If any of you saw the game between SaSe and Coca, you know what I'm talking about. The crazy 9 pylon near mineral line early second pylon into gateway and nexus. Now I don't know much about the difference between just opening FFE and what SaSe did, but if I know one thing for certain it's that SaSe is always looking for that optimization edge. Well anyways in the first game of the set SaSe confused the hell out of poor Day[9] by going double forge 3 gate pressuring at an odd time and then expanding behind it with immortal production and a twilight council.
Now with double upgrades pouring out SaSe is in an amazing position at around the 14-15 minute mark, when Day[9] said something really insightful. SaSe had started commiting to Colossi when our friend Sean said something like "he could be a lot more aggressive if he added on more gates" (extensive paraphrasing ). Toying around with the concepts I noticed that you can step up a similiar style to CreatorPrime except with crazy upgrades and nearing max.
A massive DT, Blink Stalker, Immortal force of such immense size and with such amazing upgrades puts Zergs in an incredibly uncomfortable position when they decide to gather up for that massive hive tech switch (either Ultra-Bling a la Curious or the more common Blord Infestor combination). Forcing Zerg into making tons of roaches to stay alive (which suck late-game) and steering them clear off Hive-tech means that toss doesn't need to rely on Archon toilet shenanigans and instead changes the game into a starvation battle where Zerg desperately tries to shut down expansions while Toss flings tons of DTs in his/her bases.
Anyways discuss the validity of the SaSe opening, double forge, and the CreatorPrime-esque follow-up!
Xequecal United States. August 08 2012 09:59. Posts 380
I just don't get it.....how do armor upgrades help significantly against Zerg? In the early/midgame, the Zerg mainstay is roaches, which armor upgrades do almost nothing against.They do almost nothing for colo against corruptors. They do nothing against banelings or fungal growth. The only thing armor upgrades are really good against is broodlings, but the comments here are suggesting that SaSe is in an "amazing position" before the brood lords are even out. It doesn't make sense.
MormonWithoutACause United States. August 08 2012 10:09. Posts 94
@ Xequecal: the point is that armor upgrades help you trade incredibly well against the zerg later on. There is no specific threshold for armor upgrades that help incredibly in the early game, however as your army grows larger- and it grows significantly faster because of SaSe's opening- blink stalkers become nearly unkillable and shrug off any upgraded lings with ease. So the "point" of getting double ups is to make your later game army incredibly good at trading efficiently to help combat the low cost of roaches.
I highly suggest you watch the games between Sase and Coca in the TSL 4, he has a couple control issues in the set ( and one of the games is HIGHLY irregular) but the opening and the late game focus really makes shoving when Zerg is thinking of going hive really effective.
Balgrog United States. August 08 2012 10:10. Posts 1168
On August 08 2012 09:59 Xequecal wrote: I just don't get it.....how do armor upgrades help significantly against Zerg? In the early/midgame, the Zerg mainstay is roaches, which armor upgrades do almost nothing against.They do almost nothing for colo against corruptors. They do nothing against banelings or fungal growth. The only thing armor upgrades are really good against is broodlings, but the comments here are suggesting that SaSe is in an "amazing position" before the brood lords are even out. It doesn't make sense.
The only reason I can see armor upgrades helping significantly is a fast zealot push.
The only way to attack structure is with chaos.
MormonWithoutACause United States. August 08 2012 10:23. Posts 94
@Balgrog: Unless you have perfect blink micro and can get immortals to waddle away in time, armor upgrades always help far more than they cost. 100/100 for such an exponential advantage can actually significantly change the outcome of battles. Not to mention the fact that Protoss has the cheapest upgrades and can chronoboost them which leads to a massive upgrade discrepancy between the Zerg and Protoss army. The effect is just like powering or taking an even quicker expansion, but SaSe manages to make it look completely safe.
ineversmile United States. August 08 2012 11:07. Posts 571
@Ineversmile: Prolly but I doubt anyone has the control to impecably blink micro large groups of stalkers. Also stalkers have a natural 1 armor and sentries boost that up to three with guardian shield another reason that fast upgrades help
If you want others to watch the match you are talking about, then a link would be nice.
Having said that, the question probably comes down to "Does 2nd upgrade make enough difference to conpensate more econ for Zerg due to pressure getting delayed?" Getting 2nd forge means you don't pressure Zerg at all or as hard. Therefore, Zerg in theory can drone up harder and set up infrastructure better. If 2nd upgrade strengthen the eventual push significantly, then probably it is worth it. If the build works only because Zerg players are not used to it today, then probably it is not worth it. I am not an expert to tell which way it is. Maybe somoene good can tell us.
TechnoSchaman United States. August 08 2012 11:36. Posts 156
the 9pylon thing in base that Sase does isnt necessarily that important to this concept. The gateway before forge style thats been gaining popularity allows for earlier timings such as 3 or 4 gate aggression. Getting a second forge that early is a little risky and upgrades that fast means no sentries making this very risky if you CANT scout gas, or if you DO scout gas. But against gasless 3 base where you don't expect a baneling bust, this seems totally viable. Sase's 1-1 timing isnt REALLY that big of a deal but being on 2-2 as your third is getting up, and 3-3 that early in the game is because it makes your army so much more valuable as you enter the mid/late game with blink stalker, immortal archon. Would love to see someone implement shield though. Def gonna try this out
AgentW United States. August 08 2012 12:09. Posts 2372
IIRC, SaSe did some fairly significant damage to the third with his three gate push (delayed mining at the third and killed several drones). This was after CoCa built nearly a dozen drones, so he had little larvae to respond. I think SaSe's build here was extremely predicated on doing damage with that poke, because if CoCa sees it coming, or just decides to attack at that point (third was almost completely saturated), or doesn't drone right before the attack, SaSe's in some deep trouble, because he has lots of tech and no units.
I don't remember what kind of tech/upgrades CoCa had at this point in the game, so I don't know if he was in any position to mount an offensive immediately afterward, but I feel that SaSe's attack, despite being far from an all-in, was the major coin flip that was going to win or lose him the game.
Who's the bigger scrub, the scrub, or the scrub who loses to him?
MormonWithoutACause United States. August 08 2012 12:23. Posts 94
@AgentW: I think the reason he decides to do "A lot of tech and no units" is because of the fact that Coca's upgrades and gas were almost non-existant because speed just finished and he was still on slow roaches which both fare really poorly against sim city and zealots. It was suicide for CoCa to attack at that point. I also disagree on the amount of damage done to the third predicating the game because the damage is almost guaranteed (zergs dont get speed fast enough and if they do they did damage to themselves).
I feel that once more Protoss do this on ladder we will see a resurgence in baneling busts though...
sase took a 3rd base with basically zero units, behind his 1/1 pressure that did significant damage which it really shouldn't. He only had 2-3 gates, it hit at 8:40 or later, and it wasn't many units. But he killed some drones and wasted a lot of lings, and most importantly kept coca away from sase's 3rd.
I think far too much of that build hinges on the pressure, which won't be reliable at all.
I also disagree on the amount of damage done to the third predicating the game because the damage is almost guaranteed (zergs dont get speed fast enough and if they do they did damage to themselves).
I disagree, because it was later and weaker than the usual +1 4gate warp-in, which zergs can easily deflect if they anticipate it.
Last edit: 2012-08-08 12:26:24
MormonWithoutACause United States. August 08 2012 12:37. Posts 94
Well suppose SaSe decided to do none of the pressure. He planted the proxy pylon poached with the stalker and walked home. I firmly believe (and will test but would like it verified by someone better) that after the 3 sentry warpin ( courtesy of the early gas we took) and sim city he could hold much any pressure especially cuz another 3 gates are on the way as well as an immortal.
Alternatively something I would hope to see is more scouting of drone lines to see if pressure would be effective or not after dropping the proxy pylon. Speed hasn't finished yet and if it has you prolly should have straight up died to a baneling bust ( sorry sometimes you gotta accept that 5% blind BO loss).
That's just my 2 cents.
Last edit: 2012-08-08 12:38:08
AgentW United States. August 08 2012 12:41. Posts 2372
I think that CoCa was playing very greedily too, making so many drones with delayed tech and no static defense to be found. I think he was taken aback by SaSe pressuring him with... well... almost nothing and got unlucky with how the timing of his larvae worked out. He just didn't think SaSe would be crazy enough to do a timing that didn't make any sense.
EDIT: Greedily is a bit strong, because, once again, the attack didn't make any sense.
Last edit: 2012-08-08 12:41:58
Who's the bigger scrub, the scrub, or the scrub who loses to him?
MormonWithoutACause United States. August 08 2012 12:52. Posts 94
@AgentW: It really comes down to scouting with greedy play v.s standard play v.s unorthodox aggression. I concede the fact that the pressure was extremely situational ( and so should ALL pressure for the most part), however I believe that the infrastructure is present to take a third at a reasonable time while getting double ups.
The big broad strokes are the opening, some kind of pressure ( mis-timed for extra hilarity), fast double ups, a third and a robo, followed by a twilight council and a crazy amount of stalkers a la CreatorPrime.
It must be one of those "metagame" thing. Sase personally knew Coca's greedy style, or he judged that someone who goes hatch first probably wouldn't go aggressive early.
For that particular match, it was safe and smart play to go 2nd forge because Coca was greedy as #$%& too. It is probably one of those "Don't try this at home." build. Sase took calculated risk. For most of us who play vs strangers on ladder, I don't see this work consistently. Funnily enough, better players are more predictable. On ladder, people come attack at very random timings where you could be vulnerable with this build. Nice play by Sase though ^^
MormonWithoutACause United States. August 08 2012 13:17. Posts 94
@Orek I definately think the execution of the broad strokes of the strategy is very situational and on ladder you might even need to put that second forge at your wall so you aren't instagibed by baneling busts or perhaps delay your second forge so that you can have adequate pressure on the Zerg's third/defend your own. With that being said, I still think double upgrades are an interesting way to take advantage of the core protoss mechanic of chrono boost coupled with the already cheaper upgrades that are available.
SigmaoctanusIV United States. August 08 2012 13:35. Posts 2431
My Idea about is this, If you go Double Forge You are going to need to get more zealots for the gas requirements. Well upgraded Zealots are pretty good against roaches and I do see this being viable also. When Zerg is going heavy Ling you will need 2 forges to stay equal on upgrades since he will use 2 evo to get 1/1-2/2 very quickly.
I am Godzilla You are Japan
MormonWithoutACause United States. August 08 2012 13:48. Posts 94
I actually discussed sase's opening with a friend live while we were watching the games, and I remember saying something along the lines of 'this is one of those builds you can't use in ladder because it will drop your winrate from whatever it is now to exactly zero percent'. After giving it a quick watch again, I still stand by my point. A lot of the things he does are very unsafe. He has no means of defending his third, but apparently that's not enough - he then attacks. A simple zergling at the 3rd to spot, or any number of (almost-)speedlings and the strategy is done for. Actually, nearly anything that is not what coca did that game would have worked against this.
Store
). Toying around with the concepts I noticed that you can step up a similiar style to CreatorPrime except with crazy upgrades and nearing max. 
