| Mattson Canada. August 02 2012 02:20. Posts 180 | Profile Blog # |
Four teams from three countries got disqualified from the olympics in badminton today.(China, South Korea, and Indonesia)
I've heard different media stations call it different things. One news anchor said they were DQ'd for unsportsmanlike conduct and another one said it was for match fixing. Regardless of what you call it, they're gone.
What happened? Badminton's set up is very similar to Starcraft tournaments... there's an upper bracket and a lower bracket. The teams in the upper bracket purposely lost their matches so they'd have easier matchups in the lower bracket. It was blatantly obvious that both teams wanted to drop down because they perceived the loser's bracket as an easier path to the finals.
They were just lightly serving the shuttlecock into the net and everyone was booing. Rightly so, they paid to see people play a match not throw a match.
How do you feel about this? On one hand it is a good strategy but on the other hand it devalues the sport.
How would you react if someone in SC2 threw a match for an easier draw in the loser's bracket?
Further reading: https://www.google.com/webhp?sourceid=chrome-instant&ie=UTF-8#q=badminton&hl=en&safe=off&prmd=imvnsu&source=univ&tbm=nws&tbo=u&sa=X&ei=OWUZULqlDcaD7AHrvYDADQ&ved=0CBcQqAI&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.r_cp.r_qf.&fp=da40643cfb5288eb&biw=1366&bih=600 |
| | Cynicism isn't wisdom; it's a lazy way to say that you've been burned. Seems if anything you'd be less certain after everything you ever learned. |
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| Iyerbeth England. August 02 2012 02:23. Posts 2199 | Profile Blog # | |
| | ♥ Liquid`Sheth ♥ | Why choose the lesser evil? | |
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| Mattson Canada. August 02 2012 02:26. Posts 180 | Profile Blog # |
| Which is why I posted it in blogs and why I asked how you'd feel if someone did this in the context of SC2 |
| | Cynicism isn't wisdom; it's a lazy way to say that you've been burned. Seems if anything you'd be less certain after everything you ever learned. |
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| wei2coolman United States. August 02 2012 02:32. Posts 9641 | Profile # |
| It's good strategy, it's fair. If tournament organizers don't want this kind of strategy to be used, it's up to the tourney organizers to fix format. |
| | Curse & Doublelift fanboi. |
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| FlaShFTW United States. August 02 2012 02:40. Posts 4957 | Profile Blog # |
| its a legitimate strategy... its not like ur throwing the finals or like an elimination styled format. ur just placing yourself somewhere else. |
| | Never Surrender. Never GG. Always Fighting. BW4LYF. Woo Jung Ho Never Forget. |
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| Salivanth Australia. August 02 2012 02:41. Posts 815 | Profile Blog # |
Could anyone explain to me why this is a good strategy?
Winners Bracket Round 2 (Arbitrary number), even match. Next round you face a hard match in the Winner's Bracket (10% chance to win). But if you throw the game, you face an easy match next round. (90% chance to win) Possibilities:
You win this one, then win the next one 5% of the time. You stay in the winner bracket for Round 4.
You win this one, then lose the next one 45% of the time. You're in the Loser's Bracket for Round 4.
You lose this one, then win the next one 45% of the time. You're in the Loser's Bracket for Round 4.
You lose this one, then lose the next one 5% of the time. You're out of the tournament.
So, if you throw this game and win the next one, you're in exactly the same situation as you would be if you didn't throw the game, won it, and then lost next round. Added to that: Anything can happen. If you lose in the loser's bracket, your tournament is over. Plus, no matter how good they are, all but one team is going to end up in the loser's bracket eventually...it's not like the loser's bracket is a cakewalk.
Essentially: Anyone in the winner's bracket is always better off than anyone in the loser's bracket, since the worst thing that can happen to you is going down to the loser's bracket...which the losers are already in. So why on earth is it a good strategy to throw a game to get easier matches in the loser's bracket? I'm stumped. What am I missing? |
| | <@Wikt> so you are one of those nega-fans <@Wikt> that hates the company that makes a game and everything they stand for <@Wikt> but still plays the game <@Wikt> (like roughly 30% of blizzard's player base, maybe much more...) |
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| Iyerbeth England. August 02 2012 02:43. Posts 2199 | Profile Blog # |
Edit: Actually it doesn't matter. There's a discussion here, it's all good.  Last edit: 2012-08-02 02:45:29 |
| | ♥ Liquid`Sheth ♥ | Why choose the lesser evil? | |
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| Cheerio Ukraine. August 02 2012 02:44. Posts 2104 | Profile Blog # |
I would really like to see a match where both teams want to lose badly. This would be hilarious ^^
On the other hand I dont understand how dropping to lower brackets can get you easier way to the finals. Certainly this is not the case in sc with its double elimination system. Do they use something different?Last edit: 2012-08-02 02:48:49 |
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| wei2coolman United States. August 02 2012 02:44. Posts 9641 | Profile # |
| Its not about loser bracket, in group play, you get placed on how well you do in group as well~ essentially you can go farther in a tournament by dictating where you place in the bracket, through group stages. |
| | Curse & Doublelift fanboi. |
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| Stratos_speAr United States. August 02 2012 02:53. Posts 3725 | Profile # |
On August 02 2012 02:32 wei2coolman wrote:
It's good strategy, it's fair. If tournament organizers don't want this kind of strategy to be used, it's up to the tourney organizers to fix format.
There are very clear rules against this kind of thing in the Olympic rulebook. Furthermore, it goes against everything the Olympics stand for. 100% deserved DQ. |
| | A sound mind in a sound body, is a short, but full description of a happy state in this World: he that has these two, has little more to wish for; and he that wants either of them, will be little the better for anything else. |
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| Mattson Canada. August 02 2012 03:07. Posts 180 | Profile Blog # |
On August 02 2012 02:41 Salivanth wrote:
Could anyone explain to me why this is a good strategy?
Winners Bracket Round 2 (Arbitrary number), even match. Next round you face a hard match in the Winner's Bracket (10% chance to win). But if you throw the game, you face an easy match next round. (90% chance to win) Possibilities:
You win this one, then win the next one 5% of the time. You stay in the winner bracket for Round 4.
You win this one, then lose the next one 45% of the time. You're in the Loser's Bracket for Round 4.
You lose this one, then win the next one 45% of the time. You're in the Loser's Bracket for Round 4.
You lose this one, then lose the next one 5% of the time. You're out of the tournament.
So, if you throw this game and win the next one, you're in exactly the same situation as you would be if you didn't throw the game, won it, and then lost next round. Added to that: Anything can happen. If you lose in the loser's bracket, your tournament is over. Plus, no matter how good they are, all but one team is going to end up in the loser's bracket eventually...it's not like the loser's bracket is a cakewalk.
Essentially: Anyone in the winner's bracket is always better off than anyone in the loser's bracket, since the worst thing that can happen to you is going down to the loser's bracket...which the losers are already in. So why on earth is it a good strategy to throw a game to get easier matches in the loser's bracket? I'm stumped. What am I missing?
Nice wall of text but I can answer it easily.
Prize money.
The person who drops down has an easier chance of getting 2nd place and more prize money.
Where as the person who faced Sen had a better chance of getting 4th and less prize money.
Greed is the root of it.
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| | Cynicism isn't wisdom; it's a lazy way to say that you've been burned. Seems if anything you'd be less certain after everything you ever learned. |
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| Salivanth Australia. August 02 2012 03:16. Posts 815 | Profile Blog # |
Wei2coolman: Thanks. I didn't know that. That move makes sense in the context of the Olympics now, if not a StarCraft tournament.
Mattson: Still not understanding here. If you face Sen and win by some miracle, and then lose the next round, you're now in the Loser's Bracket with a chance of still making second. This is exactly the same situation you would be in had you thrown the game, and then beaten someone worse than you in the Loser's Bracket. Why would you have a good chance of coming 4th if you lose to Sen? Do you not get to drop down to the Loser's Bracket and get another chance if you lose in one of the final rounds of the Winner's Bracket? |
| | <@Wikt> so you are one of those nega-fans <@Wikt> that hates the company that makes a game and everything they stand for <@Wikt> but still plays the game <@Wikt> (like roughly 30% of blizzard's player base, maybe much more...) |
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| netherh United Kingdom. August 02 2012 03:20. Posts 266 | Profile Blog # |
On August 02 2012 02:53 Stratos_speAr wrote:
Show nested quote +On August 02 2012 02:32 wei2coolman wrote:
It's good strategy, it's fair. If tournament organizers don't want this kind of strategy to be used, it's up to the tourney organizers to fix format.
There are very clear rules against this kind of thing in the Olympic rulebook. Furthermore, it goes against everything the Olympics stand for. 100% deserved DQ.
Really?
Because in this instance the best thing for both teams was to lose the match. So they tried hard to do so. You can't put players in a situation where it's better for them to lose.
If the organisers don't want this to happen, they should allow for a team to forfeit a match / flip a coin if the situation arises. Or they could fix their format so that there's never a match that it's beneficial to lose.
It's 100% the organisers fault, and it's frankly gross and pathetic that they're trying to put any of this on the players - neither team deserves a penalty.
Last edit: 2012-08-02 03:21:55 |
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| Sethronu United Kingdom. August 02 2012 03:47. Posts 445 | Profile Blog # |
| Actually, they weren't trying to throw the match to get an easier qf/sf matchup. They did it to avoid facing the second team of their nation earlier on; also punishing BOTH teams in that situation is stupid, especially since there weren't an explicit warning given. DQ the team which did lose eventually, not both of them. |
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| OmniEulogy Canada. August 02 2012 03:59. Posts 2155 | Profile Blog # |
On August 02 2012 03:47 Sethronu wrote:
Actually, they weren't trying to throw the match to get an easier qf/sf matchup. They did it to avoid facing the second team of their nation earlier on; also punishing BOTH teams in that situation is stupid, especially since there weren't an explicit warning given. DQ the team which did lose eventually, not both of them.
yes there was. The ref came out and gave a final warning to both teams. Well deserved DQ's. |
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| GoShox United States. August 02 2012 04:10. Posts 1056 | Profile Blog # |
| Man you guys would have really hated what the Koreans did during WCG's in Brood War. |
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| FlaShFTW United States. August 02 2012 04:32. Posts 4957 | Profile Blog # |
On August 02 2012 04:10 GoShox wrote:
Man you guys would have really hated what the Koreans did during WCG's in Brood War.
we'd rather have competitive matches though with korea vs korea than foreigner vs korea unless that foreigner was like relaly freaking good. |
| | Never Surrender. Never GG. Always Fighting. BW4LYF. Woo Jung Ho Never Forget. |
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| Mattson Canada. August 02 2012 04:53. Posts 180 | Profile Blog # |
On August 02 2012 03:16 Salivanth wrote:
Mattson: Still not understanding here. If you face Sen and win by some miracle, and then lose the next round, you're now in the Loser's Bracket with a chance of still making second. This is exactly the same situation you would be in had you thrown the game, and then beaten someone worse than you in the Loser's Bracket. Why would you have a good chance of coming 4th if you lose to Sen? Do you not get to drop down to the Loser's Bracket and get another chance if you lose in one of the final rounds of the Winner's Bracket?
Sen plays Zerg
SarenS played Terran
If you were Stephano would you want to leave your tournament life up to a ZvZ?
Who ever faces SarenS has a better chance of reaching the final and getting more prize money.
Yes, if Sen wins you'll eventually have to face him.
The question is if you want to face him in the final or the semifinal.
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| | Cynicism isn't wisdom; it's a lazy way to say that you've been burned. Seems if anything you'd be less certain after everything you ever learned. |
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| JDub United States. August 02 2012 05:11. Posts 902 | Profile # |
On August 02 2012 04:53 Mattson wrote:
Show nested quote +On August 02 2012 03:16 Salivanth wrote:
Mattson: Still not understanding here. If you face Sen and win by some miracle, and then lose the next round, you're now in the Loser's Bracket with a chance of still making second. This is exactly the same situation you would be in had you thrown the game, and then beaten someone worse than you in the Loser's Bracket. Why would you have a good chance of coming 4th if you lose to Sen? Do you not get to drop down to the Loser's Bracket and get another chance if you lose in one of the final rounds of the Winner's Bracket?
Sen plays Zerg SarenS played Terran If you were Stephano would you want to leave your tournament life up to a ZvZ? Who ever faces SarenS has a better chance of reaching the final and getting more prize money. Yes, if Sen wins you'll eventually have to face him. The question is if you want to face him in the final or the semifinal.
I think what Salivanth is trying to say is this: in double elimination, intentionally losing in the winner's bracket to avoid facing someone further on in the winner's bracket is never beneficial, since the worst that can happen is falling to the loser's bracket, which is where you would be if you intentionally lost your winner's bracket game.
In the Stephano / Sen / SarenS situation, I assume it was not just regular ol' double elim? Was the bracket going to depend on group standings or something? This is the question the Salivanth is asking. |
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