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| Orek August 10 2012 13:59. Posts 1391 | Profile # |
[G] Zerg Sim City for Spire protection in ZvP
Painful setback for Zerg. Yummy moment for Protoss
Introduction Sim City –the term used to refer to a group of buildings or a part of a player's base, constructed in such a way that they serve more functions than those of the individual buildings, according to liquipedia. While learning sim city is a must for Terran/Protoss, Zerg players often ignore it completely. Careful building placements are almost non-existent especially in ZvP with no speedling/hellion type run-by from Protoss. Often times, tech buildings are thrown down at random locations on creep. Because of this, lategame tech snipe by small Zealot/DT(melee units) squad with warpprism is relatively easy today even at pro level. This entire thread is devoted to sim city(wall-in) for protecting Greater Spire vs Zealot/DT drops like the one in the image above.
Why Greater Spire? + Show Spoiler + Greater Spire is the most important tech structure to defend because 1. Broodlord(BL) is essential for late game army composition vs Protoss. 2. It takes 100sec to make spire, additional 100sec to morph into Greater Spire =200sec to remake greater spire. Most other tech buildings take only 60 or so seconds to remake. 3. It costs 200 200 + 100 150 = 300mineral 350gas to remake. Gas cost is significantly higher than other tech buildings when you remake.
2nd one is probably the biggest reason. It also takes 34sec to morph from corruptor to BL, so it actually takes 200+34 =234sec=almost 4minutes before you can remake BL. Not having to worry about BL remax for as long as 4min is a huge advantage for Protoss. Sure, losing Spawning Pool, Roach Warren, or Infestation Pit hurts as well, but not nearly as badly in terms of both building time and cost.
Zerg Wall-in Mechanics + Show Spoiler +As simple as it sounds, walling-in your greater spire is the best and easy way to defend it from melee units. Without surface area, melee units such as Zealot/DT cannot attack it. Recently, some Zerg players started to do so. However, very few seem to understand walling mechanics in SC2. It is important to know that a 3X3 building DOES NOT occupy area covered by 3X3 square. It actually occupies area covered by the octagon inscribed in 3X3 square.(Footprint Type A in the image below) Spine crawlers and spore crawlers use even smaller octagon(Footprint Type B) unlike similar 2X2 pylon/depot which use Footprint Type A. ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/lezM8.png) Because corners of building grids are NOT blocked by buildings, relatively small units like Zealot/DT can get through in between badly placed 2 buildings, which sometimes go against intuition and graphics. Your walling experience with Protoss/Terran play does not help either because spine/spore are smaller than pylon/depot. After hundreds of experiments, I found some common combinations of buildings that fail to completely wall-in greater spire. Hole 4&5 in image must be counterintuitive to most players. ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/CWBVg.png) These wall-ins are probably good enough in real game situations. A hole that lets only 1 zealot attack is hardly a big problem. However, there is a better way to wall-in without having to invest more. When there is a better way, why bother trying suboptimal wall-ins?
Conclusion: Best way to wall-in Greater Spire + Show Spoiler +There are 3 ways to completely wall-in your greater spire that I could find. One is what I call “ Windmill Arrangement,” the best way. The other 2 are asymmetric way with spine/spore as a part of the wall. ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/WMKK7.png) In-game images Clockwise Windmill Arrangement + Show Spoiler +Counterclockwise Windmill Arrangement + Show Spoiler +With spine/overseer + Show Spoiler +Those 3X3 buildings looked like sails of a windmill with greater spire as its axis, so I thought windmill arrangement was a nice way to denote what I consider will be the standard play in future. Windmill arrangement is the best way because of several reasons: 1. No spine/spore is used as a part of the wall. Least health for 3X3 building is 750 for evolution chamber, which is still much higher than spine/spore(300/400). 850 health is standard for Zerg tech buildings with 1000 for Spawning pool being the exception and highest. 2. Any 3X3 building spawns 6 broodlings when it dies. These 6 broodlings buy time for as much as 8 seconds unlike spine/spore which doesn’t spawn any broodlings. Extractor doesn’t spawn broodlings, but gas location is impassable anyways. 3. One of the 4 3X3 buildings can be an extractor. In fact, I recommend using extractor as one of the 3X3 buildings because defense for greater spire around the wall-in also defends hive/mineral line/gas effectively. 4. If you do a build that makes a 3X3 building after spire anyways, then literally no additional investment is required to complete this wall-in. Baneling nest, Ultralisk Cavern, or 2nd Evolution Chamber comes to my mind for example. 5. Complete wall-in prevents protoss from target firing greater spire. If he does, then AI gets confused and zealots/DTs dance around the wall. Also, shift-click target firing doesn’t work well either. Shift-clicking one walling buliding first to greater spire second lets those 6 broodlings buy full 8 seconds before zealots/DTs can start attacking greater spire because shift-clicking beforehand prevents them from killing broodlings that push them back.
Possible Cons + Show Spoiler + Whenever there are pros, there are cons as well. However, I believe pros of windmill arrangement outvalue cons. Following are possible cons and my answer.
Con No.1: Your spire location becomes predictable once you prepare other buildings for it. When you want to do hidden mutalisk tech switch, then probably hiding your spire now is more important than making at better defendable location for later. Other than that, going broodlord in lategame ZvP is no secret. An observer or hallucinated phoenix can find a “hidden” spire location in your base quite easily as well.
Con No.2: Having multiple tech buildings at one location has a risk of losing them all together. I agree, but at the same time, you only need spine forest at that particular location rather than everywhere in your base. Also, non-greater spire tech buildings are much easier to rebuild. Losing them is not as big of a problem.
Con No.3: You need to invest in a 3X3 building to complete the wall-in after making spire. Yes. If you have no plan to make any more 3X3 buildings after spire, then it is the investment you wouldn’t have to make otherwise. I usually make 1 evolution chamber to complete the wall even if 3-3 upgrades are already done because evo chamber is the cheapest 3X3 building. In fact, evo chamber is cheaper than 1 spine crawler. I believe 1 evo chamber wall investment is more worth than 1 spine crawler at that stage of the game. If you are rich enough in mineral, making 2nd spawning pool isn’t that bad of an idea for extra 250 health and vs pool snipe.
Con No.4: When extractor is used as a part of the wall, a 3X3 building next to it partially blocks gas mining route. You always need to carefully choose clockwise windmill arrangement or counterclockwise one depending on the angle of the gas. Sometimes, wrong choice delays gas mining by a lot. I found that counterclockwise version works more often than clockwise version because of current map making tendency.
Experiment: Windmill Arrangement vs Exposed + Show Spoiler +As long as you have decent response, windmill arrangement + spines around are usually enough to deter small Zealot/DT attacks. However, greater spire does die if you don’t have enough spines for DPS or you couldn’t respond in time. So, let’s find out how many seconds windmill arrangement buys compared to exposed greater spire. ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/B8TM5.png) When only 2 zealots fit in vs greater spire at Step 2, then it dies in 48sec. (this happens more often) When 3 zealots managed to fit in vs greater spire at Step 2, then it dies in 38sec. Unlike 4 Zealots experiments that resulted in either 38sec or 48sec and nothing in between, 8 Zealots experiment results were more diverse. 34sec was the best record among them. Depending on the number of Zealots, they take around twice or 3 times more time to kill protected greater spire = about 20-35 sec additional time. As long as you have lings/roaches on your side of the map, it is usually enough time to get back in time. DTs significantly speed up the process, though. This is a little known fact, but not only do DTs have better DPS, but also DTs are smaller than Zealots which make them better when attacking from 1 side. At Step 2, DTs are far more likely to attack greater spire in trio than Zealots which usually work in duo and rarely in trio.
Final Thought + Show Spoiler + I do this windmill arrangement whenever my ZvP gets into lategame. I am nowhere near pro level, so my opponent is as terrible as myself. They don’t do zealot/DT harass as often as those pros. Even so, I hardly ever lose my greater spire when it does happen because this wall-in buys so much time for my horrible response time. Therefore, from my perspective, I have always thought pro Zerg players are just too lazy(?) to this simple sim city. I don’t know. There might be actually reasons not to do this, but from what I’ve seen, even pros lose greater spire way too easily with no wall-in or failed wall-in with spines.
I actually came up with this idea when I was playing a custom game called phantom mode. When I turtled in my base with 500 supply in 1v3 situation, my greater spire was sniped by DT warp-ins and I couldn’t remax fast enough because of it. Then, I started to do research on careful tech building placements, during which I found this to be very effective even on ladder.
I hope this helped some players. I did as extensive research as I could think of and my time allowed. Feedback/counter argument is much appreciated.
Orek's Articles/Guides + Show Spoiler +Last edit: 2013-03-07 15:32:02 |
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| jonaa Netherlands. August 10 2012 14:10. Posts 138 | Profile # |
| Honestly in ZvP I'm gna start putting my roach and evo in windmill clockwise whatever it is position so once i put down my spire i can full wall it with 2 more. It's a good idea I think losing your greater spire in ZvP can you lose many games. |
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Belial88 United States. August 10 2012 14:28. Posts 5217 | Profile Blog # |
I always do this. It's definitely worth making extra evo chambers to wall off the spire, and generally I'll put at least 5-10 spines around my greater spire and a bunch of evos in the lategame.
Cool charts though, I'm going to start staggering my evo's for that purpose. |
| | How to build a $500 i7-3770K Ultimate Computer:http://www.teamliquid.net/blogs/viewblog.php?topic_id=392709 ******** 100% Safe Razorless Delid Method! http://www.overclock.net/t/1376206/how-to-delid-your-ivy-bridge-cpu-with-out-a-razor-blade/0_100 |
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| ncsix August 10 2012 14:37. Posts 74 | Profile # |
Great work as usual orek! Definitely going to remember to do this more often. Zerg players in general can get pretty complacent with SIM city compared to the other races, even more so now with the queen patch.
Think you could put a diagram for a complete wall with a spore crawler thats walled in as well? That way, it also keeps DTs visible for the longest possible duration without needing an overseer in place.
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| Monsyphon Canada. August 10 2012 14:45. Posts 178 | Profile Blog # |
I thought this would just be a guy scoffing about how pros don't do "x", but this is much better, much more detailed and impressive.
Last edit: 2012-08-10 14:46:46 |
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| RiceAgainst United States. August 10 2012 14:49. Posts 1380 | Profile Blog # |
| Even though I don't play zerg, this is still a nice read. I always thought that pros were crazy for putting their greater spire between their nat and third sometimes but I figure that it had to do with simcity not being much of an option for zerg. Hopefully we'll see more pros doing this simcity, and when I do see it, I'll remember this! |
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| Danglars United States. August 10 2012 15:01. Posts 1923 | Profile Blog # |
| Nicely put man ... gonna try this laddering this week. |
| | MC HuK HerO Creator HWAITING || Go iS! || Great armies come from happy zealots, and happy zealots come from California! | |
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Belial88 United States. August 10 2012 15:03. Posts 5217 | Profile Blog # |
| I'll see if I can dig up replays where I've done this (i mean i do it every game, but an example where I put like 10+ spines down lol). I make over 100 spines by lategame in most of my match-ups, there's just no reason not to do it in extreme lategame, just like terran masses OC's, zerg should always pump up to 100 drones for a second so they can make 20 free spines. 20 spines around a far-off expo just makes it absolutely drop proof, making the immobility of broodlords a non-issue. |
| | How to build a $500 i7-3770K Ultimate Computer:http://www.teamliquid.net/blogs/viewblog.php?topic_id=392709 ******** 100% Safe Razorless Delid Method! http://www.overclock.net/t/1376206/how-to-delid-your-ivy-bridge-cpu-with-out-a-razor-blade/0_100 |
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| Bippzy United States. August 10 2012 15:11. Posts 1335 | Profile Blog # |
| Pro zergs should do this. Makes me wonder if it wouldn't be smarter to put it at the natural, since natural in general has to be defended with spines(sometimes) anyways. Very good guide. |
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| Orek August 10 2012 15:18. Posts 1391 | Profile # |
On August 10 2012 14:28 Belial88 wrote: I always do this. It's definitely worth making extra evo chambers to wall off the spire, and generally I'll put at least 5-10 spines around my greater spire and a bunch of evos in the lategame.
Cool charts though, I'm going to start staggering my evo's for that purpose.
"Stagger" is probably the word I was looking for. I couldn't come up with a word that could express the shape, and somehow "windmill" came to my mind first. I hope I am not the only one who thinks it looks like a windmill. |
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sewergoat United States. August 10 2012 15:49. Posts 97 | Profile # |
| so funny i was just thinking about this at work earlier today and thought i was a genius. good job for sharing it on tl and nice op! |
| | Silence is better than bullshit |
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| doggy Germany. August 10 2012 18:32. Posts 262 | Profile # |
| Thx for your work, ive thought about that many times but always forgot about it again after a while :o) |
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| Azera Singapore. August 10 2012 18:36. Posts 3374 | Profile Blog # | |
| | Trudge comfortably | Check out some glorious music made by TLers - http://bit.ly/QXYhdb , by intrigue. http://bit.ly/RTjpOR , by ohsea.toc. | |
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| Targe United Kingdom. August 10 2012 18:38. Posts 1755 | Profile Blog # |
| I'm guessing you have to make a building AFTER greater spire is morphed because you can't get a drone inside the ring created by the structures? |
| | Zelniq - you can avoid this DDoS problem if you increase your RAM. there is website to download more rams search TL to find it | Wax: fuck i forgot people can't read | Coach Park: We need miracle. We will make the miracle. Expect us and love us. |
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| Advocado Denmark. August 10 2012 18:42. Posts 844 | Profile Blog # |
| This is a cool as fuck guide to walling in your greater spire correctly. Nicely done! Last edit: 2012-08-10 18:42:35 |
| | http://www.justin.tv/advocadosc2 | |
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| RustySpork United Kingdom. August 10 2012 19:16. Posts 48 | Profile # |
| this in very in depth, TL needs more guides like this! Thx very much for putting in the time to teach us fellow zergs this nice trick |
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| IMPrime United States. August 10 2012 19:26. Posts 449 | Profile # |
| i don't even play zerg (i play terran so this literally does not apply to me at all), but this is a nice trick |
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ThePlayer33 Australia. August 11 2012 13:30. Posts 2377 | Profile # | |
| | | Idra | YuGiOh | Leenock | Coca | |
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Belial88 United States. August 11 2012 13:53. Posts 5217 | Profile Blog # |
http://drop.sc/236516
here's a recent game I played where i did a sim city, as well as planting tons of spines at my 5th base.
It always amazes me why pros never just go balls out and plant 20 spines at a far off expo, instead preferring to lose it to a single drop of marines about 5 times. Especially on antiga shipyard. It's free for zerg, just make 100 drones, and walla, 30 free spines.
I'll try to find a replay where the sim city is actually an issue though, in this game the toss never did a warp prism harass, dts, or even went to my 5th with anything so there isn't any real practice to it.
It's also nice to lay a creep tumor in your main with a queen with excess energy when it's super lategame hive stage, so you can better plant spines and evo's and such. |
| | How to build a $500 i7-3770K Ultimate Computer:http://www.teamliquid.net/blogs/viewblog.php?topic_id=392709 ******** 100% Safe Razorless Delid Method! http://www.overclock.net/t/1376206/how-to-delid-your-ivy-bridge-cpu-with-out-a-razor-blade/0_100 |
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| Acer.Scarlett` Korea (South). August 11 2012 14:22. Posts 734 | Profile # |
Nice, simple guide. Definately gonna try to do this in ZvPs from now on (just been lazy about it ><)
On August 11 2012 13:53 Belial88 wrote:http://drop.sc/236516here's a recent game I played where i did a sim city, as well as planting tons of spines at my 5th base. It always amazes me why pros never just go balls out and plant 20 spines at a far off expo, instead preferring to lose it to a single drop of marines about 5 times. Especially on antiga shipyard. It's free for zerg, just make 100 drones, and walla, 30 free spines. I'll try to find a replay where the sim city is actually an issue though, in this game the toss never did a warp prism harass, dts, or even went to my 5th with anything so there isn't any real practice to it. It's also nice to lay a creep tumor in your main with a queen with excess energy when it's super lategame hive stage, so you can better plant spines and evo's and such.
It would be wonderful if you could spare 3000 minerals to make spines per base in a pro game, wouldn't it ?Last edit: 2012-08-11 14:22:59 |
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