Website Feedback
Closed Threads
IRC Chat
irc.quakenet.org #teamliquid
IRC Web ClientTeamSpeak 3 (98 users) | |
|
| EveningStar August 08 2012 01:32. Posts 28 | Profile # |
How do you play this matchup? Let´s say on a map with "standard" ramps down from the mains.
What are your favorite strategies and tactics, tricks and thought processes?
Sometimes we own with ling vult or "zerg contains one protoss terr goes other, zerg runs to other as well and we destory him". But yesterday we got schooled.
What´s a zerg opening and base layout that gives best and most cost effective defense against lotsx2 coming just before vultures are out?
What are the best options for a mid / lategame where sair easily deflects mutalisks and two protosses seem to easily owerpower a terran and a low-economy zerg?Last edit: 2012-08-08 01:34:43 |
|
|
| FlaShFTW United States. August 08 2012 01:54. Posts 4957 | Profile Blog # |
ok you guys should win every single time. any team with Z in it beats any team without Z in it. They'll probs go with maybe a gate/forge or 2 gate at the top of their ramp (lets just take a map like python for example)
Terrans should make a zealot tight wall, this would force protoss to concentrate on zerg. unfortunately, zerg is pretty weak to a x2 lot attack, so terran is gonna need to counter attack or help immediately.
zerg builds usually vary from a 9pool speed, 10 hatch, 9/9/9 (9 hatch, 9 pool, 9 gas) or even just a standard overpool. just make sure you scout them and where their zealots are at all times so you know when to start sunkens in your main. as for the base layout, try to make those tight walls with the mineral/pool/gas style. then nestle in a sunken or 2 behind that (one underneath the gas, one underneath the pool but not mannering your minerals.
once deflected, terran needs to start laying mines everywhere to take map control while both of you expo. since double p rapes mutas, hydra/lurk is a good combo. terran should try getting tanks and denying the natural lurker contain is also good. |
| | Never Surrender. Never GG. Always Fighting. BW4LYF. Woo Jung Ho Never Forget. |
|
|
| Bill Murray United States. August 08 2012 01:58. Posts 7055 | Profile Blog # |
zerg 2 hatchery lings (upgraded, speed first before lair) into mutalisk off at least 2 gas (sucks you can't give your ally gas like in SC2)
Protoss 3 gate dragoon, willingness to add a 4th gate. If you secure a fight cutting them off from their ally, but can't kill one (don't fight up their ramp, prevent expos with lings, etc) then the Protoss should expand, unless they are going Corsair, in which case I feel it more wise for the Zerg to expand.
Z should add scourge in that case, 1.5-2 per corsair. You need to be committed to ruling the skies with a potential guardian transition + your obvious hydralisk [and then lurkers if neither one is robo
-in which case, you will see reavers, trust me
- if they are ht + gateway units early queen+tank, halfmap, zerg still needs to control air so add plague + valks if they transition to carrier
- if they are both going gateway units you might not need to transition to hydras if your ling upgrades are ahead
The late game you need to consider the map architecture
You must find the right places to fight
Are there island expos? You will want to use your air superiority to deny, or hold them.
You can hold a 4th base there. With your 2 gas you just need to get microable units (defiler if you have potential to lose the skies, or have had to have gone lurkers vs them both making zealots all game)
The Terran needs to go valkyries if they Carrier en masse. This seems counter-intuitive, but plague+valkyries, to reiterate, absolutely can melt protoss air via plague and valks raping shields. I hope that helps.
Do you notice how I'm not even addressing Corsairs? If you are losing to a Protoss stuck on one base making Corsairs, all you need is to add a few hydra + spore at each base. 1 spore per base for detection vs 2 Protoss..... DTs?...
|
| | University of Kentucky Basketball #1 |
|
|
| Bill Murray United States. August 08 2012 02:02. Posts 7055 | Profile Blog # |
On August 08 2012 01:54 FlaShFTW wrote:
ok you guys should win every single time. any team with Z in it beats any team without Z in it. They'll probs go with maybe a gate/forge or 2 gate at the top of their ramp (lets just take a map like python for example)
Terrans should make a zealot tight wall, this would force protoss to concentrate on zerg. unfortunately, zerg is pretty weak to a x2 lot attack, so terran is gonna need to counter attack or help immediately.
zerg builds usually vary from a 9pool speed, 10 hatch, 9/9/9 (9 hatch, 9 pool, 9 gas) or even just a standard overpool.
I disagree with this
It is very easy to 9 hatch, 10 hatch, 12 hatch.. preferably 12 hatch/11 pool
-make 8 lings + 1-2 sunkens early if heavy pressure
-make the standard 4 lings if they are teching and neither is 2 gating
-make 6-8 lings + 1 sunken if one is 2 gating... be willing to send a drone/scv to scout to see if it's the 3 zealot 3 probe timing
a. if it's the 3 zealot 3 probe timing
add another sunken, stop drone production, possibly pull a few drones if youre bad at micro
b. if it is 2 zealots held on ramp
cancel sunken, keep a ling to know when to add lings/colonies/etc
very easy to 12 hatch vs PP
|
| | University of Kentucky Basketball #1 |
|
|
| Bill Murray United States. August 08 2012 02:07. Posts 7055 | Profile Blog # |
I believe you edited this in:
What´s a zerg opening and base layout that gives best and most cost effective defense against lotsx2 coming just before vultures are out?
I disagree the Terran should be going vultures
Wall + Siege Tanks before 3rd..... a few vultures are ok for mines... think of how Fantasy plays vs P, and puts them defensively to protect against DT
If you're intent on making vults, and killing the mineral line... like do you not realize you need to be able to ling vs zealot ? |
| | University of Kentucky Basketball #1 |
|
|
| FlaShFTW United States. August 08 2012 04:17. Posts 4957 | Profile Blog # |
On August 08 2012 02:07 Bill Murray wrote:
I believe you edited this in:
What´s a zerg opening and base layout that gives best and most cost effective defense against lotsx2 coming just before vultures are out?
I disagree the Terran should be going vultures
Wall + Siege Tanks before 3rd..... a few vultures are ok for mines... think of how Fantasy plays vs P, and puts them defensively to protect against DT
If you're intent on making vults, and killing the mineral line... like do you not realize you need to be able to ling vs zealot ?
well think about it. 2 fact vult basic goals are to obtain map control and kite lower tier units. vultures vs early zealots? easy. then you can transition into more of a standard mech play. |
| | Never Surrender. Never GG. Always Fighting. BW4LYF. Woo Jung Ho Never Forget. |
|
|
| EveningStar August 08 2012 08:20. Posts 28 | Profile # |
Yeah -
Seems it was my 12p with gas before hatch @ ledge that fucked me up. Gives a really awkward timing for a sunken on the creep from the second hatch. 9h should work much better if one want a colony above the ramp.
What´s the thinking around when it is good to put the second hatch by ramp versus just by the first?
Thanks for the input btw :D |
|
|
| Zariel Australia. August 08 2012 09:35. Posts 958 | Profile Blog # |
From the terran perspective, you would want to go 2 fact vults as mentioned to get map control so you and your zerg can secure your naturals and eliminate the early zealot threat. After about 6-8 vultures you should be alrite to take your natural and start tanks + siege mode (you should have gas banked up).
You would want to also get a dropship (or some kind of escort) at least 2 tanks to the zerg to help him defend during a mid game push from the 2 protoss players, donate more tanks to the zerg depending on the pressure. This will also allow you to take the island expos on Python.
Beauty of having a Z as a T is your ally can send an overlord over the ramp of your base and you can save on the ebay against DTs. |
| |
|
| Metal[x] China. August 08 2012 12:26. Posts 5314 | Profile Blog # |
| Terran should be playing off of 2-3 fact speed if you intend on breaking a ramp or just mines first if you just want map control until they have obs. Then expo + siege and play from there. Zerg should be going 2h ling into slow muta tech, if sairs can either go 3h hydra w/ expo or just scourge to pick off sair while droning and getting expo. |
|
|
| Bill Murray United States. August 08 2012 13:57. Posts 7055 | Profile Blog # |
i dont see the need for vult if your ally is going lings
i would rather my partner be going 3 rax or 2 fact siege
even academy + 2 starport and pick off observers (if they even make them...) with cloaked wraiths so funny |
| | University of Kentucky Basketball #1 |
|
|
| stink123 United States. August 08 2012 15:59. Posts 175 | Profile # |
bio for terran is pretty much the best strategy, while zerg goes speedlings => muta. This is because PP will do 1 gate tech => mass goon/obs + 2 gate. (Also possible for 3/4 gate zealot allin) PP basically needs to kill the zerg before terran bio is up. Depending on rush distance, you may or may not be able to 10 hatch, if not and you may need to cut some lings to build an extra sunken. You always need at least 1 sunken though. The setup should be something like,
----------Extractor
Pool --Sunken (Not flush with Extractor, needs one space for gas mining)
----------Hatchery
The idea is that your sunken is protected(without blocking gas), and you can pull drones to help defend. You can also add an evolution chamber if you need extra defense. In any case, after you get at least 9 drones mining minerals/gas, you should pump pure speedlings until mutas are out scourge if you need to stop corsairs. If he has too many corsairs just keep pumping scourge + lings with minimal muta. Get a spore colony if you need it. (The evo chamber can be used to wall as well)
What you want to happen is this:
1. Speedlings control the map until stim+medics are out
2. mnm + speedling hold map until mutas are finished
3. mutas keep protoss on one base, maybe force corsair.
4. mnm + mutaling destroys protoss composition.
Protoss needs tech vs MnM like reavers or storm, but mutas force dragoons so they won't have enough gas. However, dragoons are pretty weak vs mass lings, although they are pretty even when well micro'd with goon range.
Important things to note:
1. Terran needs to scout with scv, preferably before building barracks.
2. Send second overlord to terran ally in case of dt's.
3. Terran needs to control his army well, don't let marines get picked off by dragoons. Zerg can help by surrounding/flanking goons.
4. Never engage with mutalisks unless you are 100% sure you can crush them. Only harass and force cannons.
5. Kill corsairs by sending scourge from unexpected angles, or multiple angles. Also, you will have more mutas than corsairs, so you can win sometimes by not stacking mutas or running the focused muta away. And remember, corsairs are useless against the terran army.
5. Never let the protoss expand. Their 2 base will be a lot stronger and synergize better than zerg+ terran. Either kill his partner or kill his expansion. Whatever you do, you need to remove one of their bases. If for some reason this happens, Terran can try dropping while zerg turtles with mass sunken (6-8 sunkens with evo chamber wall) and harasses with mass muta. Basically in this scenario you must outmicro your opponents very well to win. Zerg is really weak without multiple bases, and terran must rely on bio, or marine/tank to win.
6. The terran partner needs to be ready to build extra bukers/pull scvs in case protoss try to bust him. It shouldn't work, but sometimes a terran player gets too confident and allows this to happen. |
|
|
| Dead9 United States. August 08 2012 16:41. Posts 2323 | Profile Blog # |
bio on the terran isn't as good as mech
it's very easy for a PP team to hold marine+ling if they scout it coming, and once they tech up bio units are pretty much worthless
it doesn't matter if the Ps expo as long as you keep up; TZ unit composition is much, much stronger than PP, especially since PP has to go down so many tech trees to deal with everything
generally just open 2fact mines on the terran, 2hat speedling -> muta on the zerg
have T expo and get siege once you get some mines up
ramp up to 6fact and win
pretty much the most dangerous thing you have to watch out for is a huge break off double 1base (think a super bulldog) |
| |
|
| FlaShFTW United States. August 08 2012 16:57. Posts 4957 | Profile Blog # |
2/3 fact vult>bio anyday. bio is only good in some scenarios like if double zerg or something.
id suggest a 2hatch spire fake out into 3 hatch hydras. p can easily rape mutas with sairs, and you can force them to make some with a few mutas. |
| | Never Surrender. Never GG. Always Fighting. BW4LYF. Woo Jung Ho Never Forget. |
|
|
| Dead9 United States. August 08 2012 17:11. Posts 2323 | Profile Blog # |
if P is making sairs he's not making things that hit ground, and even against sairs mutas grant a lot of map control
eventually you'll probably want to swap to hydras, but making a control group or so of mutas will force a bunch of stuff |
| |
|
| Mortality United States. August 10 2012 08:29. Posts 4790 | Profile Blog # |
On August 08 2012 08:20 EveningStar wrote:
Yeah -
Seems it was my 12p with gas before hatch @ ledge that fucked me up. Gives a really awkward timing for a sunken on the creep from the second hatch. 9h should work much better if one want a colony above the ramp.
What´s the thinking around when it is good to put the second hatch by ramp versus just by the first?
Thanks for the input btw :D
Personally I'd suggest 12 hatch at nat with Terran doing a 2 rax opening over 12 hatch at your ramp. THe latter is "safer" but will fail to give you midgame macro power. Scout thoroughly to get a read on their zeal counts. If they both pressure Zerg, Terran should send marine + SCV asap to help. If one pressures Zerg and the other techs, Zerg should be able to handle it on his own. If the one teching sends 1-2 zeal to help apply pressure, Terran can commit a few marines to helping. If one of them techs hard while the other goes zeal, both of you should focus on the one with tech basically as soon as ling speed is up. Properly executed bio + ling is a nightmare for a Protoss who techs. If both of them tech, or if one of them does FE, cancel Terran should cancel the second barracks and tech factory asap.
The most important thing is coordination. In terms of your build, it doesn't matter so much as long as your partner is correctly coordinating with you. However, I do think 12p gas before hatch (not even at expo) is about the worst choice imaginable. While 12 hatch main is viable, any other build should put the second hatch at your nat, otherwise you are going to be economically behind all the other players due to using larva for units, not just drones. If you want to 12p, I'd recommend doing it the old school 12p -> 3 hatch way. Personally, I often use overpool into 3 hatch when I'm Zerg in 2v2. The timings might be a bit different, but as long as my partner coordinates with me it's okay.
Edit: as for those saying bio isn't as good as mech, I disagree. While late game that may be true, early game it will give you a lot of flexibility and lot of ability to attack. Vult + ling isn't as good at breaking up a ramp as bio + ling. Basically, the purpose of early vults is to limit his offensive options, but due to needing factory tech, it comes out a bit slow and your partner can end up taking a lot of damage without the guarantee that you can properly retaliate. I'm not saying it's a bad choice and I frequently use it (especially if my hands are a bit rusty -- if I played a game today I'd rather use vults), but IMO, a bio into mech transition is the smarter choice.Last edit: 2012-08-10 08:35:25 |
| | Even though this Proleague bullshit has been completely bogus, I really, really, really do not see how Khan can lose this. I swear I will kill myself if they do. - nesix before KHAN lost to eNature |
|
|
| Bill Murray United States. August 10 2012 10:57. Posts 7055 | Profile Blog # |
^To add to that, if Terran is going Bio, consider making 1st/2nd rax at zerg nat to add a bunker/turrets with that scv
Get armor before atk upgrade if fighting marine vs dragoon (sad situation) because of it making it be 5 hits instead of 4 |
| | University of Kentucky Basketball #1 |
|
|
| Metal[x] China. August 10 2012 12:07. Posts 5314 | Profile Blog # |
| bio will give you a terrible mid-late game. it's not worth it unless you are going allin and 100% going to try to break one of their ramps. |
|
|
| Zariel Australia. August 10 2012 12:19. Posts 958 | Profile Blog # |
TBH. I don't like breaking up a P ramp when they have 2 cannons and zeals to hold with Bio+ling. Maybe because I play in Australia and I get 0.5sec keystroke delay it's god-awful to micro bio. I much prefer the slow and steady tank+vult route to end the game.
I dunno man, I get more enjoyment when I win a game using mech than bio. |
| |
|
| Mortality United States. August 10 2012 14:11. Posts 4790 | Profile Blog # |
Bleh, I'm certainly not suggesting you continue with bio into the later stages of the game. The key is the tech switch. In the early game you rely on the Terran's flexibility with bio, the midgame depends a bit on what happens early, but you'll either be relying on the Zerg having established suitable power off 2 bases to allow you to tech switch or you will rely on his muta use to make the switch. Late game you will have mech power.
Bio is being underrated vs Protoss a bit here. Reavers and high templar are the only real threat. Goons need range and zeals need speed to have any real worth vs bio, and the speedling/bio combination is hell on goons anyway. DT vs TZ bio is overrated as fuck. The Z should send his second OL to Terran's base, so even if you run out of scan you can fall back and take your expo (if they have enough dt to drive you back you know you don't have to worry about storm or reaver due to gas consumption), so unless you do something stupid like stop paying attention to your marines it's great. HT need storm before being of use. I suppose speed zeal/archon is a possiblity, but if it comes to that as the Protoss I'd rather storm.
And really... if you do get them into the situation where they are using cannon + zeal to hole up in their mains while your Zerg partner has secured his nat and is going ling/muta, you are in a damn good position.
|
| | Even though this Proleague bullshit has been completely bogus, I really, really, really do not see how Khan can lose this. I swear I will kill myself if they do. - nesix before KHAN lost to eNature |
|
|
| Metal[x] China. August 10 2012 15:17. Posts 5314 | Profile Blog # |
| yea but any PP team that is decent will negate zerg air by making sairs and they can just turtle to zealot storm dt with both taking their expo while your zerg ally can only make ground units w/ you mm. then the big protoss ball of zealot goon temp will destroy both of you since you wont have any air to snipe temps. even with your tech switch it will be behind than say going for mech from the beginning and you dont need to be an alrdy ahead toss team if they have their nats. |
|
|
| 1 2 3 Next All | |
|
|
|
| |
|
Sidebar Settings...
|
Store
