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| the p00n Netherlands. August 10 2012 08:45. Posts 533 | Profile # |
Low masters game, for what it's worth.
I'm originally a protoss player and have been playing quite a lot of terran lately (thus pretty new to terran, but I'm contemplating a race switch). A big problem I encouter in my TvZ play is that of counterattacks. As protoss I can have cannons, forcefields and a pretty strong sim city with forge/gateway (much stronger than just depots). As terran, I just don't feel like I have that option.
The replay attached is unfortunately a replay where I win. Normally I am against posting winning replays in [h]-topics, but I ensure you that this replay is the most relevant example. I get an incredible advantage, but the game gets insanely close due to some counterattacks I did not know how to properly deal with. In fact, I feel like he could have won the game if not for some silly micro mistakes at the very last minute of the game.
I actually have a triple depot wall. One at the top of my ramp, one at the bottom of my ramp and a wall in front of my natural. Apparently, it doesn't really matter.
Could any terran give me some insights? Am I just doing something completely wrong/retarded? I could have my third as a planetary, but the general consensus seems to be that an orbital is better... I'm quite lost. Do I need to leave units behind (and thus weaken my attack)? How many? Because most zergs take their entire army to all-in counter-attack me, leaving only a few infestors behind which is very hard to attack into (although in this game I did kind of fuck up attacking into the infestors; the general problem still stands though although it is probably magnified in this replay).
Also, general feedback on my play is still appreciated, although not the center of this topic.
Input from all leagues is welcome as long as your input is informational.
http://www.sc2rep.com/replays/%28Z%29Nine_vs_%28T%29HUARGH/20593 |
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| Typho0n Canada. August 10 2012 09:58. Posts 276 | Profile Blog # |
Hey I dont think you need that wall covering the bottom of your ramp instead try to build your supply depots across like you did later in the game that completely blocks your natural from the outside. To me the double ramp block seems redundant (but that's personal preference).
Also I know it really doesnt apply to this map but in other maps I try to only have one entrance going out of my base so if there is any counterattack the chance that they run into my rallied units are higher (such as on Ohana I completely block my natural ramp and rally my guys out through my third).
Relating to daybreak I always leave a few units behind.. perhaps in a bunker or just hanging out near the mineral line. However, I always make a wall at my third as well (using supply depots and barracks). If he does a full fledged counter attack like he did to you he has to waste banes on supply depots which is way more cost efficient for you if you end up in a base trade scenario. With a proper wall you only have to leave a few marines at home to deter a zerg from attacking (unless he goes all inish with banes).
I'm still watching the vid so i'll continue to edit this as I go along but I think you should make some medivacs! You need those bad boys to help heal your men from those fungals haha.
Edit: ya I totally think the reason for that game why it was so close was you didnt have medivacs haha. Sure you lost your third and your nat but you wouldnt have lost so many marines in your push if you had like 5 medivacs and a decent spread. But i realize you are focusing more on the counterattack aspect of the game so what i said above applies. GL HF!
p.s this is coming from top diamonds T if you care to knowLast edit: 2012-08-10 10:04:02 |
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| CTSChao United States. August 10 2012 10:08. Posts 44 | Profile # |
Hi, i'm a high plat player.
I know your level of play is much higher than mine yet this is the one build that allows me to consistently take wins off diamond zergs
I also had problems with zergs backstabbing my 3rd as soon as it landed. I first tried to keep the zergs bases using banshee/hellion/drop harrass while i tried to secure my third, yet i found that as soon as my harrassing units were cleaned up the zerg would simply decoy my marines away from my third with mutas and then take out my third with speedling/banelings.
I then tried 2 base all-in builds, yet the current patches and unit buffs have caused zergs to spread creep like crazy ( queen attack range= less spines and more queens vs hellions) , and my units would get surrounded and destroyed.
What i've found that works is early banshee and hellion pressure off 2 bases.
This is how it works:
I do a standard 1 rax expo and immediately double gas asap.
@100 gas i throw down my factory and next @50 gas i throw down a reactor on my barracks.
@ 100% factory i swap the fact onto the reactor and build a starport, making a tech lab with the barracks. and start producing hellions.
Once the tech lab is done i lift off the barracks and use it to help wall off, while simultaneously throwing down several bunkers, the number depending on whether i see an early third or not.
(the gas timings work out so when the starport lands on the tech lab i have enough for 1 banshee and cloak)
Double gas on your natural
Continue producing banshees and hellions while poking in, but you don't want to sac your hellions for a few drones yet.
The idea behind this build is that you want to draw the queens away so that your units can cause damage. ( the 4 queen build is extremely popular, with some zergs going up to 7-8). If your opponent throws down extra spines to defend agaisnt your hellions, use your hellions to pin the extra queens down at the natural, and then use your banshees to cause damage in the main. If he throws down lots of spores, he won't have the army or spine count to defend vs your hellions, and you should be able to even the worker count and maybe even take the worker lead.
Here the build diverges into two options:
1) throw down double armory and then 2 more factories when possible
2) throw down 1 more factory, 1 armory, and one cc (your 3rd)
Now, assuming you've done decent damage with your hellions/banshees, the zerg has 2 choices: take a third and macro up, or 2 base all in you. With the extra bunkers that we built in the beginning and repairing w/ scvs, you should be able to hold off a 2 base all in. If he takes a third, continue producing units and throw down more factories. Set up for a strong 1/1 timing attack and you should be able to force a gg or take out the third
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| rauk United States. August 10 2012 10:17. Posts 1820 | Profile Blog # |
You need to wall off your third with a bunker and depots to prevent runbys, plus a tank or two. Some people put their bunker in between gas and CC, some people put it right next to the CC and surround the bunker with depots. You'll also need a turret for detecting burrowed infestors before they can spam infested terrans.
Your natural got busted because you stopped macroing and had idle factories for about a minute. If you had kept up tank production then you could have sieged up and he wouldn't have been able to do anything to your nat. You also need to lift up your third and nat as soon as you think it's going to get overrun; the whole point of making an orbital instead of PF at your third is even if you get overrun you'll save the orbital at least.
Whether you turn around to defend or keep attacking is map dependent and also how much stuff he left behind. If you think he took absolutely everything (which he basically did this game) you should probably base trade and depend on your tank reinforcements to defend.
also if you wanna deny the third you should also build a bunker there, you can't really bust that with only queens especially if you have a shee follow up with hellion support. |
| | padthaispecial | DeSPA | CRTL WeMade Grilled Cheese |
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| MstrJinbo United States. August 10 2012 21:56. Posts 806 | Profile # |
The idea behind this build is that you want to draw the queens away so that your units can cause damage. ( the 4 queen build is extremely popular, with some zergs going up to 7-8). If your opponent throws down extra spines to defend agaisnt your hellions, use your hellions to pin the extra queens down at the natural, and then use your banshees to cause damage in the main. If he throws down lots of spores, he won't have the army or spine count to defend vs your hellions, and you should be able to even the worker count and maybe even take the worker lead.
Two things potentially happen. They control the queens properly and you do close to zero damage or you lose all your hellions for 15 drones. The zerg builds two rounds of drones since you can't attack for a while and Still ends up 20 or 30 drones ahead. MMA has a similar tvz style but he works in a third CC to help With keeping pace with the Zerg economy. |
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| stoopid_boi August 10 2012 22:11. Posts 18 | Profile # |
High masters T for reference,
For nat - typically you build a bunker close to both your ramp and mineral line with 2~3 depots in front of it
For 3rd - bunker behind a gas geyser which can protect most of your mineral line and depot wall around it, depending on the size of the counter can work wonders.
For full army counters it sorta depends on situation. If they attack your 3rd first lift and lose all the scv's and you should have enough time to defend nat and i hope to god that your attack does more damage XD |
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| SKTerran.117 United States. August 10 2012 22:20. Posts 624 | Profile Blog # |
| Bunkers with depots walling off entrances. Also if the situation calls for it, load up some medics and drop him while retreating to defend. His army is out of position and your drops will do a lot of damage if you can control them well. |
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| Brokensc2 United States. August 10 2012 22:34. Posts 15 | Profile # |
| Bunker placement becomes so huge against zerg. I've found that proper bunker placement is the difference between winning and losing a game. There are some pretty good bunker placement threads around. I stole a lot of bunker placements from watching Demuslim's stream. I was told that he probably got them from Ryung but they are so perfect. |
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| RyLai United States. August 10 2012 22:46. Posts 293 | Profile # |
You want a Bunker near the mineral line of your expansions (or right next to the CC), and wall that off with Depots. In addition, create another wall outside your natural. Generally you want a Barracks or Depot wall protecting your third from counters. On a map like Ohana, it's better to just wall off the third completely, whereas on Cloud Kingdom, you can just wall off from the side of the ramp to your CC and have a Bunker in the corner of the CC and wall.
Honestly, not even a full Bunker is necessary to defend. At the higher levels, they realize that they can't really break it and just leave. At the lower levels, they will try, and you will lose stuff... But at least it's a cost effective trade for you.
If it's an all in counterattack, then start setting up defenses at your natural (sieging Tanks on the high ground, dropping additional Bunkers) and try to save your SCVs. You might want to let your Orbital take a little abuse to stall for time, then lift it to safety.
If you're worried about Infestors, then don't 1A around. Obviously, you don't want to be slow about the map, but have a few Marines go ahead of the group. Stim them and run them forward to see what's ahead. If the Infestors Fungal them, then siege your Tanks in a good position and send small groups of Marines at a time. If they don't Fungal them, then they die to the small group of Marines. The thing about Terran is that you need to be comfortable to send a small group of Marines forward while having a majority of your army camped defensively just behind them. A small force of Marines is enough to do plenty of damage if ignored, and can easily run to safety without over-committing and getting caught by a large Ling/Bane/Infestor army. |
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| shadow_slim United States. August 11 2012 21:59. Posts 14 | Profile # |
Okay, so the first counter ling push the zerg did could have easily been avoided by doing 2 things. 1) sim citying better. That double wall at your ramp was awkward and redundant. I usually wall from the ramp to my natural cc, it makes defending ling sa lot easier, especially when u do 2) save your hellions! You delayed his hatch, which he already delayed himself, and roasted 40 units at 10 mins! it was 1150 to 300 minerals lost in your favor, just pulling your hellions back to your natural would have put you so far ahead I wouldn't be surprised if the zerg GGed right then and there.
The second counter attack was a bad decision from zerg because he brought his banelings with him. Obviously with that many uints the zerg was throwing at you meant you had to abandon your third. A few tips, and this goes for all matchups. leave a marine on that pathway to your third. As long as you have minimap awareness you will have enough time to lift off your orbital and evacuate your scvs. And when u evacuate scvs, mineral walk. Getting them trapped between lings and banelings hurts my soul.
Besides that, your decision making was good. Going for a base trade was definately the right decision. The reason why the infestors were scary was only because you had like no medvacs out and attacked threw a choke. His army is at your base which means he has pretty much nothing at home except a hand full of infestors. Instead of going threw that choke, go around and attack his third while dropping his main with 2 medvacs. It avoids the choke and puts him in a very intense position because his main has his tech buildings but his third is where the majority of his income is at. And with only infestors at home he wont be able to save both, if any. But again, you need medvacs to do that.
Other people have made great points about putting bunkers behind mineral lines and protecting them with supply depots. While this is great advice, that alone would not have made that game you played much different.
Anyways hoped I helped. Lifting off is really good when the zergs units cant attack air.
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| | Cheese, gimmiks, no skill races, its all irrelevant when u beat it anyways. |
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| Willzzz United Kingdom. August 11 2012 23:15. Posts 685 | Profile # |
You seemed to spend an awful lot of money on defensive structures like turrets and depot walls and not that much on actual army.
You should consider keeping up production of either hellions/banshees in order to retain map control. If you have a squad of hellions roaming the map it is pretty hard for zerg to do any decent counter attacks, at least not surprise ones. |
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| Laughing United States. August 11 2012 23:28. Posts 44 | Profile # |
Hi, 850+ pt masters terran here.
I mostly deal with runbys with good map presence and positioning. If I see a handful of zerglings I box what I think is a significant enough marine force with a medivac or two and stim them to the main. What's important is that you spot that a counterattack is incoming. By map presence I mean positioning your army in places where you can both attack and defend, and having map vision through any means (supp depos at key points, sensor towers, units at key points).
Remember, that is some of their army is at your main; their main army has less units.Last edit: 2012-08-11 23:30:21 |
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