| c0sm0naut United States. August 05 2012 03:12. Posts 531 | Profile # |
HI, id like to get some Terrans opinions on this, as well as others if you want to chime in.
if you watch squirtle play pvt, he will start a zealot and then cancel if he can confirm no ebay block
this allows him to be safe against early marauder builds by having the zealot if he needs it (no on is gonna ebay block and also go marauder..) otherwise (vs gasless fe from terran) he can cancel, get a quicker nexus and not waste those minerals.
ive started to experiment with this as a terran player, but with my early game marines. i was playing TvTs with alow gm terran and consistently he was doing :
12 barracks, 15 OC, 15 CC, then starting marine production
the effect is that your CC starts at 3:00 instead of 3:10 (i've tested). ive noticed in some korean TvZ as well, that the Terran will 1 barracks expand, then double gas before starting marines or scvs or getting that 2nd depot. the effect o this is hellions coming out to clear your watch tower at 6:15 instead of 6:30
ive found that the earlier hellions are incredibly helpful at scouting / holding the 20 speedling push into baneling all in becuase they hit the watch tower that much earlier.
later on i played vs a good protoss who tends to open 10g zealot stalker and then expo, and i found that if i skipped ANY marines he would just runby the bunker and just instantly win the game (kill scv building CC, then a million marines with his first stalker)
do you do this marine cutting in order to get your 2nd/3rd raxes or tech out faster? i feel that it's very strong, esp if your follow up is 2gas but i'd like to get some hi master/gm opinions on this because i dont know how worth skipping the marines is at a high level |
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| Avril_Lavigne United States. August 05 2012 03:32. Posts 445 | Profile # |
Yes, it's called powering. cutting units in favor of a faster expand, early production structures, faster upgrades. If you don't need the units and want to power this is what you do.
Edit: for the record, high master/ex gmLast edit: 2012-08-05 03:33:31 |
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| c0sm0naut United States. August 05 2012 03:39. Posts 531 | Profile # |
| ty for the response. i mean i understand the general idea but what i'm kind of asking is if i'm playing someone who is competent/playing standard correctly is this worth the risk? i have "powered" a couple of times but even on ladder i dont think people people are very good and scout correctly and so maybe this is why it works |
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| Willzzz United Kingdom. August 05 2012 04:12. Posts 684 | Profile # |
'Powering' is not risky unless you miss something big.
You can definitely skip the odd marine and still be safe from a zealot/stalker run by, you can always build extra when you see the zealot coming. |
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| 13_Doomblaze_37 United States. August 05 2012 04:14. Posts 705 | Profile # |
It depends how risky you want to play. If you're sure that the other guy is play NR15, you can just go cc first. Constantly producing marines from your rax when it gets done will help you against any early marine scv pressure, a zealot stalker poke, or a fast pool with 6 lings. If you wait too long with your marine, your opponents scout can force you to move your scv away from your building cc.
Better players can hold off pressure with just scvs and 1 or 2 marines, but you will incur losses if they pressure you. You will get tech and production out faster if you cut army, but thats what you get. Tech, economy, army, pick 2. If you pick incorrectly you'll take some damage. |
| | Chill:I showed empathy by making Idra's nineteenth ban on Teamliquid a 2-day |
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| Aveng3r United States. August 05 2012 04:23. Posts 616 | Profile Blog # |
| I usually just get 1 marine to chase off the scout. The only real benefit I get from it is a cc a few seconds sooner, but I guess every little bit helps when you are trying to hit these ultra-tight timings |
| | Grandmaster starcraft2 bad manner-er and master league NA terran |
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| Rekcinad Netherlands. August 05 2012 04:38. Posts 21 | Profile # |
I would personally always produce the first marine, as it gives you the safety you need to deal with anything cheesy like proxy gates and cannon rushes and makes it easier to chase out the scouting probe. After that you can cut marines until you've started your 2nd CC.
After this it depends a lot on what you scout with your initial SCV. If you see the protoss going for a zealot before stalker, the safest option is to continue marine production from here and build a bunker before the 2nd and 3rd barracks. This will effectively deny the protoss from running past your bunker with a zealot and stalker, and if done correctly he won't even spot your command center. Most protoss bring a probe with their zealot/stalker poke and try to get the probe in while your marines focus on the zealot/stalker. Target the probe as soon as you see it to deny any scouting.
If you see he's not making a zealot, you can skip the bunker until after your barracks (possibly after your gasses too, if you feel confident). You can micro against a stalker with just 3 marines and a ramp. |
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| Dark.EX United States. August 05 2012 04:38. Posts 1504 | Profile Blog # |
Unless the guy didn't scout you with a worker, I would always get that Marine because the worker can harass you like there's no tomorrow. The Marine can be built simultaneously with SCV's, and if the Marine is past the worker in your base, the worker is going to die 100% if you micro correctly.
Since Terran and Protoss always (in my experience) scout with a worker, I always get that first Marine against those two. Against Zerg, I always get that one Marine. Without it, I can't deal with pressure earlier than before Hellions, --regardless of the amount-- without that Marine since I go 1Rax FE into Reactor Hellion/Banshee, which doesn't make more Marines past the first one.Last edit: 2012-08-05 19:16:19 |
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| The Final Boss United States. August 05 2012 05:12. Posts 1813 | Profile # |
| As long as you're scouting and you do it on the right map then it should be fine. I've seen Terrans do it though I cannot say I have done it myself before. |
| | Bogus Bonjwa STX hwaiting |
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| MyLastSerenade Germany. August 05 2012 05:19. Posts 707 | Profile # |
didnt mkp do some kind of this powering vP with 2nd w/o marine and w/o OC? he did normal opening ( gasless FE ), but didnt stop worker production for OC, instead he kept producing worker, started his 2nd cc, and then started his OC and build a marine.
i am a masters terran, and i go always with 1 marine, but then, depending on what i see cut production and/or get an earlie bunker, most P dont get it, when u only have 1 marine in ur bunker and u can get away with it! |
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| Adonminus Israel. August 05 2012 05:48. Posts 486 | Profile # |
| Though I feel powering is a more used method with protoss and zerg, since both those races have mechanics (warp or larva) that allow them to quickly produce an army if something goes wrong. |
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| Willzzz United Kingdom. August 05 2012 06:13. Posts 684 | Profile # |
There's nothing wrong with making rax and leaving them idle, you can make marines if you need to. In fact building reactors is like powering as you are skipping 2 marines per rax until later on.
While terran doesn't have the same production mechanics they have repair which fulfils a similar function early on if pressure comes that you can't deal with just with the units you have out. |
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| imBLIND United States. August 05 2012 06:13. Posts 1809 | Profile Blog # |
| It's just the order in which you want to develop your early game in and how much you can get away with. Just remember you have about a 1minute of "dead time" where you have to shift your resources to defense if you want to get away with everything you built. Scout well, deny his scout, and you'll be fine |
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| TRaFFiC Canada. August 05 2012 08:24. Posts 460 | Profile # |
On August 05 2012 04:38 Rekcinad wrote:
I would personally always produce the first marine, as it gives you the safety you need to deal with anything cheesy like proxy gates and cannon rushes and makes it easier to chase out the scouting probe. After that you can cut marines until you've started your 2nd CC.
After this it depends a lot on what you scout with your initial SCV. If you see the protoss going for a zealot before stalker, the safest option is to continue marine production from here and build a bunker before the 2nd and 3rd barracks. This will effectively deny the protoss from running past your bunker with a zealot and stalker, and if done correctly he won't even spot your command center. Most protoss bring a probe with their zealot/stalker poke and try to get the probe in while your marines focus on the zealot/stalker. Target the probe as soon as you see it to deny any scouting.
If you see he's not making a zealot, you can skip the bunker until after your barracks (possibly after your gasses too, if you feel confident). You can micro against a stalker with just 3 marines and a ramp.
This. I like the first marine, then cc, then keep making marines. Vs toss, I skip the bunker till after 2nd rax + gas. Usually have 4 marines when the stalker pokes the ramp. With good micro you cam take down it's hp. |
| | Mid Master Terran Streaming http://www.twitch.tv/trafficxxx |
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| Maxilicious August 05 2012 09:00. Posts 134 | Profile # |
Typically, this is called 'cutting corners'.
Although this example is considered minor in terms of cutting corners, it is still having the same concept. |
| | http://terrancraft.wordpress.com/ |
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| Sianos August 05 2012 18:20. Posts 528 | Profile # |
| Well it helps you to get your stuff a little bit faster, which you can use for example aggainst a Nexus or CC first or even in those Gate/Rax Fast Expands situations. But i think you don´t really need in in ladder, because there it often is enough to just play "safe" and "solid". I don´t know how it is in Master or higher (Just got Master recently) but i still thing unless you are facing really strong opponent´s mit´s not really necessary and you should focus on other things. |
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| Willzzz United Kingdom. August 05 2012 19:06. Posts 684 | Profile # |
| Often it is actually safer to skip units, there are certain points in the game where you simply don't need many units and it is safer to skip some now in order to have more units later on. |
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| DrDevice Canada. August 06 2012 00:34. Posts 54 | Profile # |
Sometimes you can accomplish some really cool timings with a cut in marine production. I occasionally do this build I took from MKP where he does the typical 1rax 1depot expand into 3rax + double gas, then makes double ebays right away and cuts marine production for a minute to get them upgrading before he even starts stim. By doing this and also managing his factory/armory timing correctly he gets a very very early +2/+2 push that simply wouldn't be possible if you insisted on constant marine production while getting your upgrades started.
I don't have any actual replays but here is a VOD of the build I described http://tv.majorleaguegaming.com/events/10-winter-championship#949/954/1;84539 |
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 Pokebunny United States. August 06 2012 00:41. Posts 9582 | Profile Blog # |
| I think making a marine and going 16 cc is pretty much always the better option - if you cut marine you are risking a probe delaying your natural (more than a few seconds) or a probe harassing your scv off of building, which basically makes up the ten seconds. |
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| vBr Sweden. August 06 2012 01:03. Posts 175 | Profile # |
| One marine is always worth it and versus protoss, you are gambling a game by not building more. I assume you are not competing in next seasons Code A or against likewise difficult opponents with the same things on the line so I suggest you just play normal. These incredibly small deviations does not make you a better player and these details are pretty pointless to hammer out to perfection unless you are at a level where it actually counts. |
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