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| Sianos August 01 2012 00:04. Posts 528 | Profile # |
Introduction
+ Show Spoiler + Hi guys, i´m tired of hearing the whines towards Zerg nowadays, so i thought i could share my style aggainst them which gives me a 77% win ratio(23 games total) as a high diamond player. The build is a solid macro oriented build with a lot of opportunities for aggression aggainst Zerg starting after the 8 minute mark. I started to do this build even before the queen patch was released, because i hated to micro my hellions in the beginning.
The idea
+ Show Spoiler + The general idea in TvZ is disturb the Zerg as much as possible and as early as possible. The builds were designed arround this basic idea, but because of the queen range buff the builds tend to include fast tech and a fast 3rd CC, which gives the terran less opportunities to do disturb the Zerg in the earlygame. In addition the overlords got faster, which makes it nearly impossible to hide tech anymore. That give´s good Zerg players the opportunity to defend aggainst your tech using as less ressources as possible, which brings the Zerg´s in a verry good position in the midgame.
The current metageme includes a Terran doing a 1 rax fe and a Zerg responding with a fast 3rd base. So i wanted a build, which can punish greedy Zerg players with an early attack towards their 3rd. The solution for me was a bio attack with combat shields and 2-3 marrauders arround 8 minutes.
The build
+ Show Spoiler +
Step 1: Standard 1 Rax fe - 10 depot - 12 rax - 13 scout - 14 depot (you can stop building when your depot has 100 hp and send the scv back to mine minerals) - 15 OC (use the scv building the rax to finish the 2nd depot and send it to your natrual afterwards) - 20 CC (use your first marine to scout arround your natrual for hiding drones)
Build constant scvs and marines and supply depots from here
Step 2: - depot near your main cc - bunker near your natrual cc - 2 additional barracks to wallof your natrual
from here use every additonal depot to wallof your natrual
- 2 gases - @ 25 gas -> tl on first barracks - @ 100% tl -> combat shield - build 2 marrauders - @ 100 gas -> factory and ebay - @ 100 % ebay -> +1 attack - @ 100% factory -> starport and constantly build hellions - @ 100 gas -> stim
Combat shield will finish at 8 minutes and 8 seconds. You´ll have 2 marrauder and 17 marines.
Step 3:
@ 300 minerals -> 2 additonal rax in main and 3rd gas @ 100 % barracks -> 2 reactors (when you start building the 2 reactors you add a tl on your factory) @ 400 minerals -> 3rd CC(You build your CC while your 2 barracks are building which is arround 10 minutes)
At 10 minutes i have 3 marrauders, 28 marines, 1 1/2 medivacs, 3 hellions, stim halfway done, +1 bio attack almost done.
After Step 3 you are basically in a standard marine-tank setup and you´ll do the typical transitions aggainst the different Zerg styles and T3 tech.
Adding more tl barracks for marrauders aggainst ultras and a 2nd starport with reactor aggainst broodlords.
Scouting an adaption
+ Show Spoiler + SCV scout at 13 supply:
Leave his base shortly before pool will finishes and hide your scv somewhere near his 3rd base. The most important thing to watch out for is gas. If the Zerg takes a gas before your scv leaves the possibility of allins is higher and you can´t move your first marines arround the map. If he has no gas you can move your first 4 marines to your watchtower for mapcontrol. This is essential because you will deny the Zerg the vision on your 8 minute push as much as possible. To clear the watchtower he needs more than 6 Zerglings, so if you see a lot of zerglings clearing your 4 marines you are in great shape, because he has invested a lot in units instead of economy.
Rescout at the 3rd arround 6:30:
This is essential to tell whether you will do your combat shield timing or not. If he has a 3rd base by that time you can move your army towards his 3rd shortly before your combat shield is finished. If you can control the watchtower with your first marines the Zerg will not be able to react to it in time and loose their 3rd unless he´s already prepared for this types of pushes. In that case you are also in great shape because he had to invest a lot of larva and gas in units. While moving out on the map with your bio army, make sure to walk along walls or cliffs to give the Zerg less opportunities to surround your bio with a lot of zerglings. When you attack his 3rd let your 2 marrauders block the path where the Zerg will most likely send his troops to defend and have 5-6 marines near them. Because most Zergs will just use the attack command for his units he´ll start to attack the marrauders, which give your marines enough time to kill zerglings.
Best case is that the Zerg looses his 3rd. Worst case is that you loose all your units without killing much of Zerg´s units (Bad micro, bad positioning)
Optional: Safe 1-2 scans before you move out to kill creep if the Zerg is crazy with his creepspread.
Follow up: If you can trade a lot of units with the Zerg you can do a hellion drop afterwards in his main to kill some drones, when his units are still at his 3rd.
If you scout no 3rd base: This can be 3 different things: 2 base muta play, 2 base allin, later 3rd between 8-9 minutes. Here you should be more defensive oriented because allins are possible. Have your bio spreaded behind your wall and bunker and put your marrauders behind your depots to tank damage. With this allins should be stopped easily, but keep in mind to build depots when you see the allin comming because you´ll loose the 2 or 3 depots, which are part of your wallof. Constant production is key to defend aggainst multiple waves.
When you successfully hold an allin you can end the game right afterwards with a marine,marrauder,hellion,medivac attack. That´s because he´ll have no tech and will most likely try to get a 3rd base up, which will not stand a chance aggainst this type of push. When pushing keep your marrauders in the front to tank banelings. Have your marines behind and use your hellions to flank the zerg army.
When your opponent does a later 3rd base you can push after your 2nd medivac is ready and attack this 3rd base. Marine,marrauder,hellion,medivac pushes are very strong and fast because you don´t need to wait for your tanks and you can do a lot of damage with a bit of micro. Here again use your marrauders to tank banelings and have your marines and hellions behind them. If you can get up a choke you can have your marrauders blocking the choke, which gives you the opportunity to almost allways kill the 3rd base.
Playing aggainst mutas: Build 2 or 3 turrets per base and leave 8 mainres and a medivac to deny them access to your base. Use your mobile marine,marrauder,hellion,medivac army to kill expandtions. While going mutas the zerg has to spend all his gas on them. When you push out he´ll try to deny your push as much as possible to morph banelings. Using tanks aggainst this style for early attacks can be really difficult and you give the Zerg extra time to react to your push. If you just push straight towards his expandtions he´ll have no time to build his banelings so you can do a lot of damage until his banelings are morphed. The micro is different from tank based play. Instead of using tanks to kill the banelings you use your marrauders and split micro to trade as cost efficient as possible. Even if you loose your whole army. If you could manage to kill an expandtion and trade cost efficient aggainst his banelings you are in great shape, because his T3 tech will be delayed by a lot.
Playing aggainst infestors: Aggainst mass lings + infestors you can easily transition into blueflame hellions which are badass in combination with your MMM aggainst this style. With less lings and more roaches or banelings you should start double tank production. Keep in mind to have a few marrauders in front of your army when you move out to prevent those fungals of death on your marines. The most important thing aggainst infestors is to kill them in a fight. if you can´t manage to kill his infestors you´ll most likely be surprised how fast he can get his t3 tech out on the field.
Infestor play gives you also the opportunity to get complete mapcontrol by building 1 or 2 vikings to kill his overlords. It´s my favorite style to play aggainst.
Reacting to T3
+ Show Spoiler + When you land your 3rd CC you should prepare for Zerg T3. Which means adding 3 or 4 tl barracks for marrauders aggainst ultras and adding a 2nd starport with reactor aggainst broodlords.
Killing the Zerg
+ Show Spoiler + The best way to kill a Zerg is to constantly kill his expandtions. Never try to push right into his main as long as he has expandtions on the map. After the 10 minute mark you´ll be in a standard marine,tank,medivac situation and you can basically play the game like Terran allways tend to do, which means using your upgrade timings for pushes to kill Zerg expandtions. For this it´s very important to safe your scans, so that you can scan ahead your push to spot burrowed banelings and to kill the creep. Never push to much over creep. If creep denies your push towards an expandtion siege your tanks on the edge of the creep and use a few marines or marrauder to kill the creep then pull back and attack another expandtion or the same when the creep is done.
Drops aren´t that important but can be a verry good tool to pull his army away from your push and to buy you time aggainst broodlords.
Weakness
+ Show Spoiler + As i said above i have a 77 % win ratio with this build, which makes it verry solid in my opinion. Baneling allins can still be a pain in the as, if your positioning and spreading is bad or if you don´t scout it in time. But it´s possible to defend aggainst those at least aggainst high diamond and low master players (Don´t know how much stronger those allins can be when played by high masters or grand masters).
Another weakness is imo really bad micro. If your first pushes can´t do any damage to the Zerg, he will most likely outmacro you. You don´t need badass micro but micro is a big part in this build, which will give you a lot of potential to end the game sooner depending on your skill.
Replays
+ Show Spoiler +Will follow soon. Have to watch my games to find some good examples. Last edit: 2012-08-01 00:08:01 |
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Grapefruit Germany. August 01 2012 04:29. Posts 438 | Profile # |
Nice write-up, but how is this any different from the standard bio-style TvZ right now?
Also I don't want to rain on your parade but a 77% win-rate in Diamond does not imply that it is a solid strat (although this one is). |
| | Starcraft 2 is funny, everybody picks the race, which he considers to be the weakest. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ |
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Sc2ttyl United States. August 01 2012 04:42. Posts 245 | Profile # |
| Any competent zerg would just smash you building nothing but drones, Only viable options koreans GMs are doing is rax CC CC or CC first double rax third CC. |
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| netherh United Kingdom. August 01 2012 06:22. Posts 266 | Profile Blog # |
On August 01 2012 00:04 Sianos wrote: SCV scout at 13 supply:
Leave his base shortly before pool will finishes and hide your scv somewhere near his 3rd base. The most important thing to watch out for is gas. If the Zerg takes a gas before your scv leaves the possibility of allins is higher and you can´t move your first marines arround the map. If he has no gas you can move your first 4 marines to your watchtower for mapcontrol. This is essential because you will deny the Zerg the vision on your 8 minute push as much as possible. To clear the watchtower he needs more than 6 Zerglings, so if you see a lot of zerglings clearing your 4 marines you are in great shape, because he has invested a lot in units instead of economy.
Is there a particular reason to scout at 13? I always scout later (with the SCV that builds my barracks), and generally see pool / gas timing just fine (maybe unless I scout last on a 4 player map). |
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| iAmJeffReY United States. August 01 2012 08:35. Posts 3387 | Profile # |
Still no replays?
Just from reading the skeleton, you can do a LOT of changing it up to actually make it refined. The order of upgrades, and their times is all wacked up.
CS is 110 seconds I believe, it should be got last. Stim is 180, +1 170. Stim should start before CS and +1, with +1 shortly after, and CS after about 50-60 seconds... this way they all end together. It can be done before 10 minutes, and still move out with a same size, if not larger, army.Last edit: 2012-08-01 08:37:21 |
| | iAmJeffReY.267 /// http://www.twitch.tv/iamjeffrey_ |
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| sAsImre August 01 2012 08:47. Posts 2962 | Profile Blog # |
What is the purpose of the blindd marauders or the early tech lab on the fac ? you know that 6queens will defend in time the 3rd against your early poke. at least get conc before cs/stim if you want to do an early push (i'd love to be proved wrong /w replays) you get an early starport and you've only 2medivacs at 10min? should prioritize raxes if you want to be aggro or an earlier 3rd.
Imo you tech too quickly while getting bio upgrades (cs/stim) early which is kinda weird. Last edit: 2012-08-01 08:48:24 |
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| GornWood Germany. August 01 2012 09:40. Posts 89 | Profile # |
Well "early" pressure at minute 8 is already late and honestly if you move out with 17 marines the zerg will most likely defend the attack without any serious damage. I kind of laughed at your unit count at minute 10 because marines are the core of you army and having only 28 of them is kind of low. Ok you have 3 marauders, 3 hellions and 1 1/2 medivacs but you still haven't got stim or +1 damage upgrade. I don't want to be rude or something but I am awful with zerg and I still manage to have like 70 lings and a few banes at minute 10, while also having a third base and a decent drone count. I think this would kind of demolish your army/ build. Since you are in diamond I think the timings could be improved quite a bit. But in the end it isn't really different from any standard bio build. If you are on the EU server we could play some games (I would be zerg in that case) just PM me and I will give you my Bnet ID. |
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| derpinator August 02 2012 04:36. Posts 74 | Profile # |
Hi guys, i´m tired of hearing the whines towards Zerg nowadays, so i thought i could share my style aggainst them which gives me a 77% win ratio(23 games total) as a high diamond player. The build is a solid macro oriented build with a lot of opportunities for aggression aggainst Zerg starting after the 8 minute mark. I started to do this build even before the queen patch was released, because i hated to micro my hellions in the beginning.
Please dont start your introduction that way because there are legitimate reasons to whine about this match up.
The current metageme includes a Terran doing a 1 rax fe and a Zerg responding with a fast 3rd base. So i wanted a build, which can punish greedy Zerg players with an early attack towards their 3rd. The solution for me was a bio attack with combat shields and 2-3 marrauders arround 8 minutes.
This has been done since beta and gets crushed by mass speedling very easily. Sure you can surprise greedy zergs with this but that doesnt mean its actually viable. Good luck with your TvZ we all know how hard it is. |
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| TDH Finland. August 02 2012 04:56. Posts 25 | Profile # |
| I dont think this surprise attack can work without helions since you dont have any map control. As the above postar said the zerg can just make mass lings and overrun you, and you will be way behind. |
| | Everybody are Imba in there own way. Even bronse players like me :) |
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| Surgical_Strike United States. August 02 2012 06:09. Posts 72 | Profile # |
This build can either be beaten by MASS drones and only making queens with literally 0 to a few lings to crush your push and be miles ahead of your late third (ive seen an 8-9 minute +1 +CS marine attack with like 20 marines get absolutely destroyed by an 8 queen build with 0 ling support at pro level. 4-5 queens with tranfuse wreck marines without stim/medivac fast [or the zerg will just have a group of ling/bane that will swallow your bio the second you move onto the massive creep]) . Or, a high eco bust can crush you. Maybe if you played better zergs you would realize why pro's and other good terrans have been ("whining") frustrated by the matchup. What you posted is just a sloppy version of a super standard 1 rax expand with a late 3rd that may have worked 6-12 months ago when zerg were not as confident in their defense and would not expand so fast. The builds that work right now are either VERY greedy (usually with hellion/banshee harass 3oc double ups) or a very elegantly performed all in. I guess what im trying to say is... if your build is working for YOU at YOUR level, that's awesome. But, dont go saying you are tired of terrans being whiners and act like you have some amazing build that solves all the problems of the matchup when its a standard bio build without greed or any kind of scary push. |
| | Anything worth doing, is worth doing right. |
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StateofReverie United States. August 02 2012 10:08. Posts 632 | Profile Blog # |
| 28 marines by 10 minutes without stim? how do you defend vs teh baneesssss? and roachesssss? and banelings AND roaches :scared face: |
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