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| Salv Canada. August 08 2012 22:49. Posts 2959 | Profile Blog # |
Here is the link to the replay: http://drop.sc/235477
League: Masters ~800 pts. Opponent ~1250 pts.
Basic Synopsis: I open with 1 gate tech, going for a quick citadel, two more gates for a total of three, and then a robotics facility. My opponent opened with three quick stalkers to deflect a probe in case of a 4 gate and then added an expansion. Map was Entombed Valley.
The Main Problems: From watching the replay the main problems were that my harass wasn't as aggressive as it could have been and that my blink into his main cost me six stalkers for one robotics facility when he had no support bay. Ultimately my army cost with his was relatively equal up until that point at which point my value dropped to about half of his (equal at about 1750/1750 --to-- 900/1750). I lost the game when I was trying to build up a colossi force faster than him but he attacked with his units, I force-fielded the ramp but he blinked up and targeted my colossus and I had way, way less units.
My Analysis: After watching the game four or five times I know that my harass was sub-pair, but I'm unsure how to effectively harass. My own ideas were that I could have placed my observer at his natural, and then blinked in four or five units to his main, and when he retreated his army to defend I could have blinked into his natural to try and get probes - two pronged attack.
I also think that had I harassed his army a bit more and then went home I would have been in significantly better shape. I had two colossi up, a third coming and he had yet to make one so I think I was in a good position to win had the game gone a bit longer. My problem was that he had so many stalkers compared to my army, which I chalk up to losing a large part to a silly blink-in.
Questions: What's an effective strategy for blinking in? It seems like even if you blink in six or seven units into his main you're not going to be able to take down a tech structure unless you're willing to lose stalkers. I thought of maybe blinking in four stalkers to target down probes which running in a loop motion and then blink out the other side, but I think that would be fairly susceptible to getting force-fielded and then having to blink out of it, and then I'm in his base with his army and blink is on cooldown.
The best idea I've had thus far is to simply blink in to distract him and then focusing on blinking in elsewhere because he's made another base.
Are there any suggestions for effective ways to harass? Any other major errors I made? Is this (fast expansion) just a hard opening to deal with if you open with blink? |
| | http://www.twitch.tv/Lucas_Salv_Salvatore / https://twitter.com/SWBKSalv |
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| Crying Bulgaria. August 08 2012 22:53. Posts 654 | Profile # |
I think that you should watch the PvP between MC and HerO on Cloud Kingdom Quarter or Semi's at ASUS ROG 2012.
You are gonna see the definition OF BLINKING IN |
| | Determination~ Hard Work Surpass NATURAL GENIUS! |
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| Surili United Kingdom. August 08 2012 23:13. Posts 1077 | Profile Blog # |
| Entombed is a bad map for 1 base blink play in my experience, because there is exactly one way into the main, and it is a tiny corridor via the third, which is quite easily shut down. That said, grubby was laddering yesterday and i recall a game against hasuobs on entombed (they played a few times on various maps) where grubby did a 1 base blink opening, so maybe you want to check that out on his stream vods? Sorry i can't help more :/ |
| | "It is not a mistake to have strong views, it is a mistake to have nothing else." - Andrew Weston * * * Masters Protoss on EU. | |
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| Salv Canada. August 09 2012 00:43. Posts 2959 | Profile Blog # |
On August 08 2012 22:53 Crying wrote:
I think that you should watch the PvP between MC and HerO on Cloud Kingdom Quarter or Semi's at ASUS ROG 2012.
You are gonna see the definition OF BLINKING IN
Thank you, I never got the chance to watch those so I will later on today and see if I can glean anything from them.
On August 08 2012 23:13 Surili wrote:
Entombed is a bad map for 1 base blink play in my experience, because there is exactly one way into the main, and it is a tiny corridor via the third, which is quite easily shut down. That said, grubby was laddering yesterday and i recall a game against hasuobs on entombed (they played a few times on various maps) where grubby did a 1 base blink opening, so maybe you want to check that out on his stream vods? Sorry i can't help more :/
I was watching Hasuobs' stream when that game occured actually. They both opened blink if I recall correctly so it was a bit different in terms of the type of game. I have heard that blink vs fast expansion is difficult to deal with, so I am looking for some insight on that, as well as just some general tips for blinking in.
Like I said, my main concern is that on most maps, you'll be able to blink in, and either hit a tech structure right by where you blinked or a pylon, if you go too far into the main or target anything with a high HP chances are you're going to lose probes. So I'm sure there is some sort of strategy for what is most effective, from what I can tell it seems that the best option would be to blink in to try to draw their army into their main so you can attack their natural with another small group - at least that way it's safe and you can kill some probes. |
| | http://www.twitch.tv/Lucas_Salv_Salvatore / https://twitter.com/SWBKSalv |
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| etherealfall Australia. August 09 2012 01:13. Posts 391 | Profile # |
| Try doong the build again against the same build from your opponent, but on a map that favours blink? Not all maps are equal, and so not all strategies are equal. On a map where you are trying to punish greed, you cant play mobility and utility when there just arent really any holes to exploit. |
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| ChoboDane Denmark. August 09 2012 01:20. Posts 98 | Profile # |
| Entombed Valley isnt a blink-obs map. It's a FE/phoenix/blink-allin/Immortal-Colossus-4g-allin map. |
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| Salv Canada. August 09 2012 01:35. Posts 2959 | Profile Blog # |
On August 09 2012 01:13 etherealfall wrote:
Try doong the build again against the same build from your opponent, but on a map that favours blink? Not all maps are equal, and so not all strategies are equal. On a map where you are trying to punish greed, you cant play mobility and utility when there just arent really any holes to exploit.
On August 09 2012 01:20 ChoboDane wrote:
Entombed Valley isnt a blink-obs map. It's a FE/phoenix/blink-allin/Immortal-Colossus-4g-allin map.
I appreciate the advice but can you explain why Entombed Valley is a poor map to use blink on? From what I understand, wouldn't a map like Antiga Shipyard yield the same result? If I blinked in on Antiga and they retreated their army to engage mine, I might be able to stay inside their main for one to two seconds more as opposed to Entombed, but I fail to see why that would be the difference between a map viable for blink and a map nonviable for blink.
It seems to me that the same problem would arise, you cannot stay in their main long enough to do significant damage, therefore it seems the strategy of blinking in, attacking something, blinking out is insignificant. What I'm trying to say is, regardless if I could have blinked into his main from 360 degrees around his base or simply that one spot, he had not defended it so I was able to blink in but even still I could not do significant damage before his army got there, so there must be a strategy or technique I am missing.
I'm also looking for just general blink advice. Thank you however. |
| | http://www.twitch.tv/Lucas_Salv_Salvatore / https://twitter.com/SWBKSalv |
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| Whitewing United States. August 09 2012 01:45. Posts 5724 | Profile # |
On August 09 2012 01:35 Salv wrote:
Show nested quote +On August 09 2012 01:13 etherealfall wrote:
Try doong the build again against the same build from your opponent, but on a map that favours blink? Not all maps are equal, and so not all strategies are equal. On a map where you are trying to punish greed, you cant play mobility and utility when there just arent really any holes to exploit.
Show nested quote +On August 09 2012 01:20 ChoboDane wrote:
Entombed Valley isnt a blink-obs map. It's a FE/phoenix/blink-allin/Immortal-Colossus-4g-allin map.
I appreciate the advice but can you explain why Entombed Valley is a poor map to use blink on? From what I understand, wouldn't a map like Antiga Shipyard yield the same result? If I blinked in on Antiga and they retreated their army to engage mine, I might be able to stay inside their main for one to two seconds more as opposed to Entombed, but I fail to see why that would be the difference between a map viable for blink and a map nonviable for blink. It seems to me that the same problem would arise, you cannot stay in their main long enough to do significant damage, therefore it seems the strategy of blinking in, attacking something, blinking out is insignificant. What I'm trying to say is, regardless if I could have blinked into his main from 360 degrees around his base or simply that one spot, he had not defended it so I was able to blink in but even still I could not do significant damage before his army got there, so there must be a strategy or technique I am missing. I'm also looking for just general blink advice. Thank you however.
It's a bad blink/obs map because the distance for the defender between the natural and the main is shorter than the distance for the attacker between points where you can be aggressive (natural to the back of the third). Antiga Shipyard, on the other hand, has a much further distance to move to defend than the attacker has to be aggressive, since it's only a short distance to the natural ramp and blinking into the main. In other words, on Antiga, by having your army outside the main, you are threatening both the natural and main at the same time with blink. On Entombed, you can only threaten one of the two at a time because of how far you have to travel to get to the other location. He can defend on Entombed pretty easily against blink by positioning a good portion of his army near the top of his main ramp, and his army will be there pretty much no matter where you go to attack. |
| | ThorZaIN is an android sent from the future to destroy everyone and everything with his super advanced mechanics and strategies. ~Chill |
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| ChoboDane Denmark. August 09 2012 01:49. Posts 98 | Profile # |
On August 09 2012 01:35 Salv wrote:
Show nested quote +On August 09 2012 01:13 etherealfall wrote:
Try doong the build again against the same build from your opponent, but on a map that favours blink? Not all maps are equal, and so not all strategies are equal. On a map where you are trying to punish greed, you cant play mobility and utility when there just arent really any holes to exploit.
Show nested quote +On August 09 2012 01:20 ChoboDane wrote:
Entombed Valley isnt a blink-obs map. It's a FE/phoenix/blink-allin/Immortal-Colossus-4g-allin map.
I appreciate the advice but can you explain why Entombed Valley is a poor map to use blink on? From what I understand, wouldn't a map like Antiga Shipyard yield the same result? If I blinked in on Antiga and they retreated their army to engage mine, I might be able to stay inside their main for one to two seconds more as opposed to Entombed, but I fail to see why that would be the difference between a map viable for blink and a map nonviable for blink. It seems to me that the same problem would arise, you cannot stay in their main long enough to do significant damage, therefore it seems the strategy of blinking in, attacking something, blinking out is insignificant. What I'm trying to say is, regardless if I could have blinked into his main from 360 degrees around his base or simply that one spot, he had not defended it so I was able to blink in but even still I could not do significant damage before his army got there, so there must be a strategy or technique I am missing. I'm also looking for just general blink advice. Thank you however.
On Entombed Valley, you can only blink in from the third's position with a few stalkers at the time and from the front, which means it's very easy for the defender to be in position and even if you catch him out of position you will have fewer seconds in his main and a harder time getting out than on for instance Antiga. Playing aggressive blink-obs is a game of miliseconds and precise positioning.
^Last edit: 2012-08-09 01:49:18 |
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 turdburgler England. August 09 2012 02:05. Posts 4662 | Profile Blog # |
| in terms of ideas for harrasment with this fast blink vs expansion play. what i noticed hero would do sometimes is only send in 2ish stalkers, enough to cause damage to a probe line but the defender has to commit 4+ stalkers to stop it, because even with very minimal blink control a stalker just cant kill a stalker before it can blink out again, meaning you can attack in the front and focus your blink control there. |
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| tehemperorer United States. August 09 2012 02:22. Posts 2180 | Profile Blog # |
On August 09 2012 01:35 Salv wrote:
Show nested quote +On August 09 2012 01:13 etherealfall wrote:
Try doong the build again against the same build from your opponent, but on a map that favours blink? Not all maps are equal, and so not all strategies are equal. On a map where you are trying to punish greed, you cant play mobility and utility when there just arent really any holes to exploit.
Show nested quote +On August 09 2012 01:20 ChoboDane wrote:
Entombed Valley isnt a blink-obs map. It's a FE/phoenix/blink-allin/Immortal-Colossus-4g-allin map.
I appreciate the advice but can you explain why Entombed Valley is a poor map to use blink on? From what I understand, wouldn't a map like Antiga Shipyard yield the same result? If I blinked in on Antiga and they retreated their army to engage mine, I might be able to stay inside their main for one to two seconds more as opposed to Entombed, but I fail to see why that would be the difference between a map viable for blink and a map nonviable for blink. It seems to me that the same problem would arise, you cannot stay in their main long enough to do significant damage, therefore it seems the strategy of blinking in, attacking something, blinking out is insignificant. What I'm trying to say is, regardless if I could have blinked into his main from 360 degrees around his base or simply that one spot, he had not defended it so I was able to blink in but even still I could not do significant damage before his army got there, so there must be a strategy or technique I am missing. I'm also looking for just general blink advice. Thank you however.
Antiga and Entombed are completely different for blink obs play, so here's the blink advice.
The basic idea for how effective blink/obs harass is on a map is determined by a few things.
1. How much of the low ground around the base perimeter is pathable
2. How many ways/directions into the main there are
3. What direction the mineral line is in relation to the blink up vector in comparison to the normal walking vector
4. The directional placement of the main ramp and its proximity to blink access.
These all combine to add up to a blink efficiency score, if you will. In the case of Antiga vs Entombed, here are the values:
Antiga:
- Lots of low ground room around the base to move stalkers.
- About 3 ways up into main: from natural, from just below the ramp to natural, and from the back edge of the base
- All blink up vectors point straight to minerals, while the only normal walking vector coincides with just one blink up path (the blink from the natural up)
- The main ramp faces toward the edges of the map, meaning any units in the natural will most likely have to path around the ramp doodad to go up it. The main ramp is also only near 1 blink up spot.
Entombed Valley:
- About half the blinkable perimeter Antiga has
- About two blink locations into the main: one right near ramp, the other behind minerals to natural
- Biggest strike against blink obs on Entombed: For the one walking vector, the mineral line is straight up the ramp. For both blink vectors, the mineral line is straight up the ramp. This means that if you blink into the main at either blink location, the defender's army will come in the same way, and more importantly, you have to go out the same way. That will net a few losses. The blink paths are the same as the walking paths, so blink no longer becomes an evasive ability it is simple a speed increase, which is only slightly helpful.
- The main ramp faces straight down to the low ground AND it is right next to the two blink locations. This means that non-blink units will lose little time chasing the blink stalkers. Yeah, they might lose 200 minerals worth of probes, but you might lose several hundred minerals and gas in stalkers.
I'm sure others see it differently, but if you look at other maps then with a similar kind of thought process you will quickly see why Antiga is so good for blink obs (and what makes it so good for drop play as well by Terrans) and why Entombed Valley isn't. Shakuras is a good one for blink obs; think of all the blink locations there, as well as Cloud Kingdom to some extent. Daybreak, not very good imo. |
| | Knowing is half the battle... the other half is lasers. |
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| Salv Canada. August 09 2012 04:18. Posts 2959 | Profile Blog # |
Thank you all, especially Whitewing and Tehemperorer, I now understand better what maps are good for blink and why.
On August 09 2012 02:05 turdburgler wrote:
in terms of ideas for harrasment with this fast blink vs expansion play. what i noticed hero would do sometimes is only send in 2ish stalkers, enough to cause damage to a probe line but the defender has to commit 4+ stalkers to stop it, because even with very minimal blink control a stalker just cant kill a stalker before it can blink out again, meaning you can attack in the front and focus your blink control there.
Besides this, are there any blink tips or techniques anyone could offer? It seems like blinking in to do damage to some building if close to where you're blinking from is fine, but unreliable. Maybe some vods or matches that show blink control and harass? |
| | http://www.twitch.tv/Lucas_Salv_Salvatore / https://twitter.com/SWBKSalv |
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| hecticSc Romania. August 09 2012 16:51. Posts 76 | Profile # |
I don't like blink plays because my epm is just 100-110. In my opinion you need 150-200 epm to perform blink aggression + warpins effectively.
On that note. You shouldnt sacrifice stalkers to kill robo, as long as his immortal count is 2 or less you're in ok shape. You should snipe pylons with stalkers in main while trying to snipe probes/zealots or an immortal at natural with the other group.
Just keep moving always and take pot shots at pylons in main and be careful how you plan your route for blinking out of the base.
If he comes after you with 70% or more of his units in the main warpin a sentry and zealots for your next warpin just ff ramp and kill expo.
Blink plays are for micro-intensive players that think they have a big edge over the oponent when it comes to microing.
If you want to see good blink play, you should check out Grubby, Kiwikaki, Huk and Creator.
Last edit: 2012-08-09 16:53:03 |
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| Omnibrad United States. August 10 2012 00:27. Posts 29 | Profile # |
| The Obs doesn't really help you do a whole lot on this map. If you start Blink and see a FE then you might consider a timing attack right as Blink finishes but without investing money into a Robo/Obs. That is money which can go into more units or a 4th Gateway which will strengthen your attack, or just FE yourself because he can't move out until he can deal with a soft Blink Stalker contain. |
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| skyyan United States. August 10 2012 07:34. Posts 69 | Profile # |
| I initially wrote up a quite long response here talking about the general concepts of blink-obs and 4-gate blink all in builds, but I decided to move it to its own thread here. Last edit: 2012-08-10 07:47:20 |
| | http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/profile/457733/1/skyyan/ |
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