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| ineversmile United States. August 01 2012 14:30. Posts 571 | Profile Blog # |
On August 01 2012 14:20 AlphaWhale wrote:
With all due respect, if you're going to make a build that's key feature is preventing queens from doing what they do. Why not just make a build that can snipe as many queens as efficiently as possible.
My point is, dead queens can't inject, regenerate energy or spread creep.
A lot of the people in this thread are talking over and over about dealing with a roach max instead of just adressing the actual issue here:
The plan is to nullify the use of a 2-food unit by employing a more expensive, higher tech 2-food unit that requires a transport. And then you aren't even killing the queens! You're just stopping them from hitting injects. Guess what? For every HT you build, your opponent can match you with another queen, which is less resource-intensive at a fundamental 3-is-less-than-4 level of mathematics.
If you want to screw up injects, muder the queens. You can do it more efficiently with Phoenixes or with Zealot/Stalker drops. If you're really hellbent on dropping Templar, Storm-drops are amazing--and archon drops aren't exactly bad for killing drones either. |
| | Nostradamus.146@AM, Nostradamus.398@KR, Nostradamus.922@EU http://www.teamliquid.net/blog/ins |
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| Resistentialism Canada. August 01 2012 15:15. Posts 684 | Profile Blog # |
| If you ever find yourself in the position where you're avoiding a confrontation with a slow zerg army (broodlords), maybe that's the time you pick up prism speed to scoot in with some HT to feedback the queens and storm the larve, instead trying to storm the drones when the zerg is sitting on a nicely sized bank. |
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| Mataza Germany. August 01 2012 16:09. Posts 1614 | Profile Blog # |
When I first read what units your build would give you:
Units: 35 Probe 2 Zealot 3 Stalker 3 Sentry 2 High Templar 1 Warp Prism 1 Observer
I thought the goal was Archon dropship harass.
This is mighty thin on defense too, 1 cannon, 8 units and 2 HT is setting you up to be just fricking killed by roach/ling. |
| | If nobody hates you, you´re doing something wrong. However someone hating you doesn´t make you right |
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| EpidemicSC United States. August 01 2012 16:55. Posts 34 | Profile # |
| Why not transition into chargelot archon after this? seems alot more viable then an immortal follow up. For that matter, 4 chargelots snipe queens pretty quickly.... |
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| Mentalizor Denmark. August 01 2012 17:00. Posts 1510 | Profile # |
You realize this is nexus first into gateway, right? This is not FFE.
However, I really like your idea. I think HT+warpprism can be really good. But you can easilly get caught offguard and lose your entire investment (mutas are pretty good at hunting WP and HT).
If he decides to go roach/infestor you can be in a whole lot of trouble aswell. He will not need as many larvae as any build involving lings or just pure roach.
Great idea... but I think it's more risky than going DT. And DTs can have a better tradeoff |
| | (yಠ,ಠ)y - Y U NO ALL IN? - rtsAlaran: " I somehow sit inside the bus.Hot_Bit giving me a massage" |
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| Mentalizor Denmark. August 01 2012 17:01. Posts 1510 | Profile # |
On August 01 2012 16:55 EpidemicSC wrote:
Why not transition into chargelot archon after this? seems alot more viable then an immortal follow up. For that matter, 4 chargelots snipe queens pretty quickly....
Both chargelots and archons get countered by roaches. I think it's clever to make immortals. Especially since he's got the robo already |
| | (yಠ,ಠ)y - Y U NO ALL IN? - rtsAlaran: " I somehow sit inside the bus.Hot_Bit giving me a massage" |
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| EpidemicSC United States. August 01 2012 17:30. Posts 34 | Profile # |
On August 01 2012 17:01 Mentalizor wrote:
Show nested quote +On August 01 2012 16:55 EpidemicSC wrote:
Why not transition into chargelot archon after this? seems alot more viable then an immortal follow up. For that matter, 4 chargelots snipe queens pretty quickly....
Both chargelots and archons get countered by roaches. I think it's clever to make immortals. Especially since he's got the robo already
True, but some zergs, i wont say most, are moving away from the roach max out in favor of ling/bling or muta or quicker infestors. I feel like its slightly less futile then transitioning into sentries/immortals afterwards which would take ages to build up. |
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| ScarPe August 01 2012 17:32. Posts 131 | Profile # |
On August 01 2012 14:30 ineversmile wrote:
Show nested quote +On August 01 2012 14:20 AlphaWhale wrote:
With all due respect, if you're going to make a build that's key feature is preventing queens from doing what they do. Why not just make a build that can snipe as many queens as efficiently as possible.
My point is, dead queens can't inject, regenerate energy or spread creep.
A lot of the people in this thread are talking over and over about dealing with a roach max instead of just adressing the actual issue here: The plan is to nullify the use of a 2-food unit by employing a more expensive, higher tech 2-food unit that requires a transport. And then you aren't even killing the queens! You're just stopping them from hitting injects. Guess what? For every HT you build, your opponent can match you with another queen, which is less resource-intensive at a fundamental 3-is-less-than-4 level of mathematics. If you want to screw up injects, muder the queens. You can do it more efficiently with Phoenixes or with Zealot/Stalker drops. If you're really hellbent on dropping Templar, Storm-drops are amazing--and archon drops aren't exactly bad for killing drones either.
but it seems, that you dont realize what this build, or furthermore the idea of feedbacking queens i done for.
its like this:
my army in mid to lategame is stronger than the zergs army ---> i can kill it
zerg has far better economy by that time --> cant to much about it
i go for the zerg, after constantly feedbacking the queens and attack, when zerg already has a good bank built up
but you know what? i dont care how much he has banked, as he is not ablte to reinforce to 200/200 due to missing larva anymore. so without proper reinforcements, he can have as much recources he wants to, he can not spent them in this particular time, when i go for my push.
------
i realize, that my build is not viable, because it means a hardcore tech without many defenses, BUT there is definetly potential in the mid to lategame, that has to be mentioned.
when i watch PvZ on a pro level, i never see the zerg winning straight up, they allways win with their millions of reinforcements and THAT is where i want this to hit exactly...Last edit: 2012-08-01 17:36:31 |
| | Awaken my child and embrace the glory that is your birthright. -[The Overmind] |
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| Mahtasooma Germany. August 01 2012 17:39. Posts 374 | Profile # |
I like your creative train of thought, but this is a huge early investment, Zerg should have excess queens anyway, and if all fails he'ss just build 2 more macro hatches.
If I'd see something like this, like Day9 says: If you see your opponent do something out of the ordinary, just go f%$ing kill him. |
| | http://twitch.tv/mahtasooma |
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| Marooned Norway. August 01 2012 23:10. Posts 161 | Profile # |
| Imagine the possibilitys if you were able to feedback an orbital command. You could stop a mule and seriously disrupt terrans eco!!!! And this is basically a free investment from protoss in both time and resources. |
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| IveReturned Turkey. August 01 2012 23:53. Posts 241 | Profile # |
how about some sort of 2 robo WP ZLOT multi pronged assault with heavy 3 base turtle into mothership-Archon?
Is such thing possible? I am mid level zerg, even if the zerg is very mobile Protoss is favored with dictating the game and protoss tend to win smaller engagements. |
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| BerkmanZ United States. August 02 2012 00:01. Posts 47 | Profile # |
[quote]Why not do a later templar drop and storm his larvae/workers if you are so intent on harassing a zerg's macro? Surely losing a lot of larvae/drones is more harmful than losing 15 energy on a queen?/quote]
This makes more sense Storming drones is under used, pros are doing it late game with prism speed.
As to your build: I feel like if I saw some guy try and feedback my queens I would storm his base and hold him there while I expand everywhere or try to win with roaches/lings/blings if he fails to hold my attack. IF he countered I would spine and probably have four bases by the time you made your HT drop in the first place.
Any harassment to the third with zealots is always good. Especially if you can kill the queen that is there. Forcing lings or roaches to deal with it and slowing down the drone production by forcing larvae to be used for army. This is where you chrono probes and get ahead. By just using 200-300 minerals in zealots. This does more damage to a zerg than losing some larvae injects in your attack. |
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| Grampz United States. August 02 2012 01:06. Posts 2066 | Profile # |
this just can't work, the guy will just make roaches vs your TEMPLAR ROBO tech and kill you, fuck the injects
archon drops are the way to do it if you want to be fancy, be it with 2 sentries or just double archon drops... Last edit: 2012-08-02 01:07:56 |
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| nakedsurfer Canada. August 02 2012 01:48. Posts 452 | Profile # |
I don't think feedback on the queen would be a big deal since it's 25 energy needed for inject. It'd be much better if it was early storm drops to kill tons of drones or just do a double immortal drop to kill the queen and some drones.
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| Adonminus Israel. August 02 2012 01:48. Posts 483 | Profile # |
I have tried this and if he just puts some roaches/lings around the warp prism, I can't drop or the hts are dead instantly. This results in me doing 0 damage and just wasting gas on several templars and delaying stuff like upgrades, infrastructure and army making it hard to take a 3rd without it dying to max roach or roach ling.
I have only tried it once, I'll experiment more with this build to see if I can somehow make it work. I think this could be used either with adding storm if feedback doesn't work and keeping his army in the base, abusing that for a greedy 3rd and doing some chargelot archon immortal transition as stated before in the thread.Last edit: 2012-08-02 01:53:42 |
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| david0925 August 02 2012 02:57. Posts 190 | Profile # |
On August 01 2012 07:33 ScarPe wrote:
i dont want to kill the zerg with this.
i just try to feedback queens in the right moment and run in with a decent force pretty early on to kill the 3rd.
the thought behind it is, that he may not be able to reinforce properly, if this 8 larva are missing.
after this, it doesent matter if he has 50 drones or 70 drones, its 2 bast against 2 base for a brief period of time and even then
additional feedbacks could slow him further down to saturate that 3rd and 4th, while not being able to get as many units as he wants to...
is there som1 who tried this at all?
because i think that i am not good enough to pull it off, as you will need really good control and micro.
how do you dump ~1k mineral and gas into a harassment at 8 minutes into the game and still have a decent force?
it is voulnerable against a roach all-in, yes.
but i guess, you can not be safe against everthing.
With the army/cannon you have at the 8 minute mark on your screen shot, you're not safe against ANYTHING
I don't know why people treat Starcraft like a single player game. Sure, it's nice to use single player or YABOT for developing new strategy. Then it comes down to
1. How much investment am I putting in?
2. How much risk are you putting yourself into?
3. What kind of payout do I get?
So
1. at 8:00. You spent 200/100 on Robo, 150/100 on Twilight, 150/200 on Templar Archives. This resource investment is vastly different then when you spend the same amount at 50+ probes.
2. You have 58 food at 7:30 with a quick expansion in single player mode, 35 of which are probes
3. You aim to take away 8 larva with investment #1 and #2, while exposing your self to every single kind of aggression and/or all in in the world.
What?
Have you tested this against players? If so, what league? Do you have replays?
It's kind of irresponsible to just throw out a random strategy and go "I'm not good enough here you try". At least test it yourself and show us that it has potential, even with imperfect macro/micro abilities.Last edit: 2012-08-02 03:06:00 |
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| ScarPe August 02 2012 16:15. Posts 131 | Profile # |
| read the thread please. n/c |
| | Awaken my child and embrace the glory that is your birthright. -[The Overmind] |
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| MostGroce United States. August 02 2012 17:38. Posts 77 | Profile # |
I like the thought of throwing off there inject timings as the thought of it seems frustrating but its too much invested. If you want to go that far you might as well add a chrono storm which could be cost effective catching a good amount of drones.
I enjoy going dt's behind a ffe as they aren't gas intensive and it allows 4 gas pretty quick. If they go for a fast third delaying layer/ evo and zergs don't invest too much on spore/ spines early due to relying on queens for early d.
It does well. and if not you can still hit a charge arc timing. I like it, I'm sure its not the best or anything but it's fun none the less.
-- Peace |
| | "I just listen to In Flames and hit buttons, and I have to win."- Vibe |
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| Chaosvuistje Netherlands. August 02 2012 17:58. Posts 2546 | Profile # |
I understand the neccesity of feeling that you have to delay the Zerg in whatever way, but in doing so you shouldn't delay yourself quite as much as you do in your current build. Things like Pylon blocks on a Zergs natural or third offer far more delay for less investment than you do.
Against a good player, he most likely won't have much energy on the Queens at all, which means you do limited damage to it's health which will regenerate over time much like energy, while not even forcing him to build extra Queens. If you kill off the Queen, you delay the Zerg by one injection as well AND force him to invest resources into making additional Queens to get back up to full production. As such, it is far more efficient to drop Zealots into bases and take out the Queens, then just hide them out somewhere else and drop back in after a minute or so to go for another attack on the just spawned Queen. Infact, you can devote more gas to actually defending a counter attack ( in the form of Templar tech if you prefer that ) and be much safer while getting roughly the same delaying done.
If you truely want to go for larvae harass, I think it is far more efficient to go for Storm drops on the larvae ( since spells don't effect larvae's 10 defense and as such easily take them out in one go ) and taking out minutes worth of injections rather than feedbacking the Queens to delay them by one injection. This will prevent a Roach remax far more resource efficiently although you will probably want to do this right before a major engagement so that you can push in straight after defending a large attack and take out economy while the Zerg is delayed on unit production.
I like the out-of-the-box thinking on this, but I feel that it is far more viable as a means to transition into rather than to base your whole gameplan on. Maybe consider double Warp prism harass to take out Queens with Zealots instead to get a similar result. |
| | Follow me on @raamedia, updates on good TL threads and SC2 news. And also webdevelopment ^^ |
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| Broesl Austria. August 03 2012 04:01. Posts 70 | Profile # |
How can you brain not tell you how unreasonable it is to think you are right with your opinion when you are alone against however many people that have told you it sucks, most of them most likely way better than you. Please consider it as not viable until you get to a high masters level and it works or some pro pulls it off frequently. Until then pls let this go, its not worth it to go templar JUST to feedback queens, NO POINT, NONE WHATSOEVER.
Hope youre not taking it the wrong way, I am not saying you shouldnt think of creative strategies and try them, but when half of TL tells you its bullshit, please accept that instead of repeating yourself, not even trying to argue reasonably.Last edit: 2012-08-03 04:01:20 |
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