in the recent debate about PvZ i wonder, if it is possible to harass the zerg with a forge expand into a early warp prism and templar archives. this should be achived pretty fast, as templars dont need storm tech.
my thought behind this, is slowing down the zerg in terms of larva production, and follow it up with a good gateway/immortal/archon push, while he has like 15-20 larva less than normal. additional benefits are less creep tumors and maybe the zerg misses his injects, as they are not in the normal injectrotation anymore.
i let this run through a build order generator, as i am not good enough to pull it off ingame. and this is what came out after ~2 hours of running through possibilitys.
this would be a warp prism with 2 HT at 7:30, maybe a warpin of the templars could be near the enemy base too, so you will be able to feedback the queens around 7,45....
what do you think? is it possible, does it make sense? why, why not?
regards ScarPe
Awaken my child and embrace the glory that is your birthright. -[The Overmind]
still the inject timing is far off, if you feedback at 15 energy or sth like this. so even if he has more queens, he can not use his energy for that many creep tumors anymore.
Awaken my child and embrace the glory that is your birthright. -[The Overmind]
Markwerf Netherlands. July 31 2012 20:21. Posts 2829
Terribly cumbersome way just to disrupt some injecting, phoenix or just some other form of drop harass does this way better. The problem with HT tech in PvZ is that it's not really effective against roach play which the midgame consists of most of the time. So unless this does huge damage you are stuck on 2 base as stopping roach pressure on the third is very hard without robo tech
On July 31 2012 20:26 ScarPe wrote: you have robotech, where do think does the warp prism come?
sure but you just invested 900 gas and 800 minerals in templar tech path (this is for tech, 2 templars + warpprism), this means that you could instead have had almost 7 sentries and 2 immortals and those are invaluable in a defending a 3rd base. On 2 bases it will mean that you will delay your 3rd for minutes, just because you want to make a ht drop which is easily deflected when its the only thing zerg has to deal with.
a tech, that you need anyways for +2 and archons to deal with mutas correctly. (well if he goes straight mutas, thats a great problem i guess :D)
well the only thing that can deflect the warp prism are the queens at that state of the game. and those are exatly the thing we want to feedback.... how can he deflect it?
this is what you have at the timing, you fly in: 35 Probe 2 Zealot 3 Stalker 3 Sentry 2 High Templar 1 Warp Prism 1 Observer (+ 1-2 cannons)
tech: robo (immortal against roaches) Templar: archons available (against high amounts of lings)
if you start pumping units while harassing, you could be easily attacking with
1-2 archons 2-3 immortals, few zealots/stalkers 3-5 sentrys (maybe +1/+2)
while the zerg has like 15-20 larva less, which means 40 supply less roaches to deal with your army and less creepspread, so your push could be potentially far more devastating.
Last edit: 2012-07-31 20:52:13
Awaken my child and embrace the glory that is your birthright. -[The Overmind]
You're gonna feedback 2 0-25 energy queens... he just lose 2 larva injects out of 4 hatch... then he just get into your main with roaches and you spent a lot of resources just to feedback and get 20-40 energy away from queens for 100 energy of your templars...
Also, what you posted is not a FFE.. it's a 16 nexus=>18 gate just think the zerg is going to get speedling inside your base and get easy win.
On July 31 2012 20:26 ScarPe wrote: you have robotech, where do think does the warp prism come?
sure but you just invested 900 gas and 800 minerals in templar tech path (this is for tech, 2 templars + warpprism), this means that you could instead have had almost 7 sentries and 2 immortals and those are invaluable in a defending a 3rd base. On 2 bases it will mean that you will delay your 3rd for minutes, just because you want to make a ht drop which is easily deflected when its the only thing zerg has to deal with.
@ ScarPe listen to him, he knows what he is talking about.
what i posted is just the fastest way possible to get it out, its not an actuall build.
if you get a FFE, it is maybe a bit l8er, but in this VoD of STephano, he is able to drone up ithout any pressure, so its perfect play from him and he has at around 7:40min/8 mins 60 supply queen and drones and is still not completely saturated....
so feedbacking the queens should mess up his whole midgame.
maybe its not working, but why shouldnt some1 that is far better than me try it a few times? i feel like everyone complains about zerg, but noone trys anything new : /
Last edit: 2012-07-31 21:08:39
Awaken my child and embrace the glory that is your birthright. -[The Overmind]
AmericanUmlaut Germany. July 31 2012 21:07. Posts 2251
There's no way this is worth the investment. You're HT rushing at the expense of whatever other tech you could have had, and you're costing your opponent 2 injects, so they're now 8 larva behind where they should have been. The opportunity cost of the rush is greater than the best-case damage you expect to do to your opponent.
Edit to add: For comparison, a 3-Zealot poke that kills one queen or a couple of Drones and forces, say, 8 lings does more damage earlier in the Zerg's game plan, delays your tech significantly less and costs half as many minerals and no gas.
On July 31 2012 21:06 ScarPe wrote: maybe its not working, but why shouldnt some1 that is far better than me try it a few times? i feel like everyone complains about zerg, but noone trys anything new : /
To be blunt: It's an obviously bad strategy. There's no need to try it out to determine that it's silly. You're saying you can get an advantage by investing 800/900 (300/300 of which is put at risk of being sniped) to slightly reduce the number of larva your opponent has available. Consider that your opponent can literally respond by making two hatches and will have cancelled out your harassment at less expense than you invested in it.
Last edit: 2012-07-31 21:16:19
The frumious Bandersnatch
SC2ShoWTimE Germany. July 31 2012 21:13. Posts 668
you are just investing in useless tech at that point while u have no idea what your opponent does(e.g. spire tech would shut down the harassment immediately). also, your third base will be delayed by a lot and on top of it very hard to defend. so while you slow down his economy a bit you slow down your own economy way more.
This is really creative but you are spending resources on really expensive tech and it will be quite hard to transition out of. I wish you had post a replay. I am gonna go check this out now. Sounds pretty cool, it has potential I think.
other than feedback 0 - 25 energy queens, there isn't much the tech can do. Even an immortal and 2 sentries can deal more massive damage by killing drones + queens, maybe some kind of warp prism all in is the strategy here? idk... feedback is a great spell, great for killing infestors, damaging corrupters.. better against Terran.
ScarPe good work trying to come up with new stuff, but as with everything, it takes many bad ideas to come up with a great one. keep it up!
On July 31 2012 21:07 AmericanUmlaut wrote: There's no way this is worth the investment. You're HT rushing at the expense of whatever other tech you could have had, and you're costing your opponent 2 injects, so they're now 8 larva behind where they should have been. The opportunity cost of the rush is greater than the best-case damage you expect to do to your opponent.
Edit to add: For comparison, a 3-Zealot poke that kills one queen or a couple of Drones and forces, say, 8 lings does more damage earlier in the Zerg's game plan, delays your tech significantly less and costs half as many minerals and no gas.
maybe we could combine that early zealot push and the feedback? you see a way to pressure the 3th with zealots and feedbacking the queens right before that, so he can not reinforce with ling/roach as he would like to? (i guess -8 larva (in the best case) for deflecting like 6-8 zealots, 1-2 sentrys and a archon, is pretty intense)
(eventually, feedback queens, run in with +1 zealots and use the templar as archon?) is it possible to get it at a viable timingon that?
Last edit: 2012-07-31 21:28:40
Awaken my child and embrace the glory that is your birthright. -[The Overmind]
I think it sounds kinda cool, but it's too big of an investment just to reduce the amount of larvae. If he knows it's coming or starts to get low on larvae due to this the zerg will just add a macro hatchery for 300 minerals and you wasted a ton of resources to force him to pay 300 for something that will help him throughout the game.
However i'd like to see you invest slightly more into it, going for a 2-base HT with storm and stormdrop to kill drones and then macro off of that. It's sort of all-inish since you're paying alot to kill drones so you better kill a bunch. But with proper storms you can clear like 15 drones or so. If done properly and you could continue with this harass and couple that with perhaps feedbacking queens if needed then you could make this work. The issue i see is getting this tech from 2-base and then being safe while expanding. If you're staying on 2 bases you must do damage, feedacking some queens from 2-base isn't enough if you don't expand at the same time. If however you from 2 bases do a ton of economic damage and then expand with like zealot/archon you can get out ahead.
On July 31 2012 21:07 AmericanUmlaut wrote: There's no way this is worth the investment. You're HT rushing at the expense of whatever other tech you could have had, and you're costing your opponent 2 injects, so they're now 8 larva behind where they should have been. The opportunity cost of the rush is greater than the best-case damage you expect to do to your opponent.
Edit to add: For comparison, a 3-Zealot poke that kills one queen or a couple of Drones and forces, say, 8 lings does more damage earlier in the Zerg's game plan, delays your tech significantly less and costs half as many minerals and no gas.
maybe we could combine that early zealot push and the feedback? you see a way to pressure the 3th with zealots and feedbacking the queens right before that, so he can not reinforce with ling/roach as he would like to? (i guess -8 larva (in the best case) for deflecting like 6-8 zealots, 1-2 sentrys and a archon, is pretty intense)
(eventually, feedback queens, run in with +1 zealots and use the templar as archon?) is it possible to get it at a viable timingon that?
Yes, and let's combine some mothership recall action while we're at it. You're trying to add together a bunch of pressures that frankly don't flow into one another. Imagine this situation: Zerg sees your drop ship approaching. There are 3 outcomes.
Outcome 1: As stated to death in this thread, you waste your preciously teched to feedback on a queen with less than 100 energy at any league higher than gold. Congratz.
Outcome 2: He plays in any competitive league and does not have more than 25 energy anyways.
Outcome 3: He sucks at injects so he has energy banked, but just transfuses a drone.
As seen, outcome 1 results in still you being behind. Outcome 2 means you're screwed. Outcome 3 means he's mocking the fact that your build will ever work.
i used YABOT to make a few walk throughs, and it came out that a special timing is definatly possible.
as you can see, i stared up with an oldschool build, like i didnt know the exact BO from OZ vs stephano at MLG (the one, where he went gate + core into nexus + forge)
2 gas are enough to pull it off, and with more crisp execution it should be possible to get that warp prism with 2 HTs, aswell as 6 zealots (and maybe a sentry) over to the zergs base at around 8 Minutes.
as you can see in the screenshot, there is still enough room, to add gateways and immortals while you do that push. if you could snipe the third, and may be able togo on with harassing further more, this could rally get you ahead. without a third your upcoming deathball will not be stopped by that many infestors (if he even gets any)
Last edit: 2012-07-31 22:32:35
Awaken my child and embrace the glory that is your birthright. -[The Overmind]
Shaoer United States. July 31 2012 22:23. Posts 38
Why not do a later templar drop and storm his larvae/workers if you are so intent on harassing a zerg's macro? Surely losing a lot of larvae/drones is more harmful than losing 15 energy on a queen?
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