. For example with Savior playing at WEG or whatever it was called -- this tournament was unofficial and does not count towards stats, but Savior was defeating top players in dominating fashion. |
| | Even though this Proleague bullshit has been completely bogus, I really, really, really do not see how Khan can lose this. I swear I will kill myself if they do. - nesix before KHAN lost to eNature |
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| Aunvilgod August 01 2012 02:26. Posts 2031 | Profile # |
| There you see what makes god god. |
| | Incredible Miracle |  |
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| soulist United States. August 01 2012 02:32. Posts 910 | Profile Blog # |
| I think to not call Flash bonjwa is ludicrous. In late 2009, 2010, and 2011; flash was the undisputed best player, no doubts. |
| | Evil Geniuses<3 |  |
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| iFU.pauline France. August 01 2012 02:34. Posts 499 | Profile # |
| Interesting, that was a good study. We can define bonjwa the way we want, but i will talk more about the influence and psychological impact those players had. As it was stated in an other article regarding the term "bonjwa" it started and ended with sAviOr. After that, sure you got Jaedong and Flash, they won more trophy, but they still had a rivalry, while sAviOr was just over the top. |
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| Signet United States. August 01 2012 02:35. Posts 1664 | Profile # |
On August 01 2012 00:15 Xiphos wrote:
On the note of Chess, you can't really compare that to Brood War because it doesn't require mechanics at all (well except moving the chess piece but that is really extraneous). Chess players will only get stronger as they accumulate knowledge and experience throughout the years. But however at a certain time in their life, they will too reach that "burn out" stage where slumps happen until their mind pull themselves together once again.
Cognitive decline begins in your late 20s. Experience/accumulation of more knowledge can hold off visible effects of that for quite a while, but at some point, that's going to play out for a chess grandmaster similarly to how loss of dexterity plays out for progamers. |
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| chaosTheory_14cc Canada. August 01 2012 03:28. Posts 894 | Profile # |
| Very nice write up. Looking at the statistics Flash is definitely the most deserving of the title. |
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