I know there are a a number of discussion regarding bio vs mech. However, they all seem to be pretty updated and did not have many discussions in them, so hence I decided to make a new, fresh one.
I have been pre-occupied with this for almost 3 months now. Bio vs Mech. I will start by listing out the advantages and disadvantages of each, in my own opinion.
Advantages of Bio: - Aggressive, which suits my playstyle. - Mobile, also suits my playstyle. - More intense, high APM required, more entertaining imo since you can do lots of cool stuff like dropping, etc. - Fast to reproduce compared to mech.
Disadvantages of Bio: - Loses in head to head battle against mech. - If they have turret rings, it is hard to drop isn't it? Forcing you to go head to head against his mech army. - Needs to be super duper aggressive, but even then you dont always win, such as the Gumiho vs MMA match a few days ago in GSTL I believe.
Advantages of mech: - Very strong in head to head battles. - Less APM, though more understaning/positioning involved? - Much less micro for those who dont like it, maybe they get tired playing bio often like myself.
Disadvantages of mech: - Immobile..... - Slower to reproduce. - Very expensive, most likely will need 3 bases to have decent production of tanks and vikings.
That is my opinion, now here comes the main reason why I made this thread.
I have been thinking endlessly for almost 3 months whether to go bio or mech in TvT. I personally dont like marine tank. If I want to go marine tank, I would rather just go full mech, or full bio. I have been searching for guides everywhere, including TL here too. I found a guide that tells you to use ghosts and nukes to force unsiege. However, I begin to wonder if this is viable in pro/very high level plays? Because I dont think I have ever seen a a pro use nukes to force unsiege, etc. That is why I have been asking a lot in the terran help me thread.
Furthermore, I feel that using Bio, you need to be insanely aggressive, you truly cannot sit back and do nothing. And for those saying to abuse the immobility of mech, what would you do vs turret rings and sensor towers and in-base 1 or 2 sieged tanks? It is very hard for the Bio player go drop....
Drops and nukes out of the way, I feel like the only way left for the bio player is to go head to head...which is obviously impossible vs mech. I also tried dropping on top of sieged tanks,but they have vikings that do good damage to medivacs.
Lately I have been thinking of going mech. However, the thought of playing long 30+minute games, tank stalemates, transitioning to mass BC viking/raven really is not attractive to me.. If you saw the Gumiho VS MMA game, I think MMA was super aggressive with drops etc, but in the end Gumiho won. Does this indicate that bio is just simply not viable vs mech?
Lastly, if the nuke to force unsiege strategy works, I may think of going bio again...but honestly it is super tough for bio to win vs mech..this is one reason why I have been searching for a game that has this strategy of nuke vs tank lines.
I am pretty tired of thinking of going mech or bio (lol), so I would love to hear, what do YOU do? Do you mech?bio?marine/tank?
EDIT: If anybody has any replay of bio winning vs mech, or using nukes to force unsiege, etc. Also where the meching player has turret rings and sensor, and the bio still manages to win. Please share them here, it could help other bio players too.
Last edit: 2012-08-01 13:11:19
Regarding the imbalance, hilarious to see Zergs defending themselves....
Kamwah United Kingdom. August 01 2012 13:07. Posts 724
When playing Bio against Mech you have to play like how a Zerg does with your army movements and expansion timings. Catch him out in the open un-sieged if you're looking to engage head on. There's always counter attacks when he's out of position also.
TBH, i think you should probably have 3 separate discussions for all the possible match-ups
High masters player for reference
A common misconception is that bio < mech in a head to head fight (Discussion led by Artosis). There are actually quite practical methods to defeat a mech player head on.
In TvT - i go tank marine against tank marine because i love positional wars and catching other guy out of position~ the tactical fights are just fun XD
But if i sniff out a mech player i will always go bio - a common mistake (i believe atleast) is that bio players give air control to mech players. Playing bio against mech i will always go double starport and ensure my viking count is much greater. Now imagine landed vikings and stimming into a tank line. Even if you trade evenly (with regards to supply), you will always have a enough bio to clean up atleast an expansion
In TvZ - always go bio mech against lair based army and then transition into more bio less tanks because mobility is much more important in the late game than any other stage against slow zerg tier 3/4
In TvP haven't ever tried mech XD
HeeroFX United States. August 01 2012 13:09. Posts 1915
Well assuming you are only talking about TvT, I personally prefer Bio/Mech. Bio gives me the ability to drop and move the enemy army around, while my main army with the mech can get into a great spot. The trick with pure bio, is you have to be active on the map and drop around and do bits of damage. You can beat a player going mech if you can keep the tank numbers low and you don't let them turtle. Play it like a zerg and expand all over. Eventually you may have to go up to BC to break the tanks/thors up.
Nuke to force unsiege only works if you have tanks of your own. They unsieged and move back and you gain ground with your own tanks. Dont think it works with bio because if he's mech he'll definately have more behind the front few, even if he unsieges to get out of nuke range.
"why are you trying to eyefuck me? im worried im gonna DIE this is not the right time to hit on me." - day9
And for those saying drops, can you tell me the remedy to sensor towers and turret rings and 1-2 in-base sieged tanks? These are hard to deal with..people can say abuse mobility drop everywhere etc,. but if they read my post they will know that I mentioned something about turret, sensor and in base tanks..
Regarding the imbalance, hilarious to see Zergs defending themselves....
Dagan159 United States. August 01 2012 13:13. Posts 202
Mech is definetly better at holding a position, Bio is better at moving your entire army around the map. Medivacs are the same for both, so I would think their drop potential is fairly equal. Thors drops are under utilized imo, especially in TvZ.
In the case of TvT, mech seems stronger to me, once tank count reach around 6+. At this point bio needs to split up, or it will be crushed.
Try taking an extra medivac to take turret shots, also going very maurader heavy is very good. If at anytime you win the viking war definetively, banshees can nom nom nom fairly easily on tanks, most meching terrans get thors late (after third base).
The ultimate weapon. nuff said.
ArchAngelSC England. August 01 2012 13:14. Posts 207
I firmly believe that bio can never actually beat mech if mech is done right. But I still refuse to mech as I HATE tank stand off's. I even go pure bio vs marine tank now, too.
Nuking to make them unsiege does kinda work, but the main things I try to do is just trade for the whole game so they can't build up a critical mass of tanks. Also when you do engage, make sure you come from multiple angles. And when you're fighting and being shelled by tanks, pull small sections of your army forward towards the tanks (by small i mean a few units) so that the tanks focus those units and minimizes the splash on the rest of your army.
NiteshadeSC2 Canada. August 01 2012 13:15. Posts 72
Wow. Well I have a couple of things I'd like to add - which may very well answer some questions, more than likely will simply add more questions to it all.
You are absolutely right on the pros and cons of the bio vs mech builds. It is easy to try and determine which is better. Realisitcally, both have weaknesses against different strategies so it isn't as clear as black and white.
I generall start off with a bio build and transition to some semblance of a mix IE: marine, tank, medivac, vikings. The trick with bio, like yo usaid is to not allow them to get to the 30 minute mark. you should have been dropping them around 10min, or even earlier. Using the mobility of the drop play will keep the mech in check. At the very least, immobile, and in their base.
As for drops, I don't often run into a lot of turrets in bases - most people elect for spare defences. A lot of players I run into who do throw up sensor towers are minimap watchers, so sending over a couple of dropships, simple to draw the mfrom their front is a great way to exploit the tower. Tower's don't defend nor deter - how you use them is up to you.
Small amounts of turrets are manageable. Remember - what is your goal when you are dropping? Simply to harrass? Kill a particular type of structure? Obliterate? Force them to turtle up even more? Recall some of their army to defend? If you have a clear goal in mind, this will determine how important it is if you lose the small force - or a bigger one if you know his slow mech army is well out of position to defend your attack.
Head to head you can crush a mech army. I have done it, positioning is key, and timing is everything as seiged tanks will always wreck any ground army.
Like I said at the beginning, I may have answered some questions, but raised even more in the process.
Yes I think attacking from multiple angles is really important as bio. What I still want to explore/know more is the usage of nukes to force unsiege. People say the mech player will unsiege that tanks in danger, and leave the rest sieged. This maybe true, so in this case, nukes are worthless then?
Plus, what if he sends hellions to kill my nuking ghost? I just have to send some of my army to defend the ghost right?
Regarding the imbalance, hilarious to see Zergs defending themselves....
Croaker United States. August 01 2012 14:31. Posts 97
On August 01 2012 14:31 Croaker wrote: Send some vikings and a raven with enough energy for PDD, and even the most intense turret ring can still be dropped.
I have still yet to see a PDD drop in a pro replay, sounds great on paper tho.
The ultimate weapon. nuff said.
reallynewbie Canada. August 01 2012 14:48. Posts 7
Hi there, I've been playing bio only in all 3 matchups since the release of the game. I recently did some cleaning of my replays, so i could only find a few, but here they are.(all these replays are semi-long tvts).
Just to let you know, I'm only low diamond(playing high plats/low diamonds). I have the most horrible macro, yet can still win somehow haha.
I've separated some out into Bio/Marinetank/Mech. I think I only have 2 mech replays, but they weren't that great either. One of the mech games that I remember playing I believe I had to base trade, into having him out of position to win. But that one was one of the ones that I ended up deleting
So, there is one marine tank game that I do want you to watch, I believe it's the Shakuras plateau game? It's involving a flank that cuts off reinforcements to an incoming tank/marine/viking push. Think of it as me playing zerg, and cutting off the terran's reinforcements... But instead, using marine/marauder to do so. Then, I a-move into a surround and take that out.
Here's my philosophy in tvt:
Bio vs Bio: Focus on upgrades, and keep the army clumped. As if you try dropping, he/she can just steamroll you as you're out 8-16 marines. In this matchup, you'll really have to take into account the concaves, as concaves can win you games if you're equal in upgrades.
Bio vs Marinetank: Out upgrade your marine tank opponent. They're spending gas on tanks, so why shouldn't you have a upgrade advantage? Drops can still do some thing if they're out of position. But if you can snipe some key structures or something, it might be worth it. But once you out upgrade, hope to catch him out of position/deny 3rds forever, and hopefully you out macro and can swarm your opponent.
Bio vs Mech: Marauders+upgrades+getting a bit lucky.
Ghosts: I've really tried them a bit, but they seem a bit too impractical to get a tank to unsiege. I believe if you nuke directly on top of a tank, and the opponent scans, the tank will kill the ghost. And if you nuke a bit farther back, you'll lose the massive unsiege moment you're waiting for, as well... The nuke doesn't do as much damage. As in, you may kill only one tank out of the 10-15 tanks he may have. I feel that it would be easier to get a flank off on the tanking player than getting a nuke off.
Let me know what you think! Since I'm only low diamond, I've got a longgg way to go!
BlackPanther United States. August 01 2012 14:48. Posts 451
On August 01 2012 14:31 Croaker wrote: Send some vikings and a raven with enough energy for PDD, and even the most intense turret ring can still be dropped.
I have still yet to see a PDD drop in a pro replay, sounds great on paper tho.
There is a famous example in the GSL final between TOP and MVP. MVP dropped 2 or 3 PDD's in front of a large grouping of turrets in TOP's main to negate them and dropped in thors and ghosts to annihilate the main.
jubil United States. August 01 2012 15:35. Posts 1395
Keep in mind you may want to consider map and even spawning location. For example playing vs bio on entombed valley as mech or even as marine tank can be downright hellish if they're cross spawn - so much open ground in the middle for them to hit you from multiple angles. On Shakuras however I'd definitly want tanks - the watchtowers are nice to seige up at.
All-in-all I think marine tank style is the best middle of the road option. The 1 rax FE and even the 1/1/1 opener give you enough flexibility to switch it up if need be - tech labs on the barracks if you need marauders and extra factories if you need tanks/thors; and beyond that ghosts or BCs for lategame. There's nothing that says you can't switch up your unit composition and even strategy if need be. Only problem is needing to pay for multiple upgrades - if you're doing marine tank medivac viking that's 3 different attack and armor upgrades...
Yeah....I just think that playing Bio vs mech you may be able to win, but you need to have insane amounts of APM/multitasking. And going against a skilled meching player, I dont think bio can win except with perfact play which happens very rarely.
So...am I forced to go mech in TvT? With heavy heart, I have no choice but to accept this, but PLEASE tell me of a way to avoid tank stalemates...
Regarding the imbalance, hilarious to see Zergs defending themselves....
jubil United States. August 01 2012 15:51. Posts 1395
Sure people like to say that Bio can't win against perfect Mech, but that's perfect mech, which you won't play against until Code S level. As bio your job is to either exploit the mistakes of the mech player (skimping on turrets, poor turret placement, not seiging in right place/time) or just posture around waiting for him to make a mistake. And there are plenty of tricks you can do - dropping on top of tanks, lead with one marauder or two, flanking, fake drops, hidden expos, not to mention nukes. Unless the meching player hits you with a weird timing or a blue flame drop/runby, he can't really pressure you so you should be free to do these things.
If you are going mech and the opponent is not pure bio, I don't think there is a way to competely avoid tank stalemates unless you only ever use thors and hellions....
For TvT tank stalemates, I just go through a mental checklist - A) if I have air dominance, use vikings for vision B) if even or behind on vikings use scans C) use thors/ravens/marines against vikings - then just keep pushing his tanks back or kill enough of them that you force him to attack. With marine tank you can also try to go for the break yourself.
Just something you have to get used to, like ling bane wars in ZvZ.
I think the 1Fe is a better opener than 2SP banshees. It will set you up much better for the economy you will need for good mech play. A little safer in my mind.
As for banshees, You are right, it is expensive to open with, and if it is successful you will have a huge advantage. BUT at the same token, if it is well countered, it will set you back a great deal.
It depends on where your stengths are: Macro or Micro
Just in terms of nukes its been done before but just to get his tanks to back up so you can move forward. Here is alive pushing against happy using nukes
I've also used nukes buy just when he is stuck in his own base and i have a contain. This either lets me seige his base or it forces him to unsiege and just try and attack me.
"a pitchfork is for hay. a trident is for killing bitches." -djwheat
Kamwah United Kingdom. August 01 2012 13:07. Posts 724
