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| NiNjAPlation United States. August 07 2012 04:18. Posts 85 | Profile # |
Hi i am a platnium level protoss who is having alot of trouble late game vs terran.
Game http://drop.sc/234774
Map- condemned ridge
Matchup- PvT
Game Length- 47:12
We spawn cross positions (Top Left/Bottom Right). I open up with a 3 gate robo, and when my robo finishes i immediately produce and obs and send it to terrans base, i spot 3 rax 1 starport 1 factory. The star port has a tech lab and is researching something i assume cloak on the banshee. At 11:26 the banshee harass dies down with a total of 5 probes killed and no banshee kills my nexus is thrown down around 6:50. Nothing really note worthy happens for a while i make gateway units + collosus and get extended thermal lance. At around 13:10 he pokes in with another banshee and kills 2 probes but loses the banshee. At 15:50 i drop down my 3rd he does not have a 3rd base at this point. In this time i throw down 2 stargates and begin to produce void rays, while still producing collosus. Terran does a bit of poking at 20:50, he kills a void ray and a cannon, and then at 21:00 a battle happens right outside my main. Terran has no upgrades and my ground is at 1/1, I win the battle but he kills all but one of my collosus. At this time we are both on 2 1/2 bases (main has no mins). He is taking his 4th at the time at 23:07 i put down my 4th base in the bottom left hoping to keep it hidden (it stays hidden for a while). At 26:56 he does a drop with 5 medivac fully loaded with marines into my main. He kills a cybernetics core a robo and some stalkers. At 30:20 he drops my nat kills some probes and comes close to sniping the nexus. At 32:18 terran attacks my main with landed vikings. He kills a pylon and some stalkers and loses some vikings. At 34:20 he redrops my 3rd and kills it. At 35:20 i catch a good deal of his ground army of of postion and kill it. At 36:39 a battle takes place right outside his 4th, i kill his whole army with 10 stalkers and a zealot left, and his 4th base gets killed. At around 42 min he spots my hidden expos and attacks, the last real engagement of the game takes place here and he comes out ontop. The game is over at this point 42 supply to 132 terran wins.
Im sorry if i forgot anything i put alot of time into this thread so your advice would be appreciated :D <3 thank you for your time |
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| Conreik France. August 07 2012 06:38. Posts 42 | Profile # |
Why would you ever tech up to voirays against a terran bio composition ? I don't think anybody does that.
That's funny because normally getting into the late game is ezpz for toss :D.
Once you get the colossus tech, you should slowly tech up to HT with storms. Once you have stoms and colo, terran can't really stop you, unless they have very good control (they don't, not in plat). So you basically a click storm everything and it's gg. |
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| NexCa Germany. August 07 2012 07:09. Posts 841 | Profile # |
On August 07 2012 06:38 Conreik wrote:
Why would you ever tech up to voirays against a terran bio composition ? I don't think anybody does that.
That's funny because normally getting into the late game is ezpz for toss :D.
Once you get the colossus tech, you should slowly tech up to HT with storms. Once you have stoms and colo, terran can't really stop you, unless they have very good control (they don't, not in plat). So you basically a click storm everything and it's gg.
Maybe the worst answer I've read in a while, if you really think that way, you're probably not even Masters, no offense tho
To the replay: 1st off, don't play 3gate robo on such a huge map, play like Nexus 1st or 1gate Expand, it's really safe on such huge maps since Terran / Zerg need a while to get to your base. In the 1st 10 Minutes you have like 3 Minutes where you don't build a single worker, which puts you behind economy wise. You get harrassed by a banshee, and another 2ish ~ Minutes where you don't build probes.
Obviously Conreik is correct that Voidrays aren't really effective against Terran, skip them for the future...
You are expanding at the 16th minute mark, thats WAY too late, and just 4 gates at 16 minutes is just not really good, you need like 6-8 at that point, depends on what you're playing.
You play Stalker heavvy ... You have no blink the whole game, and work on your upgrades, try to watch some pro replays and learn the timings, I guess that should be the best solution for you
And get Storm, you HAVE TO switch from Collossus to storm
Imagine this: you traded army's you won the ground fight, he won the Air battle, you have no Collossus left and he has like 10 Vikings left, would you restart Colossus production ? Not at that moment ! you go for storm ( you are smart, you already have templar tech at that point ! :D ). You don't build Colossus where he has superior counter to that Unit already ! (some szenarios are different of course)
I think you should work on your early game:
1. Constant Probe production (even if you get harrassed)
2. More gates, skip starport ! (well i think in your case, try to get at least 3-4 gates per base, you build more as the game goes longer
3. Upgrades are really important ! Try to use them, and chrono the shit out of your forges !
4. Btw, off-pylons are amazing for counter attacks and shutting down his expansions 
I guess that's it ! Good luck on ladder Last edit: 2012-08-07 07:10:57 |
| | Best Protoss Player 4 ever - Bisu[Shield] || http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=326242 || THIS IS WHERE WE STAND, THIS IS WHERE THEY FALL, GIVE THEM NOTHING, BUT TAKE FROM THEM EVERYTHING ! || SKT FIGHTIIING |
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| Conreik France. August 07 2012 07:42. Posts 42 | Profile # |
I made a mistake writing my answer, I wanted to mean that once you are in the late game it's ezpz, not getting it ...
But yeah, once you get the 2 aoe and a lot of gateways to repop, unless you are taeja, the game is over.
User was warned for these postsLast edit: 2012-08-07 09:31:16 |
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| trolldrew Afghanistan. August 07 2012 09:30. Posts 14 | Profile # |
On August 07 2012 04:18 NiNjAPlation wrote:
We spawn cross positions (Top Left/Bottom Right). I open up with a 3 gate robo
Imo, unless you're planning to 1 base all in, you should try a more economical build, esp since the maps in ladder r so big. Terran reinforcements are slow and it's actually pretty difficult to punish toss going for a quick expo on most maps without accidentally overcommitting. |
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| NiNjAPlation United States. August 07 2012 09:30. Posts 85 | Profile # |
On August 07 2012 07:09 NexCa wrote:
Show nested quote +On August 07 2012 06:38 Conreik wrote:
Why would you ever tech up to voirays against a terran bio composition ? I don't think anybody does that.
That's funny because normally getting into the late game is ezpz for toss :D.
Once you get the colossus tech, you should slowly tech up to HT with storms. Once you have stoms and colo, terran can't really stop you, unless they have very good control (they don't, not in plat). So you basically a click storm everything and it's gg.
Maybe the worst answer I've read in a while, if you really think that way, you're probably not even Masters, no offense tho To the replay: 1st off, don't play 3gate robo on such a huge map, play like Nexus 1st or 1gate Expand, it's really safe on such huge maps since Terran / Zerg need a while to get to your base. In the 1st 10 Minutes you have like 3 Minutes where you don't build a single worker, which puts you behind economy wise. You get harrassed by a banshee, and another 2ish ~ Minutes where you don't build probes. Obviously Conreik is correct that Voidrays aren't really effective against Terran, skip them for the future... You are expanding at the 16th minute mark, thats WAY too late, and just 4 gates at 16 minutes is just not really good, you need like 6-8 at that point, depends on what you're playing. You play Stalker heavvy ... You have no blink the whole game, and work on your upgrades, try to watch some pro replays and learn the timings, I guess that should be the best solution for you And get Storm, you HAVE TO switch from Collossus to storm Imagine this: you traded army's you won the ground fight, he won the Air battle, you have no Collossus left and he has like 10 Vikings left, would you restart Colossus production ? Not at that moment ! you go for storm ( you are smart, you already have templar tech at that point ! :D ). You don't build Colossus where he has superior counter to that Unit already ! (some szenarios are different of course) I think you should work on your early game: 1. Constant Probe production (even if you get harrassed) 2. More gates, skip starport ! (well i think in your case, try to get at least 3-4 gates per base, you build more as the game goes longer 3. Upgrades are really important ! Try to use them, and chrono the shit out of your forges ! 4. Btw, off-pylons are amazing for counter attacks and shutting down his expansions I guess that's it ! Good luck on ladder
Thanks for the feedback :D <3
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| NiNjAPlation United States. August 07 2012 09:33. Posts 85 | Profile # |
On August 07 2012 09:30 trolldrew wrote:
Show nested quote +On August 07 2012 04:18 NiNjAPlation wrote:
We spawn cross positions (Top Left/Bottom Right). I open up with a 3 gate robo
Imo, unless you're planning to 1 base all in, you should try a more economical build, esp since the maps in ladder r so big. Terran reinforcements are slow and it's actually pretty difficult to punish toss going for a quick expo on most maps without accidentally overcommitting.
What if the terran tries to do some sort of early MM pressure would I be able to hold it with a more economic build nexus first/1 gate expo? |
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| Shortynut Australia. August 07 2012 11:00. Posts 78 | Profile # |
On August 07 2012 09:33 NiNjAPlation wrote:
Show nested quote +On August 07 2012 09:30 trolldrew wrote:
On August 07 2012 04:18 NiNjAPlation wrote:
We spawn cross positions (Top Left/Bottom Right). I open up with a 3 gate robo
Imo, unless you're planning to 1 base all in, you should try a more economical build, esp since the maps in ladder r so big. Terran reinforcements are slow and it's actually pretty difficult to punish toss going for a quick expo on most maps without accidentally overcommitting.
What if the terran tries to do some sort of early MM pressure would I be able to hold it with a more economic build nexus first/1 gate expo?
If you scout early MM pressure; and by that i mean as small as a marauder and 2 marines; he's also doing an economic build. The best way I've seen protoss counter my early expand pressure is stalkers and sentries, not in mass though. In my experience, that pressure is simply to force the protoss into defending rather than macroing. So in the time that you pull probes or micro stalkers around marines to kill it, u r losing production (this is shown in ur replay when your are hit by a banshee and your units halt for several minutes, especially probes!!!) So, if you want to hold off the pressures of an early Terran, take from the guy who was warned for saying "protoss late game ezpz" and focus on NOT losing production time.
Heres a thought: When you are playing an econ game, Chrono is like the key to going from "how the **** do i hold this single banshee" to "pfft i already have stalkers out to hold this what are you trying".
THE REASON: Because in 6 minutes (off 1nexus) you can have more than 35 probes through constant chrono; in 8 minutes u can have 50+ probes (this is an ideal situation, given that you keep probes and chrono coming non-stop). This sort of probe count puts your econ into overdrive, and all the while the Terran is (more than likely) trying to get his 2bases going AND preparing a timing attack, all the things which you are already ready economically to deal with. If he's going 3 bases, hit with a 2base timing or go for your third.
Now think about the probes you have and the economy it brings. You can support gateways, robos, double upgrades, the works and thats on 2 bases. For my last piece of input; and as a Terran player I can say hoenstly that I have experienced this in 90% of my TvP games. Get to 4 bases, it becomes increasingly difficult to trade effectively and macro against the Protoss army at that stage of the game because Protoss late game units on their own trade INSANELY well with upgrades. The worst part for a terran is that in the middle of a 4 base fight, a single proxy pylon nearby can literally keep the Terran outnumbered. Proper scouting can hold drops with a single warp in at the right time and place, the Koreans have shown that. |
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| Whitewing United States. August 07 2012 11:05. Posts 5709 | Profile # |
On August 07 2012 09:33 NiNjAPlation wrote:
Show nested quote +On August 07 2012 09:30 trolldrew wrote:
On August 07 2012 04:18 NiNjAPlation wrote:
We spawn cross positions (Top Left/Bottom Right). I open up with a 3 gate robo
Imo, unless you're planning to 1 base all in, you should try a more economical build, esp since the maps in ladder r so big. Terran reinforcements are slow and it's actually pretty difficult to punish toss going for a quick expo on most maps without accidentally overcommitting.
What if the terran tries to do some sort of early MM pressure would I be able to hold it with a more economic build nexus first/1 gate expo?
If you macro and micro well, yes, quite easily. Generally against a 2 rax your 2nd and 3rd warp gate are finishing up right around the time the attack comes, and with warp ins off of 3 gateways, you can very easiliy hold an aggressive 2 rax with a one-gate expand. If you have to pull probes to make sure you don't die, do it. |
| | ThorZaIN is an android sent from the future to destroy everyone and everything with his super advanced mechanics and strategies. ~Chill |
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 Wombat_NI Northern Ireland. August 07 2012 14:21. Posts 5145 | Profile # |
More general advice, as you move up the leagues want to open as greedily as you can without exposing yourself to dying from allins and the like.
3 gate into Robo into expand in my view is just too safe an opening and will put you quite a bit behind when it comes to the lategame. I personally favour MC's 1 Gate expands as they give you a bit more safety than builds such as Nexus first or Huks 20 food Nexus, plus it gives a chance to gain some information with a scouting poke.
MC's 1 Gate FE
This guide and opening turned my PvT from my worst matchup to my best by far, to the extent my clan send me out to snipe Terrans. It's really solid and lets you work on all the elements of your game, and is pretty flexible and adaptable.
Your obs timing also won't be massively different from going 3 gate Robo before expanding anyway, so you don't even have a big period of being totally in the dark between doing the zealot/stalker poke, and your obs hitting his front.Last edit: 2012-08-07 14:25:14 |
| | 'You'll always be the cuddly marsupial of my heart, despite the inherent flaws of your ancestry' - McBengt Also anyone with any questions or desires to help the Irish scene, PM me! |
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| NiNjAPlation United States. August 07 2012 15:29. Posts 85 | Profile # |
On August 07 2012 14:21 Wombat_NI wrote:More general advice, as you move up the leagues want to open as greedily as you can without exposing yourself to dying from allins and the like. 3 gate into Robo into expand in my view is just too safe an opening and will put you quite a bit behind when it comes to the lategame. I personally favour MC's 1 Gate expands as they give you a bit more safety than builds such as Nexus first or Huks 20 food Nexus, plus it gives a chance to gain some information with a scouting poke. MC's 1 Gate FEThis guide and opening turned my PvT from my worst matchup to my best by far, to the extent my clan send me out to snipe Terrans. It's really solid and lets you work on all the elements of your game, and is pretty flexible and adaptable. Your obs timing also won't be massively different from going 3 gate Robo before expanding anyway, so you don't even have a big period of being totally in the dark between doing the zealot/stalker poke, and your obs hitting his front.
Is this safe on smaller maps vs early terran pressure. Also how does this fair against a Terran who is doing some sort 1/1/1 allin? |
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 stardin Israel. August 07 2012 15:56. Posts 88 | Profile # |
I agree with what NexCa said.
I think on the early game your biggest mistakes were:
1. When you were on 2 bases you should've chrono'd out probes and have a massive worker lead, you had 25 where you should've had atleast 40. You just stopped making probes. Keep production up.
2. You should have a forge earlier, ~after starting colossus production, and get that +1 armor asap.
3. Stargate is in 95% of the cases a pretty wrong choice against terran, you should instead get a twilight council and get charge asap(in most cases. In some blink is better but thats a rare minority in plat imo).
Late game:
1. On the 20 minute mark you should be atleast on 10 - 12 gateways not on 3  this made it very hard to replenish your army, which gave your opponent a huge supply lead. Also you spent way too many resources on void rays which are kinda useless against terran.
2. Your probe count was at ~50 while your opponent's was ~60 with mules, which put you behind the entire game while your opponent was banking tons of resources.
3. Carriers are just as useless as voidrays in PvT, especially when your opponent has a high viking count.
4. Opponent was leading a lot in upgrades.
*****
Advice: Watch many pro streams / replays and learn how they open, how they approach late game, which unit compositions they choose, and build orders.
Good luck
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| Wombat_NI Northern Ireland. August 07 2012 16:21. Posts 5145 | Profile # |
@ NiNjAPlation
I've personally found it pretty safe against pretty much all the standard forms of Terran aggression, I struggle with weird Marauder/Hellion/SCV pull pressures that my friend uses but that's about it. I held a friend's proxy rax bunker rush the other day because the timings work out quite well for adaptation. For example, in this instance, on Ohana vs my 1100 masters Terran friend, the gate scout spotted something was amiss, I delayed putting down the nexus and instead added a second gate and saved chrono to hold.
Another adaptation you can make on 2 player maps especially is when you scout with your initial probe, and later zealot/stalker followup, if you see them cutting corners such as delaying their bunker you can throw down additional gates. I enjoy a 3 gate, non commital stalker aggression in such situations, but equally you can delay throwing down the nexus further, go up to an old-school 4 gate and sometimes kill your opponent outright.
I'd post replays but sadly can't access my folder at the minute as the latest patch has removed the ability for me to run the client to locate them!
I also just find it better practice to cut as many corners as you can and to play as economically as you can in lower leagues. Firstly it pushes you to get the most out of your units, your micro etc will improve, but secondly as I have found, the 'safe' openings that serve you well quickly become next to useless against good players who play greedily. As an example, I pretty much mastered the old 3 gate expand style vs Zerg, but in today's metagame, with the increased map sizes etc
Against 1/1/1s and whatnot, the secret to beating them is quite counter-intuitive, i.e the earlier you expand the more prepared you will be to hold off those pushes as you have the requisite economy to pump out the necessary counters. In my experience, (and iirc the general community consensus i)s that 3 gate expands or 3 gates-robo-expands are good at holding old-school builds like 3 raxes which are out of fashion and not particularly common anymore, but give you too low eco to deal with 1/1/1s optimally.Last edit: 2012-08-07 16:22:01 |
| | 'You'll always be the cuddly marsupial of my heart, despite the inherent flaws of your ancestry' - McBengt Also anyone with any questions or desires to help the Irish scene, PM me! |
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| ZeNd0kUn United States. August 07 2012 16:33. Posts 320 | Profile # |
You lost because you were passive. You did not attack or even scout how many more bases he made. You were literally sitting on your structures till you maxed and yet you still did not attack you only defended the Terran's attacks. You did move out once to take down a mining base of his but I think that was like at 36 minutes or something.
You lost because your macro was not as good as the Terran's. Basically he took more bases he took them earlier, made more workers and always had a bigger bank than you most of the game. He actually lost all the earlier army vs army engagements and yet was still able to max out again each time due to the fact that he had better income and you were passive which gave him time to easily do so.
You needed to get blink, get 3,3,3 upgrades given the time the game went on and you should have denied his latest expos or destroyed them. At the very least you should have scouted the top right expos or all the potential expos he would have expanded to and send some zealots or warp prisms etc there. You could have made high templars storm both marines and vikings which were the only 2 main units he massed. Yeah at the very end he made some BCs but throughout the game he was pumping out only marines and vikings most of the time.
The advice he gave you after you BMed or whined at the end was pretty much correct. To win against a Terran you either destroy his income by denying him expansions or destroying his eco or kill his army and destroy his production facilities. You failed to attack or even counter attack and in the end it was you who lost eco and army as he marched to destroy your last 2 mining bases which you made far away from your main base and natural where your army sat most of the game.
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| stardin Israel. August 07 2012 20:00. Posts 88 | Profile # |
You lost because you were passive. You did not attack or even scout how many more bases he made. You were literally sitting on your structures till you maxed and yet you still did not attack you only defended the Terran's attacks. You did move out once to take down a mining base of his but I think that was like at 36 minutes or something.
You lost because your macro was not as good as the Terran's. Basically he took more bases he took them earlier, made more workers and always had a bigger bank than you most of the game. He actually lost all the earlier army vs army engagements and yet was still able to max out again each time due to the fact that he had better income and you were passive which gave him time to easily do so.
You needed to get blink, get 3,3,3 upgrades given the time the game went on and you should have denied his latest expos or destroyed them. At the very least you should have scouted the top right expos or all the potential expos he would have expanded to and send some zealots or warp prisms etc there. You could have made high templars storm both marines and vikings which were the only 2 main units he massed. Yeah at the very end he made some BCs but throughout the game he was pumping out only marines and vikings most of the time.
The advice he gave you after you BMed or whined at the end was pretty much correct. To win against a Terran you either destroy his income by denying him expansions or destroying his eco or kill his army and destroy his production facilities. You failed to attack or even counter attack and in the end it was you who lost eco and army as he marched to destroy your last 2 mining bases which you made far away from your main base and natural where your army sat most of the game.
Bash some moar
User was warned for this post |
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| rEalGuapo Germany. August 07 2012 20:13. Posts 761 | Profile # |
Honestly, I don't think the opening should concern you yet.
You just want a general idea of Unit compositions and the buildings you need to get there.
for each base you want 3 or 4 Ways to spend. A Gateway is one way, a Forge is half a Robo/Stargate is one.
3 ways if you want to keep up the worker Production and expand.
4 if you are going all-in soon.
Keep that general idea in mind.
Now, what you want to practice really hard is not to miss workers. After every game, watch the replay, only look at your Nexi and try to get a feel for the times you stop worker production. Then next game, focus on not skipping workers then.
Do that for 20-30 games and you should be doing way better.
Probes&Pylons ftw.
Your game now can go like this:
2Gate + Robo -> Expansion with 1 or 2 Immortals.
add 3 Gates add a Forge add Robo Bay.
-> Expand once more, add 2end Forge add 4 more gates, tech to Templars.
Just get a vague basic idea of what you want to do and then do it over and over again just focusing on your macro!
GL & HF
Edit:
Whenever I started practising I would write down the exact openings of different builds for all the match ups and try to follow them perfectly. After losing 20-30 games simply because I was so obsessed with the perfect openings I would get frustrated and hate the game. This resulted in me taking week or month long breaks all the time.
Now I just got vague ideas and I am happily bashing my way up the Master league.
___
If this is not what you are looking for, Lategame vs T you want a lot of Chargelots, a handfull (8-12) of Blinkstalkers a couple Colossi, Templar and Observers.
But I think your problem is 100% how to get to lategame not what to do then.Last edit: 2012-08-07 20:42:12 |
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| NiNjAPlation United States. August 08 2012 01:20. Posts 85 | Profile # |
| Thanks for all the advice :D <3 |
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| NiNjAPlation United States. August 08 2012 03:06. Posts 85 | Profile # |
So i tried it out vs an ai just to get a feel for the build, i have a replay here, so would this be the general idea of the build?
http://drop.sc/235114 |
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| NiNjAPlation United States. August 08 2012 03:25. Posts 85 | Profile # |
What about this? I did the mc 1 gate build held a proxy barracks with marauders concussive shell and then a little while later he just pushes and wins.
http://drop.sc/235124Last edit: 2012-08-08 03:26:30 |
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| Wombat_NI Northern Ireland. August 09 2012 08:32. Posts 5145 | Profile # |
On August 08 2012 03:25 NiNjAPlation wrote:What about this? I did the mc 1 gate build held a proxy barracks with marauders concussive shell and then a little while later he just pushes and wins. http://drop.sc/235124
My SC is currently not working so I can't check it right now, but PM me and I'll be happy to have a look |
| | 'You'll always be the cuddly marsupial of my heart, despite the inherent flaws of your ancestry' - McBengt Also anyone with any questions or desires to help the Irish scene, PM me! |
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