Call To Action: Balance Testing TvZ.

Overall, I think this is a good idea by Blizzard. The queen got its range buff some months ago, and is quite strong now. After the offcreep speed nerf in the beta, the queen was weaker than supposed. Now with an attack range of 5 versus ground targets, queens offer good early base defense. Instead of nerfing the queen directly, they are going to nerf the creep spread a bit. It requires very good multitasking now to get a Seal-like creep coverage of the map.

You don't choose to play zerg. The zerg choose you.

furo Germany. August 09 2012 22:52. Posts 408

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On August 09 2012 22:47 sapht wrote:

Show nested quote +

Can't wall on creep! But yeah this probably doesn't work, but it'd be so sick to see autoturrets used to wall vs ling baneling. They're pretty beefy.

you cant wall on creep, correct

but you forget that you cant put turrets on creep tumors which means, that there will always be gaps for the zerg to come trough

achristes Norway. August 09 2012 22:53. Posts 649

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I think ravens could be nice if HSM cost less energy and did less damage somehow (less splash/less overall damage). Speed helps, but I honestly don't think it will make the difference.

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mythandier United States. August 09 2012 22:56. Posts 463

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Like the changes.

I still contend that the Raven's cast range/casting cost of HSM and the lack of scalability with auto-turret (late game their damage is mitigated by lack of upgrades) are more than "secondary" problems.

During my test games I haven't noticed any increase in viability of the Raven due to the speed increase because:
- when used to harass or clear creep with a banshee they still get run down by mutas/corruptor
- in battle they still get insta fungaled at 9 range before they can cast anything so I'm forced to throw out a PDD over my units or just let it die without casting anything (or I could HSM the 'in-range' ground units and kill my army)

These are low masters games so I guess it's not at the level they're looking to improve TvZ. The creep spread is noticabley easier to slow down though.

TrippSC2 United States. August 09 2012 23:00. Posts 175

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I like this overall, even as a Zerg player. I feel like this is good for the game.

It doesn't take away the value of queens for defending hellion runbys, but still addresses the legitimate problem with mass queens; tons of creep.

As for the Raven buff, Blizzard has probably seen more late game TvZ than I have. Most games I've seen don't incorporate Ravens in any sizable number during late game, but rely on the mobility of Bio + Ghost Nuke to hit where Broodlord/Infestor is not. It'll be interesting to see it play out. I know when I've seen Ravens used, SM owns Broodlord clumps (Sheth vs Thorzain on Metropolis at one of the MLGs comes to mind).

Femari United States. August 09 2012 23:02. Posts 2836

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Speed? I would've much preferred reducing the cost of the Ravens. Just increasing the speed of it wont help it. The main issue with Ravens is the amount of resources you use to make them a useful unit. You cannot justify using them because of a speed buff.

Lukeeze[zR] Switzerland. August 09 2012 23:10. Posts 5787

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If a lot of terrans try to use the raven, then blizzard will have a good sample size of replays and would be able to adjust the raven correctly if needed. They need to see the raven used by the pros before "really" patching it, going step by step isn't that bad for once. Going straight for a HSM buff (range, energy cost or upgrade time/cost) could be more important than expected and make blizzard look, once again, bad at fixing its own game.

Anyway, Blizzard has to have further plans for the ravens because terrans won't be able mass scans versus swarm hosts (and burrowed charging ultras ... just thinking about it makes me rage

). Like it or not, it will be a remake of "science vessels vs lurkers".

Last edit: 2012-08-09 23:14:40

Terran & Potato Salad.

The Final Boss United States. August 09 2012 23:14. Posts 1813

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Speed just does not seem as important as range and cost. Speed is not what is holding back the Raven, and the only way you could make it viable by increasing its speed would be to make it as fast or faster than a Corrupter. It gets killed by Zerg air units and it still cannot get past fungal growth. Increase the range on Seeker Missile or make it cheaper to get.

I'm curious why they do not try to make Thors better against Zerg air. Right now Thor damage vs Air is practically nullified if the Zerg gets Air Carapace upgrades, but if you gave their bonus damage vs Light to being against all air units then it might mean that they suddenly can help turn the tide in Viking vs Corrupter wars or help give Terran a less-micro dependant unit that can kill Brood Lords. That buff would not change TvP at all and it might keep more armies on the ground in late game TvT instead of 40 Vikings vs 40 Vikings battles.

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2stra August 09 2012 23:15. Posts 168

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What about making Seeker Missile a spell you can cast without a target like PDD? That way the terran has (another) way to control space but he has to decide whether he micro's himself by targeting a unit or he gives the zerg a chance to micro against it by suiciding a ling (or w/e)

Random

pmp10 August 09 2012 23:21. Posts 1389

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On August 09 2012 23:10 Lukeeze[zR] wrote:
If a lot of terrans try to use the raven, then blizzard will have a good sample size of replays and would be able to adjust the raven correctly if needed. They need to see the raven used by the pros before "really" patching it, going step by step isn't that bad for once.

Due to metropolis and atlantis spaceships ravens seen more use recently then for the previous year.
Blizzard should have all the data they need on ravens and apparently decided the problem lies in micro difficulties.

Last edit: 2012-08-09 23:21:39

Strykerz United States. August 09 2012 23:26. Posts 79

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I'm ecstatic for the creep nerf - sick of zergs with sub 100 apm able to cover the map in creep before I take a third - however I don't think raven SPEED is necessarily the problem. It's more of you have to be breathing down the zerg's back to launch HSM, the only real reason to get ravens in TvZ.

I'm not sure where the outcry of the community claiming raven's were too slow came from? (granted, ravens are/were very slow) but I do believe it's a step in the right direction.

*crosses toes* hope this makes something better.

#MKPHwaiting #xOGaming

cLAN.Anax United States. August 09 2012 23:35. Posts 1561

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Initially like the Creep Tumor nerf. Queens starting with 50 energy will provide Zergs with enough energy to get a ton of Tumors out on the map, but they won't be quite as effective. Quantity over quality, I guess.

I actually don't like where the Raven is going, much as I'd REALLY like to see it used more. Personally, I think it's fine where it's at right now, but the Seeker Missile could do with a change (I'd call for more constant acceleration, like an "inevitable mini-nuke that WILL chase you down" sort of thing, rather than cram the accel. right before it hits). However, I agree that this will make the Raven more viable; just wish Blizzard were a little more... innovative with their changes.

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eGTFitzChivalry United States. August 09 2012 23:39. Posts 2

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Why don't they just put this on PTR...?

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revy United States. August 09 2012 23:40. Posts 1491

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Very good changes IMO. Very small steps as the mu is pretty much balanced. A very slight course correction.

Demorase August 09 2012 23:42. Posts 136

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Everyone keeps mentioning HSM but I think this buff is just aimed at making it easier to land some PDD and make the raven more viable as a detection method, that's it.

They can't really do anything with HSM as it is, they'll probably revamp it completely comes HotS.

Vindicare605 United States. August 09 2012 23:42. Posts 6487

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On August 09 2012 23:21 pmp10 wrote:

Show nested quote +

This is why guys like you don't balance the game.

If Blizz was balancing Ravens around the small handful of professional games we've seen them used and only on specific maps that aren't even on the ladder and some tournaments don't even use, it'd be completely irresponsible of them.

Thankfully they want to see it widely used more BEFORE they address any of its spells if they do at all. That's the correct albeit slow way of doing things. I'm happy they're taking that approach.

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Rannasha Netherlands. August 09 2012 23:46. Posts 2262

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On August 09 2012 23:39 eGTFitzChivalry wrote:
Why don't they just put this on PTR...?

PTR is much more work for a random player to get into. This is just a custom map like any other, so it's quick and easy to try.

As long as they're not making fundamental changes that go beyond what can be achieved with the map-editor, they should be fine with the current method of testing things on a custom map.

Though it'd be good if there was more than just Antiga to test on.

Such flammable little insects!

TheRealNanMan United States. August 09 2012 23:46. Posts 1221

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I like that we are finally getting a chance to test out some changes to TvZ. Maybe now terran players wont cringe when someone says use ravens

Areon United States. August 09 2012 23:49. Posts 270

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Creep tumor change makes a hell of a lot of sense to me, given how popular Queens are for obvious reasons. Don't see any issue with this.

genius_man16 United States. August 09 2012 23:50. Posts 746

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I enjoy how they themselves mention that these balance changes probably won't do anything to solve late game T.

"Because ravens are difficult to use, we don’t expect this buff will have more than a small impact on high-level play or any significant impact on balance at most skill levels."

How about actually changing some of the spell levels? Like seeker missile speed/cast range/mana cost?

Oh right, because "Seeker missile cost or cast range appear to be secondary factors."

Man I love Blizzard logic.