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| Emporium England. August 01 2012 20:01. Posts 143 | Profile # |
So im a gold level Terran, I feel generally that this MU is absolutely fine for the level im playing, but In this game i had absolutely no clue, how to get past his defense.
I suspect that there was windows of opportunity, and if i was better i could exploit them, so that is the main question Im going to ask, where the hell do i get in and try and kill him!!
Here is the replay:
http://drop.sc/232384
So onto the game,
I open 1raxfe, with the intention of going to pretty bio build adding rax's and starports with possibly a few defensive tanks to stop drops.
I scout him thoroughly with scans, i understand at higher levels that this is cost inefficient, but i also understand that my early game macro is generally alot better than the level i play at, so i trade the scans for the mules knowing that i will likely still be doing well in terms of macro versus him.
SO i had intended push at around 10:30, but i saw that he had a shitton of turrets, so no drops could be done in the main, whilst i tried to hit his nat, so i then scan the Nat and see a wall of defensive tanks. i dont think im going to break through that, so i decide that because of how defensively he is playing just to spread all over the map. with bases etc.
Just as i see that he takes his 3rd i decide to try and push at the back of his main, we haven't cross-spawned but I for a lack of a better term have spawned behind thae back of his main.
SO i siege up at the back take out the turrets, and i think this is where the window is to kill him, i should have dropped all my rines into his main, and just killed everything, but for some reason i am microing my marines from thwe one drop to kill all his main Scv's and i miss the timing.
I do manage to kill alot of SCV's tho, so i know im ahead, as im on 5 bases, altho only 4 are mining.
where he is on 2.
So then as i understand this, and he is still has ridiculous defensive wall of tanks i move back and take the centre aiming on starving him out with drops and just trying to contain him.
I think this is where i go wrong the second time, i don't have enough of anything that can contain, to effectively do so, which i think leads me to ineffeciently trade with him.
Beyond this, i feel the game just slips away as he slowly grinds down a bio force that i have, i tried to tech to BC's knowing that at critical amounts i could crush through, but i dont ever get to it, and after that its just a slow painful death.
TL:DR
opens bio versus a super turtle tank/viking defense with a ridic amount of turrets, how do i go about getting through this, and winning the game.
also the game needs to be watched to give advice as it is very specific, so please if you haven't watched the replay, please dont post generalised responses to bio v mech in tvt.Last edit: 2012-08-01 20:13:33 |
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| sVnteen Germany. August 01 2012 21:31. Posts 2173 | Profile # |
Well you didn't fully min gas all game long (except on base 1 and 2) so the bases were basicaly completely useless as you had 7k mins anyway.
And vs mech you need to be more active as a bio player even if it is not very effective.
Just continue picking off turrets from the turret rings and drop as much as you can with your apm.
If you get all the gasses you should easily be able to establish air dominance which would allow you to swich to bc's (or drop on his tanks since he didn't have any anti air except a couple of vikings).
The way you tried to do it was wrong because you didn't have enough gas to win vs the vikings so it makes no sense to switch to BC's which are incredibly uneffective vs vikings and even more gas expensive.
It all comes down to your poor eco-management and not taking all the gasses (or not fully saturating them) |
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| Emporium England. August 01 2012 21:38. Posts 143 | Profile # |
On August 01 2012 21:31 sVnteen wrote:
Well you didn't fully min gas all game long (except on base 1 and 2) so the bases were basicaly completely useless as you had 7k mins anyway.
And vs mech you need to be more active as a bio player even if it is not very effective.
Just continue picking off turrets from the turret rings and drop as much as you can with your apm.
If you get all the gasses you should easily be able to establish air dominance which would allow you to swich to bc's (or drop on his tanks since he didn't have any anti air except a couple of vikings).
The way you tried to do it was wrong because you didn't have enough gas to win vs the vikings so it makes no sense to switch to BC's which are incredibly uneffective vs vikings and even more gas expensive.
It all comes down to your poor eco-management and not taking all the gasses (or not fully saturating them)
ok thats fair enough. you are definitely right, if i had gas mined the other bases i could have kept trading with him until his resource ran out for vikings.
maybe switching to BC's wasn't the best idea, but i felt like the bigger threat was his tanks. so needed something that could have countered that. i tired to go bc/viking/marine/medi, to counter his tank/viking, but he just had to many vikings.
I only have one question mark over your response, in the replay he nerver just has a couple of vikings, pretty much always has upwards of 15, and constantly was reproducing them. so im not sure how i could get that air dominace and use it effectively, when the other half of my army is bio without a lot of medi's because of the vikings killing them....
And is dropping onto turrets a good idea? from the replay they would die b4 i could drop anything? are you suggesting i pick up say 3-4 medi's in the knowledge that im going to lose at least 1, to try and take out bases with the rest of them?
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| forsakeNXE Germany. August 01 2012 22:16. Posts 171 | Profile # |
to your last question: Try to mix in a raven with pdd to drop without taking much dmg  |
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| Reggae-Troll Finland. August 01 2012 22:17. Posts 238 | Profile # |
On August 01 2012 21:38 Emporium wrote:
And is dropping onto turrets a good idea? from the replay they would die b4 i could drop anything? are you suggesting i pick up say 3-4 medi's in the knowledge that im going to lose at least 1, to try and take out bases with the rest of them?
Well you could always lead the drop with an empty medivac or viking, that way it draws most of the turret fire for only 100/100 and you don't lose any additional units before they can land.
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| Nimix France. August 01 2012 22:36. Posts 437 | Profile # |
Hi, actually you outmacroed him very badly and you could have won by 15mn. Mech army is pretty weak in low numbers, because it's immobile and can't really deal with agression at multiple places. His 3rd was vulnerable for a very long time via the rocks, he had no tanks in range, and he had a very low number of hellions.
You composition is not really suited to deal with mech either, a mech player should have way more hellions than he does to soak minerals and tank damage, and your marines would instantly disappear; you need to be quite marauder heavy against mech. Marauders can also engage siege tanks in low numbers with a little split micro.
What you should have done is pushing with your first medivacs at 10mn; you should already know he's going mech thanks to the standard 6mn30ish scan and you should have around 100 supply. You are only at 78 in the replay but it's still okay, his WHOLE army is 3 tanks and 4 marines. You could have scanned his natural and dropped your 2 vacs behind the tanks in the natural, and attack with the rest of your army up the ramp when he unsieges. You would have won right away, cause he spend LOTS of minerals in turrents that aren't that usefull so early in the game, rather than in hellions which would destroy marines.
Into the mid game you should have gone way more marauder heavy, and as I said before, you should have tried to pressure his 3rd while sieging his main like you did for exemple. You could also have traded badly (ie, rushing into low numbers of tanks with marauder groups) as you had better eco and way more production and supply.
And even if you didn't kill him in the mid game, seeing that he was going crazy on vikings, you could just have continued to make marauders and make runbyes, trading your marauders for his tanks, he was on 3 bases and couldn't afford to lose units, you totally could.
TL;DR, be way more agressive earlier, check his army comp/numbers, and react accordingly. Don't be too afraid of losing bio units, it's kind of their purpose.
I'm only diamond but I hope this helps, even if I know it's not easy to actually play bio correctly  |
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| Dapper_Cad United Kingdom. August 01 2012 23:41. Posts 483 | Profile Blog # |
I am bad but this is what I saw.
I saw the form of a good idea - mass expand when you see the opponent turtle - but the content was lacking - you didn't use the bases you took.
Watching your game I got the feeling you don't know how managing a 3+ base economy should feel. This is perhaps my own bias as it's something I'm working on myself but it might be something you can think about. I got this feeling from the following:
1. No gases taken at new bases for a long time, when gases were taken 1 scv was left in them.
2. Your natural got super over saturated as it ran out of minerals. Your fix was to, after a while, transfer to your 3rd, which was already fairly saturated, while your 4th / 5th were empty.
3. You were on 5 rax for most of the game. 5 rax work for 2 base, beyond that you want 8 on 3 (I think?) and just a ton more as you go later. One of the strengths of bio is the ability to quickly pump out units.
There was a point where I think if you had managed your economy correctly, by properly using your 4/5th bases, you could have built 5-10 star ports and just crushed him.
I encourage you to find a way to see what it is like to control a real 3-4 base economy with proper worker balance and keep your money spent. You can do pretty crazy things. Like suiciding drops to make supply for the 8 vikings and 2 BCs you are making at a time. |
| | But he is never making short-term prediction, everyone of his prediction are based on fundenmentals, but he doesn't exactly know when it will happen... So using these kind of narrowed "who-is-right" empirical analysis makes little sense. |
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| Tyrannicide United States. August 02 2012 03:22. Posts 1 | Profile # |
| If someone turtles quite like he did, expand as much as you can and upgrade. If he continues to play scared, I suggest making ghosts and progressively nuking his tank lines. Eventually, if you can control your units well enough, you'll be able to force an unseige and push him for the win. |
| | SCV Rush – the SC2 website where you’ll feel like home |
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| Emporium England. August 02 2012 05:42. Posts 143 | Profile # |
On August 01 2012 23:41 Dapper_Cad wrote:
I am bad but this is what I saw.
I saw the form of a good idea - mass expand when you see the opponent turtle - but the content was lacking - you didn't use the bases you took.
Watching your game I got the feeling you don't know how managing a 3+ base economy should feel. This is perhaps my own bias as it's something I'm working on myself but it might be something you can think about. I got this feeling from the following:
1. No gases taken at new bases for a long time, when gases were taken 1 scv was left in them.
2. Your natural got super over saturated as it ran out of minerals. Your fix was to, after a while, transfer to your 3rd, which was already fairly saturated, while your 4th / 5th were empty.
3. You were on 5 rax for most of the game. 5 rax work for 2 base, beyond that you want 8 on 3 (I think?) and just a ton more as you go later. One of the strengths of bio is the ability to quickly pump out units.
There was a point where I think if you had managed your economy correctly, by properly using your 4/5th bases, you could have built 5-10 star ports and just crushed him.
I encourage you to find a way to see what it is like to control a real 3-4 base economy with proper worker balance and keep your money spent. You can do pretty crazy things. Like suiciding drops to make supply for the 8 vikings and 2 BCs you are making at a time.
Yeah i agree, with most of the points, i think when i eventually did put extra rax down and extra ports they were reactioanry, as opposed to being identified AS the solution earlier on if i had done this, then i suspect i would have done much better.
Also after i had looked at the replays, going ghosts seems like the best solution, and just keeping adding rax/ports, as i can off of 5 bases do whatever i want.
Just that going to 5 bases happens so rarely in gold league(people make so many mistakes 1 side becomes a clear favourite) that i was ill-equipped to do the strat justice. |
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| Joshhoowah Canada. August 02 2012 11:30. Posts 4 | Profile # |
It looked like your game to lose for most of the mid-game. Your opponent was really patient and positioned his army well, so I would assume he's a well practiced turtle-terran. I still think you could have won the late game by catching him, or forcing him, out of position. Mech terran is fragile and is the slowest at rebuilding armies.
I agree with you that you missed an opportunity with your drop play into the main. I think that if you pressed harder with the attack you could have done a lot more damage, but I don't think you could have ended the game with the attack. He would have had to move some of his tanks to deal with the drop and you would have been forced to withdraw or lose your attacking units.
Your +2base economy needs some work. Your natural was oversaturated for most of the game until it got mined out and your gas was never fully mined on your 3rd and 4th. It makes sense that you wouldn't saturate your gas going full bio, but you need higher tier units to break turtle-terrans. Even if your macro was off, it seemed like you didn't know what units to make or what to do about the tank wall and vikings. Just building lots of units efficiently and throwing them at his wall would have lost you the game anyways.
I don't know exactly what you should have done, but I did notice a few things:
1 - Your marines were pretty useless in the mid-late game. They melted to the tank barrage; I don't think more medivacs would have saved them. I thought they would do a better job taking down the vikings, but your opponents tank positioning kept them out of range.
2 - You had too few tanks to contain him when he made his final push.
3 - Your contain left your base wide open for a counter attack. ~5 tanks sieging at your natural or your third would have forced you to move your army out of position let your opponent take the high ground and reverse the contain.
4 - Your battlecruisers didn't have enough support to survive any focus fire. I know that you were going for a critical mass of units, but I don't know how many battlecruisers it would take to survive the number of vikings you were facing.
5 - You had a lot of banked up minerals you didn't know what to do with in the mid-game.
Thoughts:
1 - I think you had the right idea transitioning out of bio to air. If you wanted to stay bio, I think the best option is to tech up to ghosts and get at least 2-4 nukes. You don't even need to invest in or wait for cloak. The idea is to use the threat of being hit with a nuke to force the tanks to move back and give up ground. This will back them into a corner where you will be able to cancel the nuke(s) and stim forward once all of there tanks need to unsiege and retreat. You need to keep the ghosts out of range of the tanks so you will need to target the ground in front of the tank line.
2 - I think this will envitably happen when you transition to sky terran. You might want to give up the high ground before being pushed back so you still have your bio when you make your counter push. The idea being that you pull back your bio to the air units you've kept back in your base and then push forward trying to catch your opponent off guard or still setting up his contain.
3 - Just an observation. I can picture a push on your natural or third going in either favour.
4 - Battlecruisers, carriers and brood lords all melt to focus fire which makes them all giant floating targets... one of which has a range of 6. I think the Yamoto Cannon is a pretty good investment myself.
5 - I was thinking that the extra minerals could have been used to strengthen your contain and position with static defenses. Bunkers and turrets were free at this point and would slow down and attempt to push you back. I think that building turrets at, and behind, your contain will help you gain the air advantage or slow down the push while the tank clear the turrets.
I hope this gives you a few new ideas to try.
tl;dr: Force the mech army out of position with multiple nukes and attack with a stimmed bio push or add turrets and bunkers to your sky terran transition and pull all your forces together so battlecruisers don't get focus fired down. |
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