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| BobMcJohnson France. August 10 2012 07:06. Posts 1277 | Profile Blog # |
This matchup really frustrates me to no end. I just can't win a game to save my life. And by that I mean that I'm at sub 30% winrate since like March 2011 -_-
My typical game goes like this:
- 1 Rax FE
- 2 Medivac timing does little to no damage.
- Drops sometimes do a little bit of damage but not enough.
- Protoss eventually gets a big army and rolls over me.
90% of my wins usually come from some random 1/2 base all-in that I sometimes defend.
So here's a fairly generic replay : http://drop.sc/235936
- At some point I scan his front, see zero units, panic thinking that he's all-ining me, and thow down 3 bunkers. Turns how he was just greedy as fuck.
- I see that I cant really break the front with my army so I try to drop his main, but he sees it coming since I don't notice the obs over my army. I try to run in the front while his army is in his main, but he comes back, I I send the drop back, but stalkers were still wating.
- I pull back (At this point I know that I already lost the game since I did 0 damage and lost quite a lot of army)
- I try to send out drops, but he just walks across the map and kills me before the drops even reach his base.
And literally every single game I play is the same, my first push doesn't do much, and then he gets a big army and rolls over me.
I'm so fucking frustrated by this matchup, It already made me stop playing the game for ~2 months a while ago. I can win consistently against diamond Terrans and Zergs and then I'll lose 10 games in a row against a friend who is a gold Protoss. I just want to bash my head against my keyboard every time I see Protoss written on the loading screen.
It feels like the protoss has no vulnerable timing until he can march across the map and win - I know it's not the case, and it's just that I'm bad at the game but holy shit I hate this matchup.  Last edit: 2012-08-10 07:20:24 |
| | "When you have to shoot, shoot, don't talk." - Tuco Benedicto Pacifico Juan Maria Ramirez |
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| BioTech Australia. August 10 2012 07:27. Posts 263 | Profile # |
The thing about 1rax FE is it allows the P to go 1gate FE. It also surrenders the chance the terran has of putting pre 9 min pressure on the P. This increases the chances of the game going longer and the longer it goes it the more it goes in favor of the P who can convert gas reserves into archons, colossus, psi storm and give bio-based terrans hell.
I go 2rax and expand at 7:00. With scouting around 4:00 you can punish 1gate FE once Combat Shields are done. And every T should do an assault on the P by no later than 10:00 with +1w and stim.
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| | I actually played the original WarCraft - Orcs v Humans back in 1995! |
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| Psychobabas United Kingdom. August 10 2012 07:28. Posts 1957 | Profile Blog # |
3 major mistakes:
a. No combat shields or concussive shells throughout the entire game.
b. You dropped a protoss that knew you were going to drop. You saw the colossus, yet you dropped right in front of them. Unbelievably bad idea.
c. You saw colossus but didn't make vikings instantly. In fact you have 0 vikings throughout the game.
Also you never checked for a third. No third = 2 base push almost guaranteed.
+ you need constant scv productionLast edit: 2012-08-10 07:32:45 |
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| YumYumGranola Canada. August 10 2012 07:49. Posts 252 | Profile # |
My thoughts:
When you started the game, you picked Terran. Next time pick Protoss and you'll never lose a TvP (unless of course the Terran player is like 2-3 times better than you).
(800 rating Masters Toss - formerly mid Diamond Terran)
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| NewDawn Canada. August 10 2012 08:15. Posts 118 | Profile # |
I'll note take in a spoiler, then tl;dr it for you.
+ Show Spoiler +You didn't kill the probe with the marine D: <
Your build order for the 1Rax FE is kind of messed up. For me, the best way to not miss SCVs is 15OC+15Marine, 16OC, 17SCV+17Depot, then start marines again. Also, don't just throw the depot anywhere, wall off.
Why is your reaction to an empty front 3 bunkers? It makes sense, but like, it was kind of a blind judgement.
Holy building placement batman.
You can use your factory to scout.
Your 4th and 5th rax were late.
Too many supply blocks. You could have had like 10~ supply when you pushed out.
You had the right idea with the drop, but didn't execute it. When you pushed the front and saw his army, you should have dropped immediately.
You saw colossi. No vikings. Why :c After 4 medivacs, you can switch to full viking production so long as you see the colossi and keep your medivacs alive.
You dropped on the colossi. omg.
Combat Shields! Screw Concussive Shells right now if you want. It's not nearly as important as Combat Shields at this point in the game. But you really could have had both.
You could have dropped your army back in your main to get the highground back.
Just looking around at the end, you could have been starting 2/2 with all your money.
Aside from what Psychobabas said, the timing of your 2 medivac push, and the strength of it was severely hindered by your supply blocks, and the lack of production.
I think the most important thing you have to do right now is get all your timings down. I think you need to tweak your gas timings a little bit if you want to get a strong 2 medivac push. Also, at around 8-9 minutes, that's when you choose if you're going to add 2 more barracks or a CC. I think I have a replay of my timings if you want. It's not perfect, but it's a little tighter than what you did. I'll post it if you want.
I know you're probably going to hate me for saying this, but you need to keep up with your macro. SCVs and Depots are very important :l |
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| zmansman17 United States. August 10 2012 10:45. Posts 2181 | Profile # |
A great way to glean an advantage is to build your CC in-base. This may sound like it costs you in macro, but it really doesn't because you will be moving your CC by the time you have optimal mineral saturation at your main (24 workers on minerals, or 2 per patch. Note that full saturation is 3 per patch). When you build the CC, however, make sure that it is out of vision range from the top of your ramp. Also, whenever you can, feign early pressure to compel the Protoss to delay their expansion. Even if it's a small delay, it may pay dividends later.
At the end of the day, Terran is the best race to deny information, so do your best every game, especially TvP to deny any information. It is, however, valuable to give them mis-information, such as proxying your first rax (not too far away from main) or sending a few early marines with the scouting SCV as a fake attack. Make it look real and build a bunker if you push the Protoss back.
Basically, Protoss love to know what you are doing because they have established builds that tend to destroy the 2 medivac push. So never telegraph the 1 Rax FE, even if the build is your intended build. Remember Protoss has a distinct advantage if they know what your attack is and when it is coming. Do not let them know when your attack is coming, and you will be rewarded.Last edit: 2012-08-10 10:54:24 |
| | ♞ - His EKG is flattening get me a defib stat! Prepped and Ready! - ♞ |
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| MormonWithoutACause United States. August 10 2012 12:56. Posts 94 | Profile # |
I really recommend the Day[9] Daily analysis of the game between Thorzain and HasuObs. Thorzain kinda answers your problems by building up an army that actually rolls a protoss lategame one.
On to the game... Macro issues really stopped that 10 minute timing from being exactly that...You need to scout for a third (usually with a factory)... You need to add on production quicker... AND you freaking need vikings against colossi! like 4 per colossi. Also upgrades are good bro :D
Sorry to be nit picky, but your own macro hindered your push and from there everything kinda falls out... You really beat yourself rather than got beat by the Toss. |
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| Braynor August 10 2012 13:39. Posts 18 | Profile # |
+ Show Spoiler +Okay, first thing:
Scouting. You absolutely need to know if he's going for colossi or templar tech. You played pretty much blind during the entire game until you went for the drop, where you saw the 2 colossi and 5 gates. You can pretty much assume he's going for a 2 base all-in. Or, you could just have a marine stationned at potential thirds, and if he doesn't start one by 9-10 min, I assume it's some kind of 2 base timing. So, knowing it's a 2 base timing, it makes NO sense to try to drop . Especially when it's colossi. If you're going to do some drops, just load up 1 medivac and make sure that you keep all your units alive. You can keep it around his base for a counter attack once he decides to attack, forcing him to warp at his base or even better yet pull back his units. You need all of your units alive for when he pushes, and at this point you don't need to do damage, he does. Every terran always assumes he HAS to kill protoss in the mid game. When he's 2 base all-inning you, that mind set is poison. You should be adding on a second starport and immediadtly build vikings as soon as you see evidence of colossi. You even loaded up for ANOTHER drop after you see the 2 base is imminent. Also, when you scouted his 1 gate expand, it is safe to say you are safe for the next ~3 mins, which means you can choose to either hard tech (fast upgrades, stim, combat etc...), fast 3d CC, or faster production/add-ons. The build you went for was not the best response to what he was doing, It was sort of a middle build. It also wouldn't be a bad idea to fight down ramp, it just make it awkward for the protoss because some of his units can't shoot (obviously) and sometimes you get free shots on the colossi with the vikings (WHICH YOU 100% NEED AGAINST THIS).
There's obviously the typical macro you can improve on, it was far from optimal in that game.
Okay, to sum up:
- Macro better, obviously.
- Need more information
- Agression vs 2 base timings is not a good idea, but if you insist on it, never commit your units. If you have a chance to kill 10-15 probes and lost all your units or kill 5-6 and get out, opt to get out.
- You need vikings against this.
- Keep a marine at a third.
- Against 1 gate FE, he can't attack, so you are free to do whatever you want. Don't do a "little bit of everything". Personally I like to 3 CC against any fast nexus openings.
- Pull scvs against those things if you feel you don't have enough units. You either die there or you win, so it's worth pulling workers to have enough units left over to counter and win.
- And nothing wrong with lifting up your CC into your main and pull workers. Just make sure you can outright crush his push and you win.
What zmansman said.
http://sc2ranks.com/us/2010184/BraynorLast edit: 2012-08-10 13:44:37 |
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| Wildmoon Thailand. August 10 2012 13:40. Posts 2682 | Profile # |
| I actually open with 2 rax more than 1 rax these day. |
| | "A man is what he chooses to be" |
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| BobMcJohnson France. August 10 2012 16:37. Posts 1277 | Profile Blog # |
Thanks for the feedback guys 
So yeah, my macro still needs work. And that drop on the colossi was bad, I had it shift clicked and didnt see he was waiting for me in time :<.
And if I understand it correctly, instead of just pushing with my first two medivacs every game my plan should be
- Check for a third, (marine/scv/factory)
- If there's a third push/drop as usual,
- If there's no third when the medivacs come out, drop a CC in my main, scout for his tech (I really need to remember using the factory), and play defensively until he all-ins or takes a third.
Right?Last edit: 2012-08-10 16:38:36 |
| | "When you have to shoot, shoot, don't talk." - Tuco Benedicto Pacifico Juan Maria Ramirez |
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| Mentalizor Denmark. August 10 2012 16:49. Posts 1510 | Profile # |
Bio destroys gateway units in a straight fight. They just simply do.
So what you need to worry about is his aoe - and his aoe only (well also you need to pick your fights against chargelot but you get my idea).
So having no vikings this game is just plain wrong. You NEED to deal with his AoE. Vikings (vs Colossi) and Ghosts (vs Templars/archons) are essential and really needed. Information is essential. MMM/Viking should easilly fight gateway/colo if you just micro correctly. If he adds HT/DT/Archon ghosts will be a necessity. |
| | (yಠ,ಠ)y - Y U NO ALL IN? - rtsAlaran: " I somehow sit inside the bus.Hot_Bit giving me a massage" |
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| Braynor August 10 2012 23:46. Posts 18 | Profile # |
On August 10 2012 16:37 BobMcJohnson wrote:Thanks for the feedback guys So yeah, my macro still needs work. And that drop on the colossi was bad, I had it shift clicked and didnt see he was waiting for me in time :<. And if I understand it correctly, instead of just pushing with my first two medivacs every game my plan should be - Check for a third, (marine/scv/factory) - If there's a third push/drop as usual, - If there's no third when the medivacs come out, drop a CC in my main, scout for his tech (I really need to remember using the factory), and play defensively until he all-ins or takes a third. Right?
The opening is as important as the transition. If you see him going for that 1 gate no gas expand, I would either drop a CC in your base, then add double eng bays, or go for a quick stim timing with 4 racks. He's basically saying no rush 9 min. So in that time you need to get yourself as ahead as possible. And if he's not hard teching into colossi, it is probably still a good idea to drop since he'll have a hard time splitting his units with only gateway units. All I was saying is judge if you can get away with being greedy and/or dropping, and if you think you can, then do it. It basically comes with practice.
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| Rannasha Netherlands. August 11 2012 00:07. Posts 2262 | Profile Blog # |
When you load up / send out a drop, always check for an obs with your army first. Protoss love to keep their obs over your army. If you're at your base, just make sure there's a turret near the entrance you can hug (serves a double purpose as DT-deterrent), otherwise zoom in and out over your army. By doing this, you can spot the ripple effect of a cloaked unit. If you see anything, drop a scan and take it out.
A drop that the enemy knows is coming will almost always fail to achieve the desired result.Last edit: 2012-08-11 00:08:09 |
| | Such flammable little insects! |
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| doktorLucifer United States. August 13 2012 18:20. Posts 793 | Profile Blog # |
I have a qustion about the 1rax fe 2medivac pressure timing.
When I'm pushing out, I start banking minerals even if I constantly make depots, scvs and MMM. Is this when I add more rax? do I tech or expo?
The build I've been using is this one. At what stage should I be at my enemy's ramp? Do I push with my units a little before medivacs pop? |
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| biceninja Sweden. August 13 2012 21:02. Posts 12 | Profile # |
doktorLucifer,
My standard TvP today is 1rax FE going for a 2 medivac stim +1 kinda push at around 10-11 minutes depending on early pressure/4 gate etc from the P, and I do the following:
Move out when your first 2 medivacs pop.
Make sure you know what you're facing when moving out(!). If you scan or scout collosus, stay in base/back off and add another starport and make vikings. When you have a sufficient viking count, move out. If no collossus, go poke. Expand behind your move-out and put down a ghost academy. That'll enable ghosts if/when P switches from collossus to high templar tech, and even if P doesn't tech switch, ghosts are f-ing fantastic and you want to have them. Add barracks as you can afford them and remember tech labs for ghosts. Get ghost energy upgrade and +1 air weapon upgrade and cloak.
Works wonders for me. |
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| ishyishy United States. August 14 2012 00:19. Posts 794 | Profile # |
Forget about the medivac timing, that is "standard" now. Protoss expect it every single time. Do a 8 minute stim timing instead with no medivacs. If the protoss did a 1 gate expand, and is intending on teching to colossus, they wont have a lot of units at 8 minutes in the game; this is your timing window to do severe damage if not win the game.
I have lost to this 8 minute stim push several times because i tech too fast, as I expect an attack at 10 minutes (or 11 min) with medivacs, and by that time I will have 1-2 colossus and gateway units to defend. |
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| RiSkysc2 August 14 2012 00:34. Posts 546 | Profile # |
On August 10 2012 07:27 BioTech wrote:
The thing about 1rax FE is it allows the P to go 1gate FE. It also surrenders the chance the terran has of putting pre 9 min pressure on the P. This increases the chances of the game going longer and the longer it goes it the more it goes in favor of the P who can convert gas reserves into archons, colossus, psi storm and give bio-based terrans hell.
I go 2rax and expand at 7:00. With scouting around 4:00 you can punish 1gate FE once Combat Shields are done. And every T should do an assault on the P by no later than 10:00 with +1w and stim.
Can you please give some credentials (league) before you post bad feedback, at least then we know that you're trolling or a bronzie who doesn't understand the game. Terrans can easily put on pressure before 10 minutes, ever heard of 2 rax, 1rax into 4 rax, 5 rax, 6 rax? You can also do a normal 3 barracks pressure timing, which will nearly always force sentries / stalkers (gas units) which the protoss wouldn't otherwise make. Last edit: 2012-08-14 00:35:29 |
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| phidget Canada. August 15 2012 04:15. Posts 9 | Profile # |
I personally like to think of setting up a timing attack with the current one in progress. What my builds usually consist of is 1rax fe, into 2 more rax constant marine and access production. Add on two gas then get ebay and factory. After your third rax finishes get a full round from both raxes and send an early 8 marine push towards there base. While this is happening drop tech lab after first marine on new rax. Get +1 started get stim started and start your sp. your stim will be coming up and build marauders. Your first timing should be with 8 marines and this can do ALOT OF DAMAGE if the Protoss fe. Also this is a great scouting technique as well. Remember these units aren't forfeit. If you go in there and too many units or blocking ramp with ff then just head home with them. Head over again with 3 marauders and all marines while stim almost finished hit with that timing while your Medivacs are started do some damage with that poke retreat to reinforcements + Medivacs. Should be able to seriously cripple or flat out kill Protoss at this point. If not choose appropriate response macro out or if you did a lot of dmg drop couple extra rax keep upgrades going and overwhelm with drops and pokes. I almost never drop on my first Medivacs push. A good technique is poking the front and seeing a large p army. Leave immediately, if he chases you lead him away from his base at the expansion load up drop his main. Works very well. Don't just follow orthodox timing attacks, my 8 marine push wins me 90% of my games IMO
Edit: Sorry about multipost, posted this on my phone and went a little crazyLast edit: 2012-08-15 05:18:33 |
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| phidget Canada. August 15 2012 04:17. Posts 9 | Profile # |
Last edit: 2012-08-15 05:17:17 |
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| phidget Canada. August 15 2012 04:17. Posts 9 | Profile # |
Last edit: 2012-08-15 05:16:57 |
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