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| Thorn Raven United States. August 01 2012 03:42. Posts 125 | Profile # |
Jeez, those graphs are quite eye opening.
Basically, Flash became untouchable, it gives me the chills how much higher his numbers go above the other bonjwas.
Flash definitely isn't a bonjwa. He deserves something more prestigious, something that is made for him exclusively. |
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| TommyP United States. August 01 2012 03:58. Posts 5064 | Profile # |
| I dont have the greatest knowledge of Brood War, but isnt Bonjwa given when everybody knows he is the best player at that point in time? So how do stats prove that? And if Flash is the greatest player of all-time, how is he not a bonjwa? thanks for answering these questions guys. Plus I thought Flash was already considered a bonjwa? Last edit: 2012-08-01 04:00:03 |
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| johanes Czech Republic. August 01 2012 04:08. Posts 1950 | Profile Blog # |
On August 01 2012 03:58 TommyP wrote:
I dont have the greatest knowledge of Brood War, but isnt Bonjwa given when everybody knows he is the best player at that point in time? So how do stats prove that? And if Flash is the greatest player of all-time, how is he not a bonjwa? thanks for answering these questions guys. Plus I thought Flash was already considered a bonjwa?
IIRC Flash was officially proclaimed to be beyond bonjwa, he is in his own class. Its like S-class<bonjwa<God<Flash. But this discussion is redundant, it has been discussed to death already. Last edit: 2012-08-01 04:09:22 |
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| muta_micro United States. August 01 2012 04:29. Posts 183 | Profile # |
| Some things cannot be calculated, like the artistry of the play. Flash is the best ever, but no one can seriously argue that his play is as beautiful as Savior's. The way Savior controlled space with almost nothing was extraordinary. It seems to me that Flash discovered some kind of "attrition priniciple", where he understood that Terran is most cost effective and therefore he can defend and trade armies in late game behind a line of tanks, at least in TvZ. |
| | You know when you see a planet and you see that light, that planet isn't even there thats just a light, that's just your neighbor shining a flashlight into your backyard looking for coons. |  |
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| pieisamazing United States. August 01 2012 05:19. Posts 1170 | Profile # |
| sAviOr may have been the "fourth" bonjwa, but he was also the "original" bonjwa. |
| | connoisseur |  |
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| dRaW Canada. August 01 2012 05:25. Posts 3510 | Profile Blog # |
| sorry but you'd have to completely exclude most of this osl and last season of BW as you can clearly tell that motivation is lost for BW and Flash didn't really look like he was trying his best anymore. Fantasy had plenty of time to pick it up but he never did through out the years, I enjoy watching him play but he wasn't as good as Flash, even at the end. |
| | I don't need luck, luck is for noobs, good luck to you though |  |
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 Xiphos Canada. August 01 2012 05:40. Posts 5732 | Profile Blog # |
On August 01 2012 04:29 muta_micro wrote:
Some things cannot be calculated, like the artistry of the play. Flash is the best ever, but no one can seriously argue that his play is as beautiful as Savior's. The way Savior controlled space with almost nothing was extraordinary. It seems to me that Flash discovered some kind of "attrition priniciple", where he understood that Terran is most cost effective and therefore he can defend and trade armies in late game behind a line of tanks, at least in TvZ.
Well without that EVER OSL 2009, he would have never went into his rampage.
And he faced against ALL Zs in that tourny before meeting Movie.
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| | 2012 - Remember of the Fallen Heroes and Command the way to your victory. |  |
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| ymir233 United States. August 01 2012 05:41. Posts 1242 | Profile Blog # |
To me, JD/Flash weren't so much bonjwas so much as masters of their craft. Difference is that while Boxer/NaDa/oov/sAviOr were really really damn good at what each of them did (and thus showcased the different facets of playing BW), they weren't, say, able to master most/all of the skills to the extent that JD/Flash did, or be as consistently clutch (as shown in too many damn statistics posts). So I say that we should simply respect the bonjwas for being the best during their times and for what they contributed to mainstream SC thinking, but then call JD/Flash, very simply, "the best SC:BW players, ever".
Flash is better than JD though...sigh that pains me as a JD fanboy |
| | Come motivate me to be cynical about animus at http://infinityandone.blogspot.com/ // Stork proxy gates are beautiful. | |
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| Malinor Germany. August 01 2012 06:16. Posts 4171 | Profile # |
All in all Flash was better than JD. Though it is hard to compare them because they played different races, you just have to acknowledge the fact that Flash was simply a little bit more succesful. not so much the 6vs5 individual titles (and both have one GOM league), but Flash in Proleague 2010 and 2011 was just unmatched.
I never thought the bonjwa discussions serve any purpose, there is such weird circumstances to obtain that title. Excluding JD from the list of the other 5 players feels incredibly weird, because he clearly was as good as them, if not better than most.
What I really love about Flash vs JD is that their head-to-head is 24-24 in TLPD (you have to substract the all-star game win from Flash, that was the definition of a fun-game). While most of their games were pretty one-sided, some of them were unbelievable good. If the Tau Cross game during the WCG Grand Final would have been played during an OSL Final, it would probably be remembered as the best ZvT game of all time (besides Savior vs Iris game 5 of course).
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| | "Withstand. Suffer. Live as you must now live. There will, one day, be answer to this." ||| "A life, Jimmy, you know what that is? It's the shit that happens while you're waiting for moments that never come." |  |
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 ]343[ United States. August 01 2012 06:45. Posts 8153 | Profile Blog # |
Excellent article  |
| | move along, move along, just to make it through || RIP KT_Violet <3 |  |
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 Plexa Administrator August 01 2012 07:17. | Profile Blog # |
On August 01 2012 02:03 Fionn wrote:
I thought Flash was proclaimed a bonjwa by the Korean press after he won the MSL/OSL in a span of a week? Pretty sure he's the 5th.
Mmm while I don't speak Korean the impression I got was that they didn't call him a Bonjwa, but rather called him 'God' as a way of saying he was better than them. So technically, not the 5th bonjwa! |
| | ~ Spirit will set you free ~ | |
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| {ToT}ColmA Japan. August 01 2012 07:28. Posts 1885 | Profile # |
| I like those graphs, all those names and still have memorable games in my mind, the reason why jd is my personal bonjwa is because i only know how to love terrans, i followed boxer through his time, then nada and oov but jd is the one and only player of a different race which made me cheer for him and be upset when he lost |
| | Miss A fighting \o/ I ve too many biases :( Hyosung Jia Min Soyu Lime Bora Yookyung <3 | |
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| d_ijk_stra United States. August 01 2012 07:30. Posts 36 | Profile # |
On August 01 2012 07:17 Plexa wrote:
Show nested quote +On August 01 2012 02:03 Fionn wrote:
I thought Flash was proclaimed a bonjwa by the Korean press after he won the MSL/OSL in a span of a week? Pretty sure he's the 5th.
Mmm while I don't speak Korean the impression I got was that they didn't call him a Bonjwa, but rather called him 'God' as a way of saying he was better than them. So technically, not the 5th bonjwa!
I second that opinion. I am Korean, and I think Koreans just called him 'God' but not a 'bonjwa'. |
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| AcrossFiveJulys United States. August 01 2012 07:30. Posts 3593 | Profile Blog # |
On July 31 2012 23:13 mathemagician1986 wrote:
Show nested quote +On July 31 2012 21:48 rift wrote:![[image loading]](http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft/images/8/84/Bonjwa2.png) This uses Glicko-2, which Trueskill is based on, and is the best rating system. Source is every game in TLPD. For those saying "but this is just based on win rates!", you are incorrect. Points fluctuate based on the score of the player beaten; i.e. OSL wins are typically of more value than beating up Proleague scrubs. Se how Bisu is the best player in the first half of 2007 despite having a worse record than Stork or Jaedong. GLICKO-2 also improves on Elo with the introduction of a reliability rating, which assesses the accuracy of a player's score depending how recently they've played games.
that graph doesn't tell me anything to be honest. too many lines.
What you're supposed to see is that, despite the lines of every player being present (correct me if I'm wrong) you can see the bonjwas lines individually during the times they were dominant. |
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 Waxangel United States. August 01 2012 07:31. Posts 19044 | Profile Blog # |
On August 01 2012 07:17 Plexa wrote:
Show nested quote +On August 01 2012 02:03 Fionn wrote:
I thought Flash was proclaimed a bonjwa by the Korean press after he won the MSL/OSL in a span of a week? Pretty sure he's the 5th.
Mmm while I don't speak Korean the impression I got was that they didn't call him a Bonjwa, but rather called him 'God' as a way of saying he was better than them. So technically, not the 5th bonjwa!
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=154423#three
REQUIRED READING FOR EVERYONE
"I once compared the concept of Bonjwa to the Seven Wonders of the Ancient World. It was an honorary title with no rhyme or reason to it, only created to fit a specific need at a certain period in time. People have and will continue to try and invoke it in the future, but it will never have its original meaning and or be recognized in the same way again."Last edit: 2012-08-01 07:31:50 |
| | Hey HP can you redo everything youve ever done because i have a small complaint? |
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| nadafanboy42 Netherlands. August 01 2012 07:34. Posts 185 | Profile # |
On August 01 2012 07:31 Waxangel wrote:
Show nested quote +On August 01 2012 07:17 Plexa wrote:
On August 01 2012 02:03 Fionn wrote:
I thought Flash was proclaimed a bonjwa by the Korean press after he won the MSL/OSL in a span of a week? Pretty sure he's the 5th.
Mmm while I don't speak Korean the impression I got was that they didn't call him a Bonjwa, but rather called him 'God' as a way of saying he was better than them. So technically, not the 5th bonjwa!
REQUIRED READING FOR EVERYONE "I once compared the concept of Bonjwa to the Seven Wonders of the Ancient World. It was an honorary title with no rhyme or reason to it, only created to fit a specific need at a certain period in time. People have and will continue to try and invoke it in the future, but it will never have its original meaning and or be recognized in the same way again."
You should make it a test. For one week noone can enter teamliquid.net unless they succesfully answer a three-page multiple choice questionaire on ESPORTS history and terminology. Would be awesome!
Or just make it a Beta-key contest whenever HotS beta comes around... |
| | NaDa/Jaedong/Liquid-Fanboy |  |
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| Jealous United States. August 01 2012 07:35. Posts 2204 | Profile Blog # |
On August 01 2012 07:31 Waxangel wrote:
Show nested quote +On August 01 2012 07:17 Plexa wrote:
On August 01 2012 02:03 Fionn wrote:
I thought Flash was proclaimed a bonjwa by the Korean press after he won the MSL/OSL in a span of a week? Pretty sure he's the 5th.
Mmm while I don't speak Korean the impression I got was that they didn't call him a Bonjwa, but rather called him 'God' as a way of saying he was better than them. So technically, not the 5th bonjwa!
REQUIRED READING FOR EVERYONE "I once compared the concept of Bonjwa to the Seven Wonders of the Ancient World. It was an honorary title with no rhyme or reason to it, only created to fit a specific need at a certain period in time. People have and will continue to try and invoke it in the future, but it will never have its original meaning and or be recognized in the same way again."
Agreed. It's sad how the amount of "____ is bonjwa" has not declined over the years. So sick of people saying "lol there is no way Flash can't be bonjwa" when they don't know anything about anything really -_- |
| | бум бум сучка! | |
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| Zaedyn August 01 2012 08:20. Posts 1 | Profile # |
On July 31 2012 21:48 rift wrote:
This uses Glicko-2, which Trueskill is based on, and is the best rating system. Source is every game in TLPD.
GLICKO-2 also improves on Elo with the introduction of a reliability rating, which assesses the accuracy of a player's score depending how recently they've played games.
The TTT model is also posed in a Bayesian framework, like Glicko-2. It also measures uncertainty (which just isn't included in in these graphs) and volatility.
Unlike Glicko-2, TTT is fit using a state-of-the-art inference method (Expectation Propagation). Glicko-2 is a single-pass method over the set, probably chunked 5 games at a time (if you don't, the Newton-Raphson iterative step won't be effective). TTT is multi-pass, simultaneously considering all of the data, AND accounting for skill changes over time.
I personally prefer the inference method used for this analysis over Glicko-2, and I know the authors of both.
I would trust these > Glicko-2.
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| The_Masked_Shrimp August 01 2012 08:36. Posts 121 | Profile # |
| Everyone should agree that Flaedonsh is the last bonjwa. He alone dominated the whole scene nearly as long as all the other 4 bonjwas together. |
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| Zariel Australia. August 01 2012 09:06. Posts 958 | Profile Blog # |
| Nada, oov, boxer and Savior may have been 'kings'. Flash I would consider as the God of the Kings. Jaedong was the only God-Slayer present |
| | sup |  |
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