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| forsakeNXE Germany. August 10 2012 21:35. Posts 171 | Profile # |
Hey guys,
i am master terran around 900 points atm and as you may or may not have read my Bio Guide on TL i play exclusivly bio in TvZ.
I really think that there may be more agressive moves i could include in that play but you really have to be safe against allins.
That may not be that hard, if you could scout them relativly easily, which, at least in my opinion you can't, especially if zerg is smart and hides e.g. the banelings somewhere where you do not see them.
Also with 1 gas and your scout that he pulls out after 100 gas only to put them drones back in, once your scout dies, you have really no way of telling that an allin comes for sure.
Additionally the timings range from like 5:25 (Roaches) to like 8:30 (most common) to like 10 Minutes for a really, really high baneling count [remember i do not have tanks  ]).
Also it is optional to take a third and just use the larva and make me as a Terran player think that that's big macro play, and even a late third can mean macro so it's not always "oh yeah no third around 8:30? Well allin is coming!".
Additionally with the range buff for the queen a good player will kill the scv before it even makes the way up somewhere and will not regret creepspread so that's no tell either (but maybe the biggst one, but even on masters creepspread can be just not good cause zerg has not the multitaking to do it).
So to sum things up:
Either you get really lucky with a) a Scan or b) a SCV scout and spot trillions of lings.
Or you have to take the risk to move out, get sourrounded and lose everything cause you were out on the map while he had alot of lings and you lose your whole army, which means, you are not able to defend the allin.
So the question (finally) is: Is there any way, timing, possibility etc. to reliably scout an allin in TvZ, and HOW do I do that, while trying to be agressive and out on the map?
Yeah sure i can take the towers and put like 4 Marines on each and if he cleares them out i have lost like 6-8 Marines and i have to know that something is up cause that's too much lings for that point in time, but 6-8 Marines are really important to hold that bust also and are no threats for queens either to deny some creep tumors, so there have to be more marines which leads to either having alot of them out or only 2-4 for watchtower control.
I know, I maybe reapeatead myself a bit to often but i guess you get the point 
Thanks for some input, appreciate it!Last edit: 2012-08-10 21:36:33 |
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| Filter Canada. August 10 2012 21:38. Posts 591 | Profile Blog # |
| Scanning the main and gas counting him around the 7minute mark is a great way to do it. Anything more than a three total mined gas signals an all in with banes usually. Sometimes the simplest solution is the easiest. |
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| DerFreemind Germany. August 10 2012 21:49. Posts 41 | Profile # |
| I open with reapers agaisnt zerg! You get all the scouting information you need and sometimes you can kill 1-2 drones with it. Than pull out of the base a sacrefise the reaper in the second attempt around 6 min. The other solution is to put your reaper at the tower, at maps like shakruas you can safe him by jumping on the nearby cliffs. If you see speedlings before 6 min, the chance for zerg agression is very high. |
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| bmoneyAK August 12 2012 16:04. Posts 79 | Profile # |
Hey Enemyy,
I think it's tough when you play bio since I don't think you can have early map control without risking your army. Here are some suggestions:
*Filter's scanning idea is great. If the guy isn't on 3 bases he is probably up to something, so a scan probably isn't going to be the end of it. If it saves you a loss to an all in 10% of the time, it's probably paying for itself in terms of ladder points.
*I don't know your bio build but perhaps it's possible to get a single hellion out
 erFree's reaper idea is good. You are probably getting a tech lab anyways and a reaper is not a bad investment.
I think that you could incorporate some scouting into your build and then making scanning the backup plan. Maybe do something like this.
*look for 3rd
*poke with reaper
*scan if no 3rd and you can't get in or reaper gets surrounded.
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| monk United States. August 12 2012 16:07. Posts 6990 | Profile Blog # | |
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| RiSkysc2 August 12 2012 16:08. Posts 555 | Profile # |
| derped Last edit: 2012-08-12 16:08:46 |
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| Seinken United States. August 12 2012 18:32. Posts 40 | Profile # |
You essentially have to scout 2 things, his 3rd and his standing army. If he has no standing army and no 3rd, he's probably just playing macro. If he has no 3rd and a good chunk of army, 50/50 chance of an all in.
I feel like TvZ is a lot about guessing, but it also depends a ton on your build, early medivacs can force him to show his hand early. I also think that terran should be playing very greedy economically (3cc before gas even) and use 3x3 buildings to wall off, you will basically hold off any all in with pure marine and get to secure a third base at the same time.
If you do a gasless FE try making 6 marines and pushing out. 6 marines = 1 shot lings and can force a ton more which can at the very least do damage to his drone count, but can also force him to all in (you'll 'know' what he's doing at least). A little bit of stutter stepping goes a long way. |
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| JonIrenicus Italy. August 12 2012 18:47. Posts 302 | Profile Blog # |
Terran master there.
May I ask you why don't you use one lifted rax to scout? |
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| ODKStevez Ireland. August 12 2012 19:02. Posts 1176 | Profile # |
| If you are going bio why not use the factory? Zerg anti air is restricted to queens early. |
| | Luppa <3 "Raidcall: 5789139". |
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 Belial88 United States. August 12 2012 19:17. Posts 5217 | Profile Blog # |
Scout the third timing with an SCV (or marine). If by ~35 supply no third is taken, be very suspicious. Send that SCV toward the natural - if there is creep spread and extra queens or a spine, that's indicative of macro play, not an all-in. I don't know if gas counting is a reliable way to see if an all-in is coming though, since zerg till take 2 gas for macro play and he may take it in the main or natural, and I think a scan is a little too costly and too much of a gamble to scout with.
If you aren't going to use hellions to follow-up to make sure zerg isn't making roaches or pumping lings, then you should put on some sort of bio pressure to see what zerg is doing, like a couple marines and an scv or two. I think you really just gotta go hellions unless you plan to all-in off 2 base, in which case you dont care if zerg does an all-in.
zerg having speed on his lings early on is usually indicative of an all-in, probably always on ladder (stastically speaking), in which case I'd scan to see if he's going 2 base quick lair muta or ling/bane bust.
But as soon as it's suspicious, I'd recommend scanning (no third taken by 35 supply with scv scout, not extra queens, speed on lings).
Any all-in that takes a third should be held easily with whatever your doing and reacting to it, by the time zerg takes a third you should have a little presence on the map, if not hellions, then a couple marines. I don't think early pressure is a great idea as terran, but you should send a few marines, if not hellions, around 40+ to make sure nothing is coming, even if zerg took a third, so you can throw down some bunkers real quickly. Last edit: 2012-08-12 19:19:10 |
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| AceLight New Zealand. August 12 2012 19:36. Posts 199 | Profile # |
On August 12 2012 19:17 Belial88 wrote:
Scout the third timing with an SCV (or marine). If by ~35 supply no third is taken, be very suspicious. Send that SCV toward the natural - if there is creep spread and extra queens or a spine, that's indicative of macro play, not an all-in. I don't know if gas counting is a reliable way to see if an all-in is coming though, since zerg till take 2 gas for macro play and he may take it in the main or natural, and I think a scan is a little too costly and too much of a gamble to scout with.
If you aren't going to use hellions to follow-up to make sure zerg isn't making roaches or pumping lings, then you should put on some sort of bio pressure to see what zerg is doing, like a couple marines and an scv or two. I think you really just gotta go hellions unless you plan to all-in off 2 base, in which case you dont care if zerg does an all-in.
zerg having speed on his lings early on is usually indicative of an all-in, probably always on ladder (stastically speaking), in which case I'd scan to see if he's going 2 base quick lair muta or ling/bane bust.
But as soon as it's suspicious, I'd recommend scanning (no third taken by 35 supply with scv scout, not extra queens, speed on lings).
Any all-in that takes a third should be held easily with whatever your doing and reacting to it, by the time zerg takes a third you should have a little presence on the map, if not hellions, then a couple marines. I don't think early pressure is a great idea as terran, but you should send a few marines, if not hellions, around 40+ to make sure nothing is coming, even if zerg took a third, so you can throw down some bunkers real quickly.
And Belial once again comes in a beats this thread.
Anyway, peronally I just throw a scan. Then again, I've probably died to roach-bane all ins more times then anyone so.. |
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| jlai Hong Kong. August 12 2012 19:58. Posts 63 | Profile # |
| Actually a good Zerg would even deny your scouting of his third I don't understand why Zerg wouldn't send just 2 lings to kill your scout of his third if he knows you are not going hellions. If a third is unknown, would it be better just to add 2 blink bunkers for satefy rather than throwing down a scan or two. |
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| dohgg August 13 2012 00:33. Posts 224 | Profile # |
For the love of god! Dont scan!
scan = 270 minerals, you can set up 3 bunkers blindly for almost the same cost, and get 225 minerals back after salvaging them on 10-11 min.
Also, scaning doesnt insuring you anything, Hell! think about this scenario, you made a MONEY lucky scan, and saw him intending into allining you - he saw your scan and channged his plan, didnt even morphed banlings, and just started drone hardcore, while you on the other side - wasted 270 minerals on a scan, plus, 300 minerals on bunkers, and now you sit in a turtle mode behind your bunkers, and not even doing the timing pushes you intended to do, while he just drone hard and even getting 3rd and 4th.
A zerg allin have few indication, and obviously there are couple of allins, some might hit on 6:30 and some 9:30.
Scouting SCV:
If you scout a very early gas, which indicates for speed ASAP, theres a good chance for an 6:30 (15 drones) bane bust allin, since a very quick gas isnt common on the current metagame i will advice getting a saftey bunker and send 1 scv (NOT marine) into nearest xelnaga.
NOTE: the 6:30 bane bust will not have queens, you can keep the scv near his base to check for that if you really suspicious.
If you scout abit later gas, theres always the chance of abit of roach pressure, i wouldnt say its a must for setting a blind bunker unless its part of your build, but controling the xelnaga is important!
Indications of allin / 2 base mutas:
1. obviously, sneak a marine into his 3rd and check for that (try keep it hidden) - a standard 3rd time is 6:30, the later the time goes on w/o a 3rd the more you should be aware, and set up "BLIND" bunkers.
2. Lack of creep spread - indicates for less of his intendions to go into long macro game.
3. I'll advice to suicide your marine on his 3rd on 8:30-9:00 into scouting his natural -
* 2+ spines + no creep spread + no evos + 2 gas = probably 2 base mutas
* no spines + no creep spread + no evos + 1 or no gas = probably roach bane allin
EDIT:
With pure bio w/o hellions or banshee you dont have much of an abilty to really control the map and scout his front - You do, relay alot on that 1 marine on his 3rdLast edit: 2012-08-13 00:38:45 |
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| iAmJeffReY United States. August 13 2012 02:15. Posts 3428 | Profile # |
Keep an scv at or near their third. Stay on the map and in their face at their creep until they run you out. Drop a scan to see tech. And just keep units there in the ready.
http://drop.sc/237037 Here's an example I had last night on ohana against a 1200pt zerg that did a roach bane ling bust.
Kept SCV at his third, kept units outside his base. Saw little to no creep spread = fewer queens. Saw no units. No third, no lair. Knew all in was incoming, so I drop bunkers, finish the wall off, and just spread and wait.
scan = 270 minerals, you can set up 3 bunkers blindly for almost the same cost, and get 225 minerals back after salvaging them on 10-11 min.
It seems like not a lot of minerals, but it cuts into a lot of tightly timed builds to drop 3 bunkers and still get the tech or amount of units you normally do. I never see a hurt in a single scan, as I usually waste 2-3 on their massive amount of creep spread at the same time against 4-6-8 queen openings.
Terran master there.
May I ask you why don't you use one lifted rax to scout?
Probably because he doesn't go mech, and again, it cuts into unit production and to be useful would have to be proxied and then lifted and floated over. Can't really be from your base, unless you like 1 rax FE then lift the rax and drop 3 more. So it's like powering from 4 rax, without the 4th rax.Last edit: 2012-08-13 02:18:58 |
| | iAmJeffReY.267 /// http://www.twitch.tv/iamjeffrey_ |
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| mynameisgreat11 August 13 2012 02:20. Posts 599 | Profile # |
1- Like everyone said, keep tabs on 3rd timing. No 3rd by 6:00 = suspicious
2- Early gas before pool. Not guarantee all-in, but means its in the cards and you should watch out.
3- Keep an scv or marine or two constantly running around map, at towers, etc. It will probably die, but if it dies seeing 30 speedlings at 6:00, bunker up.
4- keep tabs right outside your natural. Zerg usually stage outside of the nat to rally their lings to their roaches and morph banelings. It will give you a couple of seconds to react, but if you don't scout it until then, you're still probably screwed.
5- Scan. if you see 2 gases, assume it. Maybe you even get lucky and see the baneling nest or warren.
6- Bad creep spread often means all-in. Last edit: 2012-08-13 02:21:13 |
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| mynameisgreat11 August 13 2012 02:23. Posts 599 | Profile # |
On August 13 2012 00:33 dohgg wrote:
For the love of god! Dont scan!
scan = 270 minerals, you can set up 3 bunkers blindly for almost the same cost, and get 225 minerals back after salvaging them on 10-11 min.
Also, scaning doesnt insuring you anything, Hell! think about this scenario, you made a MONEY lucky scan, and saw him intending into allining you - he saw your scan and channged his plan, didnt even morphed banlings, and just started drone hardcore, while you on the other side - wasted 270 minerals on a scan, plus, 300 minerals on bunkers, and now you sit in a turtle mode behind your bunkers, and not even doing the timing pushes you intended to do, while he just drone hard and even getting 3rd and 4th.
A zerg allin have few indication, and obviously there are couple of allins, some might hit on 6:30 and some 9:30.
Scouting SCV:
If you scout a very early gas, which indicates for speed ASAP, theres a good chance for an 6:30 (15 drones) bane bust allin, since a very quick gas isnt common on the current metagame i will advice getting a saftey bunker and send 1 scv (NOT marine) into nearest xelnaga.
NOTE: the 6:30 bane bust will not have queens, you can keep the scv near his base to check for that if you really suspicious.
If you scout abit later gas, theres always the chance of abit of roach pressure, i wouldnt say its a must for setting a blind bunker unless its part of your build, but controling the xelnaga is important!
Indications of allin / 2 base mutas:
1. obviously, sneak a marine into his 3rd and check for that (try keep it hidden) - a standard 3rd time is 6:30, the later the time goes on w/o a 3rd the more you should be aware, and set up "BLIND" bunkers.
2. Lack of creep spread - indicates for less of his intendions to go into long macro game.
3. I'll advice to suicide your marine on his 3rd on 8:30-9:00 into scouting his natural -
* 2+ spines + no creep spread + no evos + 2 gas = probably 2 base mutas
* no spines + no creep spread + no evos + 1 or no gas = probably roach bane allin
EDIT:
With pure bio w/o hellions or banshee you dont have much of an abilty to really control the map and scout his front - You do, relay alot on that 1 marine on his 3rd
I disagree. Don't scan blindly, but if you are totally in the dark, or suspicious, a scan can save you. Its not a guarantee, but I can't count how many games a scan has saved my ass.
Greedy play is well and good, but it sucks when some minor thing like a scan could have easily won you the game.
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| JonIrenicus Italy. August 13 2012 02:39. Posts 302 | Profile Blog # |
On August 13 2012 02:15 iAmJeffReY wrote:Keep an scv at or near their third. Stay on the map and in their face at their creep until they run you out. Drop a scan to see tech. And just keep units there in the ready. http://drop.sc/237037 Here's an example I had last night on ohana against a 1200pt zerg that did a roach bane ling bust. Kept SCV at his third, kept units outside his base. Saw little to no creep spread = fewer queens. Saw no units. No third, no lair. Knew all in was incoming, so I drop bunkers, finish the wall off, and just spread and wait.
Show nested quote +scan = 270 minerals, you can set up 3 bunkers blindly for almost the same cost, and get 225 minerals back after salvaging them on 10-11 min.
It seems like not a lot of minerals, but it cuts into a lot of tightly timed builds to drop 3 bunkers and still get the tech or amount of units you normally do. I never see a hurt in a single scan, as I usually waste 2-3 on their massive amount of creep spread at the same time against 4-6-8 queen openings.
Show nested quote +
Terran master there.
May I ask you why don't you use one lifted rax to scout?
Probably because he doesn't go mech, and again, it cuts into unit production and to be useful would have to be proxied and then lifted and floated over. Can't really be from your base, unless you like 1 rax FE then lift the rax and drop 3 more. So it's like powering from 4 rax, without the 4th rax.
Understood, but isn't sac a mule worse?
If you can't use the rax, use the factory, in case you go pure bio. |
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| iAmJeffReY United States. August 13 2012 02:48. Posts 3428 | Profile # |
On August 13 2012 02:39 JonIrenicus wrote:
Show nested quote +On August 13 2012 02:15 iAmJeffReY wrote:Keep an scv at or near their third. Stay on the map and in their face at their creep until they run you out. Drop a scan to see tech. And just keep units there in the ready. http://drop.sc/237037 Here's an example I had last night on ohana against a 1200pt zerg that did a roach bane ling bust. Kept SCV at his third, kept units outside his base. Saw little to no creep spread = fewer queens. Saw no units. No third, no lair. Knew all in was incoming, so I drop bunkers, finish the wall off, and just spread and wait.
scan = 270 minerals, you can set up 3 bunkers blindly for almost the same cost, and get 225 minerals back after salvaging them on 10-11 min.
It seems like not a lot of minerals, but it cuts into a lot of tightly timed builds to drop 3 bunkers and still get the tech or amount of units you normally do. I never see a hurt in a single scan, as I usually waste 2-3 on their massive amount of creep spread at the same time against 4-6-8 queen openings.
Terran master there.
May I ask you why don't you use one lifted rax to scout?
Probably because he doesn't go mech, and again, it cuts into unit production and to be useful would have to be proxied and then lifted and floated over. Can't really be from your base, unless you like 1 rax FE then lift the rax and drop 3 more. So it's like powering from 4 rax, without the 4th rax.
Understood, but isn't sac a mule worse? If you can't use the rax, use the factory, in case you go pure bio.
Has to be proxied to make it in time, more often than not. And you waste scans on creep anyways. Except more roach bane don't have mass amount of queens, so not a lot of creep. Therefore, the scan used on creep can now be burned to confirm you are being allin'ed. |
| | iAmJeffReY.267 /// http://www.twitch.tv/iamjeffrey_ |
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| bmoneyAK August 13 2012 04:58. Posts 79 | Profile # |
Belial, when you talk about checking for a third by 35 supply, about what game time is that at? I presume that you are talking about Z supply and not T and I'm not sure if it is same or different.
Mynameisgreat nailed it regarding scanning: use it as a last resort, but it's better than being finding out that an all in is coming by banes blowing up your wall. I think it's also important that we are concerned with the advantage relative to our opponent. If we are playing macro and he is suspiciously on 2 base, scanning may not put us at a disadvantage.
Jeffrey, what are your thoughts about going reactor hellions before or after CC? I watched your replay and you did it in the more classic style. At around 8:40 the Z was up 13 drones and used a cool criscrossing OL scout to see that you had a bunch of production buildings. I think the correct response would have been to get a third and be ahead. What do you think? |
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| monkybone August 13 2012 05:19. Posts 2918 | Profile # |
| My answer: don't rely on it. Go with a safe build like FE into banshees while scouting what you can with the rax scv and hellions as they pop. Being diligent with this is as safe as any precaution you can take. Also, don't waste scans. Last edit: 2012-08-13 05:20:14 |
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