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| Dark_Chill Canada. August 06 2012 03:56. Posts 1013 | Profile # |
On August 06 2012 03:00 zulu_nation8 wrote:
you're not suggesting much to dispel the notion that people who dont play this game shouldnt suggest changes. I basically told you on page 1 that no changes are needed, and it took you like 50 different responses to finally be convinced.
It took me 50 different responses with more detailed feedback to convince me that some changes weren't needed, some were needed, some needed tweaking, and some weren't worth it to make without hurting the game. That's how I went from my starting list to what I have now, and list is still changing. Your first statement is pretty hard to look at. Not all the changes I suggested have been met with negative views, so that must mean at least some of the suggestions must have some merit despite my current level in LoL. |
| | http://myanimelist.net/animelist/Chill77 |
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| Goorf United States. August 06 2012 04:16. Posts 12 | Profile # |
On August 06 2012 03:00 zulu_nation8 wrote:
you're not suggesting much to dispel the notion that people who dont play this game shouldnt suggest changes. I basically told you on page 1 that no changes are needed, and it took you like 50 different responses to finally be convinced.
Your first post gave him 0 criticism which is what he wanted says "there in a good state now leave them alone" is like telling some one who cant stop 4gate in SC2 to just micro better..... he wants solid informed feedback to make these changes actually viable. Theres no reason to flame some one for just wanting feedback...
Any way back to the real disscussion...
Sivir: range increased to 525
With no actual gap closer, having 500 range is pretty dangerous, especially when you don't have great base defense or any cc. Slight range should make her feel a bit more safe while still keeping her feel.
You say she doesnt have great base defense when she has an active banshies which can soak up a large portion from a burst on a champ like annie/kass
Thats all i got for now.... |
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| Dark_Chill Canada. August 06 2012 04:36. Posts 1013 | Profile # |
On August 06 2012 04:16 Goorf wrote:
Show nested quote +On August 06 2012 03:00 zulu_nation8 wrote:
you're not suggesting much to dispel the notion that people who dont play this game shouldnt suggest changes. I basically told you on page 1 that no changes are needed, and it took you like 50 different responses to finally be convinced.
Your first post gave him 0 criticism which is what he wanted says "there in a good state now leave them alone" is like telling some one who cant stop 4gate in SC2 to just micro better..... he wants solid informed feedback to make these changes actually viable. Theres no reason to flame some one for just wanting feedback... Any way back to the real disscussion...
Show nested quote +Sivir: range increased to 525
With no actual gap closer, having 500 range is pretty dangerous, especially when you don't have great base defense or any cc. Slight range should make her feel a bit more safe while still keeping her feel.
You say she doesnt have great base defense when she has an active banshies which can soak up a large portion from a burst on a champ like annie/kass Thats all i got for now....
Remember though, Sivir has no reposition, no cc, and her ms boost being on a pretty substantial cooldown. Having one of the lowest ranges of AD carries makes it pretty dangerous to be in a position like that. Her E is great, not doubting that, but her range puts her in some pretty dangerous situations which she'll have trouble getting out of. |
| | http://myanimelist.net/animelist/Chill77 |
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| Ente Germany. August 06 2012 04:59. Posts 662 | Profile # |
The thing with Sivir is against good opponents you will get crushed in lane due to having subpar range (500 is the lowest among Kogmaw I dont consider Urgot as AD he would have 425) against not so great opponents you will just stomp everyone with taric/sivir cause you can oneshot ppl being out of position for one second. Personally I think im one of the only guys still playing sivir every now and then at high Elo in Europe she is decent but as I said you will not win many lanes if the enemy plays carefully, I would probably spam her if I would want to get to higher elo again (interestingly I have ~60% winrate with her)
In my opinion sivir needs some kind of small buff her ultimate nerf hit her a lot she was a really great initator with it while giving your team a good amount of AS |
| | lol acc: Entenzwerg EUW http://www.twitch.tv/Entenzwerg league of legends stream (challenger EuW) |
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| Zooper31 United States. August 06 2012 05:17. Posts 3437 | Profile # |
On August 05 2012 11:08 Dark_Chill wrote:
Show nested quote +On August 05 2012 11:01 zulu_nation8 wrote:
ad carries are really close to each other right now..
Zulu, that's exactly what I'm not looking for. If you said that, along with reasons as to why X buff/change was too strong, or that X champ was already strong enough, then that would be helpful. Having one sentence answers that don't help me and certainly don't use your time effectively, it's really not helping anyone. Edit: I don't think you'll find someone saying that Varus is just as good as say, Ashe. A stun with a long range and the potential to slow people around the target is a bit better than a snare with the potential to snare other people around the target. Varus has a small aoe slow, which seems worse than Ashe's W. Ashe also has the ability to slow on AAs, and E can offer amazing map awareness along with a nice little passive. Varus does have a bit more damage than Ashe late game, but Ashe's utility all throughout the game more than enough makes up for that.
Can't compare AD carries simply on their ults. Ofc Ashe has the best ult in the game by far if you go by AD carries. It's a giant global 3sec stun on a target. Varus wins 1v1 but Ashe lategame is based purely on her ult and her ability to kite, nothing more.
I don't think you have the understanding to do these kind of comparisons if you're not high enough elo. You even mentioned you don't even see like 3-4 champs so you have no clue, one of them (Urgot) is fairly common pick too. Also what about Ezreal, Corki, Ashe, and Kogmaw you mentioned nothing about them.Last edit: 2012-08-06 05:17:33 |
| | Asato ma sad gamaya, tamaso ma jyotir gamaya, mrtyor mamrtam gamaya |
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| Dark_Chill Canada. August 06 2012 05:46. Posts 1013 | Profile # |
On August 06 2012 05:17 Zooper31 wrote:
Show nested quote +On August 05 2012 11:08 Dark_Chill wrote:
On August 05 2012 11:01 zulu_nation8 wrote:
ad carries are really close to each other right now..
Zulu, that's exactly what I'm not looking for. If you said that, along with reasons as to why X buff/change was too strong, or that X champ was already strong enough, then that would be helpful. Having one sentence answers that don't help me and certainly don't use your time effectively, it's really not helping anyone. Edit: I don't think you'll find someone saying that Varus is just as good as say, Ashe. A stun with a long range and the potential to slow people around the target is a bit better than a snare with the potential to snare other people around the target. Varus has a small aoe slow, which seems worse than Ashe's W. Ashe also has the ability to slow on AAs, and E can offer amazing map awareness along with a nice little passive. Varus does have a bit more damage than Ashe late game, but Ashe's utility all throughout the game more than enough makes up for that.
Can't compare AD carries simply on their ults. Ofc Ashe has the best ult in the game by far if you go by AD carries. It's a giant global 3sec stun on a target. Varus wins 1v1 but Ashe lategame is based purely on her ult and her ability to kite, nothing more. I don't think you have the understanding to do these kind of comparisons if you're not high enough elo. You even mentioned you don't even see like 3-4 champs so you have no clue, one of them (Urgot) is fairly common pick too. Also what about Ezreal, Corki, Ashe, and Kogmaw you mentioned nothing about them.
Things have changed throughout the thread. I took out parts that weren't needed (champs with no changes). I don't have the understanding, as proven by a lot of the people in this thread, which is basically why I'm here. I've gotten a long way from the original suggestions thanks to this forum, and the changes do seem a lot more reasonable.
Twitch I don't see, partly because he's new and people still have a negative stigma attached to him. I've faced him once, and his burst at low levels caught me completely off guard. Sadly that was the last I'd seen of him, so I can't make any comments about him. I suspect he's in a good place, but if I get anything about him from this thread I'll try and put it in.
Urgot I just don't see. From what I understood, before the Q revert, Urgot was destroyed by those nerfs and had his unique playstyle taken away from him. I don't know what he's like now, but when a champ gets that kind of treatment, it'll take a lot to get people at lower levels to play him again.
MF is someone I also don't see much, and I'm really stuck on what to change about her anyways. I don't really feel like she's in the best place, or what you pick her for, which is why I don't want to do anything until I have some feedback from the community.
I also know you can't compare ult to ult alone. I also compared the rest of their kits, though it is hard to do so. With really rough comparisons and through a bit of playing him and vs him (I know, but anecdotal evidence is one of the only sources I have), I found that he was kind of underwhelming. His win ratio according to lolking also hover around 50% but is usually under. I used that to decide that maybe Varus could use some small buff. |
| | http://myanimelist.net/animelist/Chill77 |
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| Zooper31 United States. August 06 2012 06:13. Posts 3437 | Profile # |
On August 06 2012 05:46 Dark_Chill wrote:
Show nested quote +On August 06 2012 05:17 Zooper31 wrote:
On August 05 2012 11:08 Dark_Chill wrote:
On August 05 2012 11:01 zulu_nation8 wrote:
ad carries are really close to each other right now..
Zulu, that's exactly what I'm not looking for. If you said that, along with reasons as to why X buff/change was too strong, or that X champ was already strong enough, then that would be helpful. Having one sentence answers that don't help me and certainly don't use your time effectively, it's really not helping anyone. Edit: I don't think you'll find someone saying that Varus is just as good as say, Ashe. A stun with a long range and the potential to slow people around the target is a bit better than a snare with the potential to snare other people around the target. Varus has a small aoe slow, which seems worse than Ashe's W. Ashe also has the ability to slow on AAs, and E can offer amazing map awareness along with a nice little passive. Varus does have a bit more damage than Ashe late game, but Ashe's utility all throughout the game more than enough makes up for that.
Can't compare AD carries simply on their ults. Ofc Ashe has the best ult in the game by far if you go by AD carries. It's a giant global 3sec stun on a target. Varus wins 1v1 but Ashe lategame is based purely on her ult and her ability to kite, nothing more. I don't think you have the understanding to do these kind of comparisons if you're not high enough elo. You even mentioned you don't even see like 3-4 champs so you have no clue, one of them (Urgot) is fairly common pick too. Also what about Ezreal, Corki, Ashe, and Kogmaw you mentioned nothing about them.
Things have changed throughout the thread. I took out parts that weren't needed (champs with no changes). I don't have the understanding, as proven by a lot of the people in this thread, which is basically why I'm here. I've gotten a long way from the original suggestions thanks to this forum, and the changes do seem a lot more reasonable. Twitch I don't see, partly because he's new and people still have a negative stigma attached to him. I've faced him once, and his burst at low levels caught me completely off guard. Sadly that was the last I'd seen of him, so I can't make any comments about him. I suspect he's in a good place, but if I get anything about him from this thread I'll try and put it in. Urgot I just don't see. From what I understood, before the Q revert, Urgot was destroyed by those nerfs and had his unique playstyle taken away from him. I don't know what he's like now, but when a champ gets that kind of treatment, it'll take a lot to get people at lower levels to play him again. MF is someone I also don't see much, and I'm really stuck on what to change about her anyways. I don't really feel like she's in the best place, or what you pick her for, which is why I don't want to do anything until I have some feedback from the community. I also know you can't compare ult to ult alone. I also compared the rest of their kits, though it is hard to do so. With really rough comparisons and through a bit of playing him and vs him (I know, but anecdotal evidence is one of the only sources I have), I found that he was kind of underwhelming. His win ratio according to lolking also hover around 50% but is usually under. I used that to decide that maybe Varus could use some small buff.
Fix the op then with the changes you've made then lol. And they reverted his Q nerf for Urgot. |
| | Asato ma sad gamaya, tamaso ma jyotir gamaya, mrtyor mamrtam gamaya |
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| Pibacc Canada. August 06 2012 06:22. Posts 307 | Profile # |
| You admitted that you don't play very much, so don't make a post on balance. You don't have enough experience, and asking for the input of random forum users doesn't validate your suggestions. And yes, I do believe that the balance suggestions of non high caliber players should be disregarded, mostly because they don't have the understanding/experience needed. |
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| Dark_Chill Canada. August 06 2012 06:27. Posts 1013 | Profile # |
Updated op to account for anyone coming in.
On August 06 2012 06:22 Pibacc wrote:
You admitted that you don't play very much, so don't make a post on balance. You don't have enough experience, and asking for the input of random forum users doesn't validate your suggestions. And yes, I do believe that the balance suggestions of non high caliber players should be disregarded, mostly because they don't have the understanding/experience needed.
Asking for the input of multiple players, some high ranked and some low-ranked, certainly does improve my suggestions. Just looking at what the changes used to be, I don't think there's any point in arguing that. So while I, as a low-elo player aren't qualified to make accurate suggestions, what about several players of different skill levels helping me refine my suggestions? That has to count for something, right?Last edit: 2012-08-06 06:35:05 |
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| Zooper31 United States. August 06 2012 06:52. Posts 3437 | Profile # |
On August 06 2012 06:27 Dark_Chill wrote:Updated op to account for anyone coming in.
Show nested quote +On August 06 2012 06:22 Pibacc wrote:
You admitted that you don't play very much, so don't make a post on balance. You don't have enough experience, and asking for the input of random forum users doesn't validate your suggestions. And yes, I do believe that the balance suggestions of non high caliber players should be disregarded, mostly because they don't have the understanding/experience needed.
Asking for the input of multiple players, some high ranked and some low-ranked, certainly does improve my suggestions. Just looking at what the changes used to be, I don't think there's any point in arguing that. So while I, as a low-elo player aren't qualified to make accurate suggestions, what about several players of different skill levels helping me refine my suggestions? That has to count for something, right?
What we're trying to say is that you shouldn't even be in the equation when it comes to balance. The high elo and professionals players should be strictly doing it.
100 1600 elo players are still worse than the input of 10 2400+ players.Last edit: 2012-08-06 06:53:44 |
| | Asato ma sad gamaya, tamaso ma jyotir gamaya, mrtyor mamrtam gamaya |
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| Ente Germany. August 06 2012 07:53. Posts 662 | Profile # |
Asking for the input of multiple players, some high ranked and some low-ranked, certainly does improve my suggestions. Just looking at what the changes used to be, I don't think there's any point in arguing that. So while I, as a low-elo player aren't qualified to make accurate suggestions, what about several players of different skill levels helping me refine my suggestions? That has to count for something, right?
sorry but refining your suggestins are basically completly erase them and put others in I usually dont like to say "you are bad you are not allowed to say that blabla" it is kinda true you just dont have the experience/skill to value and rate that. What you could do is ask: what to do with that champ or ask what are the weaknesses not propose some random mostly bad balance changes and let them get completly reworked |
| | lol acc: Entenzwerg EUW http://www.twitch.tv/Entenzwerg league of legends stream (challenger EuW) |
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