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| IamPryda August 09 2012 08:45. Posts 410 | Profile # |
| For once a balence patch that tries to address a problem without going to far and over Buffing or over nerfing |
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 blawed August 09 2012 08:46. Posts 11 | Profile # |
didn't some terran all kill in the GSTL finals?
there you go. |
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| Ansinjunger United States. August 09 2012 08:48. Posts 1901 | Profile # |
On August 09 2012 08:46 blawed wrote:
didn't some terran all kill in the GSTL finals?
there you go.
That had little to do with balance--more to do with insane risks vs a team down 2-0 and then worse, plus Gumiho was just playing better.
I'm happy for these changes, although it's really annoying for zergs to reach tumors across ramps sometimes. 2 less range will exacerbate that. I won't necessarily mind if zerg has to "sim city" or think about building placement more, but they already have a lot of actions to do compared to dropping Artosis pylons surrounded by 6 gateways.Last edit: 2012-08-09 08:54:59 |
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| Sumahi Guam. August 09 2012 08:50. Posts 4935 | Profile Blog # |
| Anything that makes ravens more effective/useful is welcome by me. |
| | Startale <3, ST_July <3, HongUn <3, Savior <3, Gretorp <3, Nada <3, Rainbow <3, Ret <3, Squirtle <3, Bomber <3 |  |
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| FuzzyJAM Scotland. August 09 2012 08:51. Posts 3767 | Profile # |
Seems like this is only really helping the very top Korean Terrans who are already OK in TvZ.
They need to realise that the problem is Terran is (at least) as strong potentially as the other races, it's just harder to achieve to the extent that Terran is UP even at foreign pro level. |
| | Hard lane or feed. |  |
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| Mallement Denmark. August 09 2012 08:53. Posts 36 | Profile # |
On August 09 2012 08:32 dog8 wrote:
IS Blizzard total stupid or what its only terran that moans that zerg are op ,its true that if zerg wins cos they are better players but it seems terran wins again omg , just ask your self if zerG is really op or just weak terran players , who just won the last 2 big tournments??? so no zerg isnt op
You cant measure the balance from finals, you need a large quantity of samples in order to see if there is a imbalance somewhere, and yes 'A' terran won the last two tournaments, but dont you think its the player more than the race?....
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| Bagi August 09 2012 08:55. Posts 5927 | Profile # |
On August 09 2012 08:46 blawed wrote:
didn't some terran all kill in the GSTL finals?
there you go.
Didn't some zergs win the first 2 GSLs? There you go, zerg was balanced.
Logical fallacy to the max. |
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| Kreb August 09 2012 08:56. Posts 2074 | Profile # |
| Should be "Do you support this change?" polls in OP. Was nice to see the overall opinion like last time with the queen/overlord changes, cant really make much out of reading replies. |
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| MorroW Sweden. August 09 2012 08:56. Posts 3415 | Profile # |
raven needs higher move speed and sight radius to be effective at killing creep tumors and seeing the zergs army ahead effectively
keeping only a speed buff makes me feel terrans still wont make 1 raven to deny creep spread and scout zerg army instead of scans
however the buff in general with i agree with but i dont think it will reach the tipping point when it comes to tvz midgame pushes, especially along side with a creep spread nerf
the creep spread change i think is not the way to go about it. zvp and zvz i feel creep is already underwhelming
with maps getting bigger and were using less and less blizzard maps this creep spread change might turn out to be extremely obnoxious
i would prefer a raven sight radius buff rather than a creep spread nerf
decreasing the tumor life should also be a a good idea to encourage sniping newly created tumors with hellionsLast edit: 2012-08-09 09:00:09 |
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| forsooth United States. August 09 2012 08:56. Posts 2685 | Profile # |
On August 09 2012 07:59 nkr wrote:
Show nested quote +On August 09 2012 07:57 Shiori wrote:
On August 09 2012 07:56 nkr wrote:
On August 09 2012 07:53 oxxo wrote:
Raven change is nice.
Creep change... we'll see. The queen range buff seriously needs to go more than anything. Not sure why Blizzard seems hellbent on keeping that change even through the massive negative feedback from both us and pros.
You mean the terran pros and the terran amateurs? The queen range makes it so that terran doesnt lock you inside your base with 4 hellions, and then kills you with allins you'll never scout without map presensce. I think it's working as intended. The side effect was the massive creep spread, but that is what they're trying to fix it seems.
I kinda feel like the Overlord speed buff would have helped against those all-ins on its own, to be honest.
No, not vs terran it wouldn't.
What are you on about? Overlord scouting has become much easier and very dependable since the speed buff. It's much harder for Terrans to hide builds now. |
| | "In SC1, Dragoons were mentally retarded but SC2 stalkers are geniuses." -Woongjin_Flying |  |
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| Whitewing United States. August 09 2012 08:56. Posts 5726 | Profile # |
On August 09 2012 07:52 bellsNkeys wrote:
Show nested quote +On August 09 2012 06:21 Whitewing wrote:
On August 09 2012 06:18 ragz_gt wrote:
On August 09 2012 06:12 Whitewing wrote:
On August 09 2012 06:08 ragz_gt wrote:
On August 09 2012 06:03 Whitewing wrote:
On August 09 2012 05:58 ragz_gt wrote:
On August 09 2012 05:52 Whitewing wrote:
On August 09 2012 05:48 ragz_gt wrote:
On August 09 2012 05:38 Whitewing wrote:
[quote]
It's still not as hard as people think, and Gumiho was going up to 15-20 ghosts. Even if you can't get free EMPs, you can still snipe every infestor or just snipe the overseers and then cloak and go to town. The terran army can straight up kill broodlord based armies or ultralisk based armies pretty easily if there aren't any infestors to deal with, so focus on negating the infestors.
People think that for some reason because snipe was nerfed vs. Broods and Ultras that ghosts are useless in the matchup (snipe was actually buffed vs. infestors), they aren't, they're just an anti-caster unit (and a really good one) rather than an army annihilator.
The problem is that infestor is good against everything, and ghost is good against infestor. You can make 20 ghost to counter Zerg infestors, but what happens after infestors die? Terran can handle BL/Ultra army easily when there is no infestors, but that's also without Ghost totally kills the composition/DPS.
Rest of zerg army sucks ass once the infestors are good, the infestors are literally the lynch-pin of the entire army. Take them out of the equation and everything starts falling apart. Ghosts also don't kill the composition/dps as badly as you think. Sure they aren't as high damage dealers, but they don't need to be, and you have more army supply anyway due to the mules. Plus, ghosts can still snipe, even though it does 20 less damage than it used to, after you take out the infestors, so it's not like they're completely worthless or anything after the infestors are dead. They still do 10/20(light) a pop + upgrades. You keep saying the infestor is good against everything, that's completely irrelevant, because your ghosts are stopping them entirely. It just doesn't matter what they are good against, because they're dead/useless with good ghost usage. Take ghosts and infestors completely out of the equation (assume they trade, not fair because ghosts still help after the infestors are gone but just imagine it): terran army vs. zerg army with no infestors. Terran army will win almost every time no problem.
+3 Ghost DSP is 1/3 (2/3 against light) of +3 marine on a per supply bases, it's beyond bad. Terran army win will almost time against Zerg with no infestors, yes, but when you swap out 20 marine for 10 ghost (that's without considering resource/build cost), it's not on the same page.
*rolls eyes* Are you seriously arguing that trading 20 marines for 10 ghosts to take out all of your opponents infestors is a bad deal for you, especially since, if you don't take out those infestors, they'll just kill your 20 marines easily anyway.
No, I'm saying: Against a infestorless (especially roach based) army, ghost is pretty useless. Zerg can tech switch alot faster than Terran can. If Terran makes too many ghost compare to infestor, Zerg can just max out on roach and GG. Zerg don't have a problem of "making too many infestor", so they can arbitrary shift the infestor/ghost balance. This is compounded because Zerg can make 20 infestors at once, Terran can't make 20 ghost at once. It's like Colosus / Viking balance, except if P have 10 Robo bay built already.
Okay, you try a max roach army against a marine/marauder/medivac/tank composition with 10-20 ghosts mixed in and see how that goes for you, especially since you have no roach attack upgrades. Hell, even give the terran supply tied up in some vikings, you'll get rolled hilariously easily. You're just making things up at this point, have you ever actually seen a high level zerg player switch to mass roach in the late game?
Not pure roach, just the infestor supply worth of roach (or ultra, BL, or anything not infestor). Have you tried to engage a maxed out zerg army without infestor when you have a dozen ghost? It's literally like 1/3 of your supply just disappeared before engaging.
Roaches aren't even a consideration, they're just BAD. And you're just making shit up at this point, I'm not discussing this with you anymore. Until you can figure out that 12 ghosts (24 supply) is not 1/3 of your army supply (if your army is a whopping 72 supply total, you've got other problems besides composition), trying to discuss anything with you is a waste of time.
It kind of annoys me that ever since Zerg players found out the infestor was an amazing unit, all of a sudden everything else is bad. And when Terran found out that mass ghost late game TvZ was good it gets nerfed to hell. Correct me if I'm wrong, but last I checked Zerg players have won numerous tournaments and GSLs with muta/ling/bling in ZvT and there have been no significant Terran buff nor Zerg nerfs that affect the muta/ling/bling composition. My main issue with ghosts is that they're more situational whereas Z and P can blindly make infestors and sentries/HTs and it will always help them. The good thing is that Blizzard at least tried to give the Raven that role as well, but failed pretty hard at it.
Terran players have gotten much better at defeating and defending muta/ling/bling play, and again, that's not an end-game composition, it's a mid-game strategy. If you're stuck in ling/bling/muta while terran is on a late game economy/tech level with good upgrades, you just lose. Infestors are straight up superior against terran in the mid-game for the most part, and are essential late game, because without them in your composition, you just straight up lose to terran end-game.
Ghosts are designed to fit into the race. They are a purely support unit designed to negate essential units from other races so that the rest of the superior terran force can crush an enemy missing a required unit. The units fill different roles: Infestors are a lockdown/damage dealing/harass unit, high templar are a damage dealing/ weak caster negator, and ghosts are an excellent caster negater/harass unit. |
| | ThorZaIN is an android sent from the future to destroy everyone and everything with his super advanced mechanics and strategies. ~Chill |  |
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| dog8 August 09 2012 08:59. Posts 70 | Profile # |
On August 09 2012 08:53 Mallement wrote:
Show nested quote +On August 09 2012 08:32 dog8 wrote:
IS Blizzard total stupid or what its only terran that moans that zerg are op ,its true that if zerg wins cos they are better players but it seems terran wins again omg , just ask your self if zerG is really op or just weak terran players , who just won the last 2 big tournments??? so no zerg isnt op
You cant measure the balance from finals, you need a large quantity of samples in order to see if there is a imbalance somewhere, and yes 'A' terran won the last two tournaments, but dont you think its the player more than the race?....
YES its down to the player so why so much moaning from terrans about zergs being op and as usual blizzard helps terran again,no pros thought zergs were op |
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| SolidMoose United States. August 09 2012 09:00. Posts 1107 | Profile # |
On August 09 2012 08:40 dog8 wrote:
Show nested quote +On August 09 2012 08:37 Shiori wrote:
On August 09 2012 08:36 blawed wrote:
have you guys seen the win rate of july in the korean scene? if these changes go into effect, you guys want a more terran dominated pro scene then it already is? this is exactly what blizzard is going against considering the fact that most of the pro scene is won by koreans. Seriously guys? is this the level we are at as a community?
If you think TvZ is actually Terran favoured, I don't know what to tell you. That's hilarious.
Just look at what race has won the last 2 tornments and that tells you that terran is favoured and even more so now so noobs keep moaning and blizzard will come to your aid
All I see is Taeja being amazing, especially at MLG where he was the only terran in top 8 |
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 Liquid`Jinro Sweden. August 09 2012 09:03. Posts 32587 | Profile Blog # |
This is a really nice and measured patch I think, I'm impressed. I would consider having creep recede faster instead of spread slower, but I'm sure they considered both options.
I like this a lot eitherway. |
| | tell the guy that interplanatar interaction is pivotal to terrans variety of optionitudals in the pre-midgame preperatories as well as the protosstinal deterriggation of elite zergling strikes - Stimey n Formerly FrozenArbiter |
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| Snikk Netherlands. August 09 2012 09:03. Posts 5 | Profile # |
| Raven buff was needed, glad they made it more viable. Not sure why they feel like terran at the highest level are struggling against zerg though. I feel like it just took terrans a while to figure out how to deal with the new zerg playstyle and that terrans are doing quite well again. |
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| Mackus England. August 09 2012 09:04. Posts 1609 | Profile # |
On August 09 2012 08:56 MorroW wrote:
raven needs higher move speed and sight radius to be effective at killing creep tumors and seeing the zergs army ahead effectively
keeping only a speed buff makes me feel terrans still wont make 1 raven to deny creep spread and scout zerg army instead of scans
however the buff in general with i agree with but i dont think it will reach the tipping point when it comes to tvz midgame pushes, especially along side with a creep spread nerf
the creep spread change i think is not the way to go about it. zvp and zvz i feel creep is already underwhelming
with maps getting bigger and were using less and less blizzard maps this creep spread change might turn out to be extremely obnoxious
i would prefer a raven sight radius buff rather than a creep spread nerf
decreasing the tumor life should also be a a good idea to encourage sniping newly created tumors with hellions
I love the idea of a Raven being a spotter since it's already a detector but how much buffed would you have it? Xel'naga Tower vision range? or somewhere in between? |
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| b3n3tt3 August 09 2012 09:04. Posts 457 | Profile # |
| ravens should at least be up to overseer speeds of 2.75 in order to have an impact. |
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| larse August 09 2012 09:05. Posts 999 | Profile # |
| Creep tumor range from 10 to 8 is too much. It is like queen range 3 to 5. Queen range should be 3 to 4. And so does the creep tumor. It should be 10 to 9. |
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| Coolness53 United States. August 09 2012 09:07. Posts 655 | Profile # |
On August 09 2012 09:04 Mackus wrote:
Show nested quote +On August 09 2012 08:56 MorroW wrote:
raven needs higher move speed and sight radius to be effective at killing creep tumors and seeing the zergs army ahead effectively
keeping only a speed buff makes me feel terrans still wont make 1 raven to deny creep spread and scout zerg army instead of scans
however the buff in general with i agree with but i dont think it will reach the tipping point when it comes to tvz midgame pushes, especially along side with a creep spread nerf
the creep spread change i think is not the way to go about it. zvp and zvz i feel creep is already underwhelming
with maps getting bigger and were using less and less blizzard maps this creep spread change might turn out to be extremely obnoxious
i would prefer a raven sight radius buff rather than a creep spread nerf
decreasing the tumor life should also be a a good idea to encourage sniping newly created tumors with hellions
I love the idea of a Raven being a spotter since it's already a detector but how much buffed would you have it? Xel'naga Tower vision range? or somewhere in between?
I wouldn't mind a radius buff or a skill that can increase the radius of sight. It would be nice but man can we wait until the beta of Heart of the Swarm. |
| | DongRaeGu |  |
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| Zealot Lord Hong Kong. August 09 2012 09:08. Posts 661 | Profile # |
| I think these are fantastic changes - subtle but should be meaningful at the highest levels of TvZ. |
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