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| NIJ August 02 2012 08:13. Posts 912 | Profile # |
On August 02 2012 08:10 AysiktiriX wrote:
Show nested quote +
Did these players break it though? Yeah they did it blatantly. But that's why its so funny. If they even put up a slightest act of trying it would be a different story. That they pretty much mocked the silly rule is what makes it so funny and worth pages of discussion i guess.
Imagine if Naniwa had blind 4gated, instead of probe rushed... hundreds of pages less.
exactly!
here's a dilemma for ya'll. If these players didnt try to throw the game, I would kick them out for not trying their best anyway. I would define the silly BWF rule as them not trying their best when an obvious optimal path to victory was discarded. So they'd be DQed by me no matter what lulz.
Last edit: 2012-08-02 08:14:13 |
| | Act of thinking logically cannot possibly be natural to the human mind. If it were, then mathematics would be everybody's easiest course at school and our species would not have taken several millennia to figure out the scientific method -NDT |
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| Niflheim United States. August 02 2012 08:15. Posts 235 | Profile # |
On August 02 2012 07:16 Redmark wrote:
Show nested quote +If they had served properly and just taken it easy I don't think there would have been nearly this much controversy
See, this is what I don't understand. If you're saying that losing matches on purpose is wrong in any context, that's one thing (that I still disagree with). But why would you think that throwing a match blatantly is somehow worse than throwing a match under pretense of trying? It's like what happened with Naniwa. Why are athletes required to be good actors? They shouldn't be in a position where they have to act.
I see your point and it is a hard line to draw. They obviously stepped over that line and were punished.
What I meant in my earlier post isn't necessarily "losing on purpose" it would just be not fully exerting yourself similar to what people do in swimming prelims. Again, it is a hard line to draw in my opinion |
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| Doraemon Australia. August 02 2012 08:22. Posts 9578 | Profile Blog # |
reminds me of the radio message to Massa "Schumacher is faster!"
i think the bans were harsh in my opinion, not justifying their actions, but it was the format alone that created this incentive and behaviour |
| | Do yourself a favour and just STFU |
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 l10f  United States. August 02 2012 08:43. Posts 3190 | Profile Blog # |
I'd say it's mostly the organizers' fault and the rest coaches' fault. If I were at the Olympics and you told me I had a better chance of reaching the semifinals by losing a match I'd do it without hesitation. You have to think of how much these athletes put into the Olympics. Avoiding top seeds until semifinals is the best chance for you to get a medal. Nobody cares about you if you don't get a medal and all the work you put in goes to waste anyway. They did try their best. They tried their best to give themselves the best chance to win a medal (or most medals for their country).
I can't imagine how some people can blame the players saying that they're a disgrace.Last edit: 2012-08-02 08:44:14 |
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| semantics August 02 2012 08:47. Posts 8561 | Profile Blog # |
On August 02 2012 08:43 l10f wrote:
I'd say it's mostly the organizers' fault and the rest coaches' fault. If I were at the Olympics and you told me I had a better chance of reaching the semifinals by losing a match I'd do it without hesitation. You have to think of how much these athletes put into the Olympics. Avoiding top seeds until semifinals is the best chance for you to get a medal. Nobody cares about you if you don't get a medal and all the work you put in goes to waste anyway. They did try their best. They tried their best to give themselves the best chance to win a medal (or most medals for their country).
I can't imagine how some people can blame the players saying that they're a disgrace.
It's one thing to take a loss, it's another to go out there and just throw a game, it's very insulting to other players. |
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 GnarlyArbitrage August 02 2012 08:50. Posts 575 | Profile Blog # |
On August 02 2012 05:10 BBMorti wrote:
Show nested quote +On August 02 2012 05:02 DigiGnar wrote:
On August 02 2012 04:47 BBMorti wrote:
On August 02 2012 04:39 DigiGnar wrote:
If the best strategies entails losing a match, then lose it. (If first place is still attainable.) If not, then another strategy is needed. So, the structure needs to be changed if the game hosts don't want to see teams losing on purpose in order to win. These people have been working their asses off for the past four years, and probably even more. They will do whatever the fuck it takes to get gold. Even if it means losing a match to get a better shot.
Like in poker, if you think you don't have the best shot at getting someone to go all in and beat them, then do it another hand. You would be stupid to try to take all their chips if you knew you didn't have it in the bag.
You do realise it is not against the rules to fold in poker?
You do realize the object of poker is to win the most chips, right? In other words, get gold. If you knew you had a better chance of winning gold from going route B rather than route A, even if it was against the rules, and it seemed like route A didn't even go where you wanted to at all, would you take route A? Or would you take route B, knowing that you actually have a much better chance at winning gold, something that you have been working for years to do? Let's say you are on a bridge, driving. There's two ways you can go, the left or the right. The left is a ramp that isn't complete, but you could possibly make it by just driving as fast as you could. However, you have a great chance of not making it, and even if you do, your car will be fucked. The right, however, is fully built. The only thing is is that there's a "Do not enter" sign with cops waiting to cut up your liscence. Which one do you take?
Baffling it seems to fligh right over your head that the difference between your hilarious poker comparison and this Tennis issue is that in one the "DOING WHATEVER THE FUCK IT TAKES TO WIN" as you shout out is cheating and in the other (poker) it is not. Do you now understand why your spew is foolish? If you start supporting that it is fine to do whatever the fuck it takes to win then you open up for a bag of shit that holds steroids and worse things. Rules are established for a reason, also in poker.
Do you not understand what I'm trying to say? Go back to the driving comparison. Do you really want to be driving on that bridge at all? I don't. However, if I were, I'd risk getting my license cut up. Things should be changed in order for the best strategy to never involve purposely losing a match.
Btw, China is probably doping. (As do many athletes in the world.) |
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| PH United States. August 02 2012 08:52. Posts 6082 | Profile Blog # |
| I don't think they should have been eliminated. Their goal is to win the gold. If throwing a game on the way there will get you closer to that gold, then go for it. That's dumb. |
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| Bigtony United States. August 02 2012 08:58. Posts 892 | Profile Blog # |
On August 02 2012 08:50 DigiGnar wrote:
Show nested quote +On August 02 2012 05:10 BBMorti wrote:
On August 02 2012 05:02 DigiGnar wrote:
On August 02 2012 04:47 BBMorti wrote:
On August 02 2012 04:39 DigiGnar wrote:
If the best strategies entails losing a match, then lose it. (If first place is still attainable.) If not, then another strategy is needed. So, the structure needs to be changed if the game hosts don't want to see teams losing on purpose in order to win. These people have been working their asses off for the past four years, and probably even more. They will do whatever the fuck it takes to get gold. Even if it means losing a match to get a better shot.
Like in poker, if you think you don't have the best shot at getting someone to go all in and beat them, then do it another hand. You would be stupid to try to take all their chips if you knew you didn't have it in the bag.
You do realise it is not against the rules to fold in poker?
You do realize the object of poker is to win the most chips, right? In other words, get gold. If you knew you had a better chance of winning gold from going route B rather than route A, even if it was against the rules, and it seemed like route A didn't even go where you wanted to at all, would you take route A? Or would you take route B, knowing that you actually have a much better chance at winning gold, something that you have been working for years to do? Let's say you are on a bridge, driving. There's two ways you can go, the left or the right. The left is a ramp that isn't complete, but you could possibly make it by just driving as fast as you could. However, you have a great chance of not making it, and even if you do, your car will be fucked. The right, however, is fully built. The only thing is is that there's a "Do not enter" sign with cops waiting to cut up your liscence. Which one do you take?
Baffling it seems to fligh right over your head that the difference between your hilarious poker comparison and this Tennis issue is that in one the "DOING WHATEVER THE FUCK IT TAKES TO WIN" as you shout out is cheating and in the other (poker) it is not. Do you now understand why your spew is foolish? If you start supporting that it is fine to do whatever the fuck it takes to win then you open up for a bag of shit that holds steroids and worse things. Rules are established for a reason, also in poker.
Do you not understand what I'm trying to say? Go back to the driving comparison. Do you really want to be driving on that bridge at all? I don't. However, if I were, I'd risk getting my license cut up. Things should be changed in order for the best strategy to never involve purposely losing a match. Btw, China is probably doping. (As do many athletes in the world.)
Comparison is stupid. There is no cut out bridge here. |
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| NovaTheFeared United States. August 02 2012 09:16. Posts 5902 | Profile Blog # |
| I keep reading that the throw was to get the best chance at a medal. However, because this rule is in place throwing means DQ. So throwing was *not* the smartest or best strategy for a medal. |
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| Navi Korea (South). August 02 2012 09:19. Posts 3264 | Profile # |
what if both players on either side in a given match were trying to throw?
god that would be unwatchable lol |
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| Mondieu Romania. August 02 2012 09:20. Posts 588 | Profile # |
Seems to me there are like 2 people in this thread that argue that losing on purpose is bad, but they are too butt hurt right now to admit that the referrees took the right decision in this case. Cheaters have no place in the Olympics ! Unless they're my faves ofc  |
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| Aim Here Scotland. August 02 2012 09:20. Posts 650 | Profile Blog # |
On August 02 2012 09:19 Navi wrote:
what if both players on either side in a given match were trying to throw?
god that would be unwatchable lol
That's exactly what happened here, twice over. |
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| m4inbrain August 02 2012 09:31. Posts 1150 | Profile # |
Actually, that needs to be punished hard, because its not just not fair for the visitors (and other teams, who placed themselves legit in a good position) - its also an invite for betting-scandals.
Matchfixing needs to be punished seriously. Especially if you spit so blatantly in the spectators face/olympic comitees faces (they swore an oath to respect the rules, sportsmanship and to "fight" for the honor of their sport and team) and dont even TRY to make it look like a normal match.
Its so disgusting, especially that little korean muppet which actually rolled her eyes while shaking the referees hand. Come on. Maybe the new system is flawed, okay. But that does not in any way justify such a behaviour. Not in the olympics, nor anywhere else. I also want to win (in life), but i dont need to cheat for that. Maybe its my fault for not living in a (too) corrupt country, but to me there is absolutely no excuse for matchfixing or deliberatly losing matches (at least have the decency to brag about it beforehand, so i can place my bets accordingly). |
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| igotmyown United States. August 02 2012 09:31. Posts 2900 | Profile Blog # |
I'm not sure why I have this double standard, but I was more ok with the bw/SC2 players doing this than the olympic athletes.
Maybe I don't have as much respect for esports as the olympics, but I doubt most players have a deep historical respect for some sc2 tournament as they would for being an olympian. Playing at the Olympics at all is often detrimental to basketball player's health and their future seasons because their bodies don't have sufficient time to recover, so it could also be viewed as anti-winning, but players care more about being part of it.
You could say intentionally losing is a better strategy for winning the gold, but you could extend that to betting against yourself for profit. |
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| Savant United States. August 02 2012 09:35. Posts 318 | Profile Blog # |
On August 02 2012 09:20 Mondieu wrote:Seems to me there are like 2 people in this thread that argue that losing on purpose is bad, but they are too butt hurt right now to admit that the referrees took the right decision in this case. Cheaters have no place in the Olympics ! Unless they're my faves ofc
Stop calling it cheating. Some teams found that it was within the rules to lose and gain an advantage in the competition. The "rule" they broke was is asinine and unenforcible except for this one case where the organizers get to cut the players loose and cover their own asses. Losing should be permissible. It's the fault of the whoever came up with this idea for not making sure that losing is always bad.
What's worse, some of the world's best players who trained their whole lives for this get DQ'd and demonized in front the world for beat "cheaters." No surprise, Olympic officials responsible for the whole fiasco are berating them the loudest. Do they expect them to exhaust themselves in match they want to lose? Be better actors? Whole lives of sweat and tears ruined by some bureaucrats who screwed up basic tournament planning and some refs who got their self-righteous panties in a wad. That's despicable.
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| Chairman Ray Canada. August 02 2012 09:42. Posts 7380 | Profile Blog # |
| I blame this on the tournament organizers for a poor format. Even if the players themselves do not throw any matches, having a situation where you gain more by losing a match instills a certain mentality into the players, and the mentality alone undermines the spirit of the Olympics. Additionally, for people sitting at home cheering for their country, for that one match they're going to be cheering on the other team, which you don't exactly want. |
| | You can tune a piano, but you can't tuna fish. |
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| Instigata United States. August 02 2012 09:50. Posts 517 | Profile # |
| Is it in the rules to forfeit? Wonder what would happen if two teams forfeited lol |
| | SC2 was doomed from the start. |
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| Bigtony United States. August 02 2012 09:51. Posts 892 | Profile Blog # |
On August 02 2012 09:35 Savant wrote:
Show nested quote +On August 02 2012 09:20 Mondieu wrote:Seems to me there are like 2 people in this thread that argue that losing on purpose is bad, but they are too butt hurt right now to admit that the referrees took the right decision in this case. Cheaters have no place in the Olympics ! Unless they're my faves ofc
Stop calling it cheating. Some teams found that it was within the rules to lose and gain an advantage in the competition. The "rule" they broke was is asinine and unenforcible except for this one case where the organizers get to cut the players loose and cover their own asses. Losing should be permissible. It's the fault of the whoever came up with this idea for not making sure that losing is always bad. What's worse, some of the world's best players who trained their whole lives for this get DQ'd and demonized in front the world for beat "cheaters." No surprise, Olympic officials responsible for the whole fiasco are berating them the loudest. Do they expect them to exhaust themselves in match they want to lose? Be better actors? Whole lives of sweat and tears ruined by some bureaucrats who screwed up basic tournament planning and some refs who got their self-righteous panties in a wad. That's despicable.
It's gaining an advantage that's against the rules, it's cheating. |
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| Backlash123 Canada. August 02 2012 09:52. Posts 32 | Profile # |
On August 02 2012 07:16 JoeSchmoe wrote:
Show nested quote +On August 02 2012 06:16 NIJ wrote:
I'm pretty sure china tried to lose at least subtlely.
Did you even watch the match? They literally took turns serving on the net 10 times in a row.
To be fair that was only because Korea caught on and they had to have a race to lose. China is absolutely the best at doing walkovers in badminton xD |
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| Savant United States. August 02 2012 09:59. Posts 318 | Profile Blog # |
On August 02 2012 09:51 Bigtony wrote:
Show nested quote +On August 02 2012 09:35 Savant wrote:
On August 02 2012 09:20 Mondieu wrote:Seems to me there are like 2 people in this thread that argue that losing on purpose is bad, but they are too butt hurt right now to admit that the referrees took the right decision in this case. Cheaters have no place in the Olympics ! Unless they're my faves ofc
Stop calling it cheating. Some teams found that it was within the rules to lose and gain an advantage in the competition. The "rule" they broke was is asinine and unenforcible except for this one case where the organizers get to cut the players loose and cover their own asses. Losing should be permissible. It's the fault of the whoever came up with this idea for not making sure that losing is always bad. What's worse, some of the world's best players who trained their whole lives for this get DQ'd and demonized in front the world for beat "cheaters." No surprise, Olympic officials responsible for the whole fiasco are berating them the loudest. Do they expect them to exhaust themselves in match they want to lose? Be better actors? Whole lives of sweat and tears ruined by some bureaucrats who screwed up basic tournament planning and some refs who got their self-righteous panties in a wad. That's despicable.
It's gaining an advantage that's against the rules, it's cheating.
Tell me you can "do your best" in anything you don't want to do and have no reason to do. The would have "cheated" regardless, all they could have done is make it look nicer. As I mentioned, it's asinine. |
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