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| Jarob22 August 11 2012 00:20. Posts 8 | Profile # |
Hi, first poster here, just reposting a thread that I didn't post properly last time, and I'm sorry for that!
I've been playing 5 games a day for the last 2 months and have been stuck at around 9th-4th place silver for the last month. This has really demotivated me to the point where I can't think of any point to continue =/ Does anyone have any advice/opinions/whatever that might help? I'm protoss, btw.
I watch the Day9 dailies whenever there are vP or Pv dailies on, and I watch tournies as well. The one thing I don't do is re-watch my own replays for probably 2 reasons - one, it feels too much like work rather than play to actually sit down after every match and re-watch them, and two, I don't know what to look for, how to analyse them and what to do with any data I collect.
Recent replays:
+ Show Spoiler +
Thanks in advance. |
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| MrLlama United States. August 11 2012 00:45. Posts 446 | Profile # |
I wrote a guide that I believe you could find helpful
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=343501
Being in silver I'd say continue to go back and watch your replays to see when you're not macroing. Not just when you're not macroing, but what exactly is the CAUSE for you to not be macroing. It could be because you're busy in an engagement, microing a scouting unit, setting up your army in positions for a flank, etc...
Macro needs to come before any of these instances so if you find yourself missing warp cycles and such because you're busy, make note of that and start to just focus on the warp cycles. (there's better explanations in the guide)
I'd also say you need to throw down more structures. If you ever start banking money, put down more gateways. Once you get better you'll be able to optimally spend on limited structures but for now it does you no good to sit with 2K bank and only a 7 gateways on 2 bases because that's how a pro does it. Throw down 5 more gateways and spend that money and you'll start to win more games  |
| | www.youtube.com/mrllamasc << Casting & Analysis Videos |
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| Probe1 United States. August 11 2012 00:55. Posts 16445 | Profile Blog # |
After watching three of the replays I've found a reoccurring theme. You have way too little production structures and never use your chronoboost. Try to use 3 gateways per base as a minimum rule of thumb. When you expand you need 6 gates up asap and be more mindful of upgrades. Also, watch your own replays in the future. It's a bit funny to say " it feels too much like work rather than play" but then ask people to do it for you.
You don't have to watch replays after every game. The only time I do that is if there was something I completely didn't understand or a question I immediately wanted to know the answer to. But you should sit down and watch your replays at some point.
When watching ask yourself, How did I win/lose? Did I have too small of an army or the wrong units? How could I have had a bigger or better army? Was it positioning? How could I have positioned better?
Honestly, I would try to do something different. I would pick a timing attack for each race and do it every time. It will help you to practice executing a build correctly and there's less guesswork to it opposed to a freeform macro/respond to my opponent game. If set out to do a blink all in every game, you'll know you have to have 4 gateways by 6 minutes and 7 gateways by 8 minutes with blink and +2 on the way. It's a lot easier to follow a build than try to come up with your own style.
Gl, and please watch your own replays if you ask others to watch too.
+ Show Spoiler +PvT on Antiga- you had way too few gateways and missed your opponents army moving out. You had full energy on both nexii but didn't use it to chrono out of your three (and eventually 4) gateways. You needed way more.
PvZ on Antiga- Your opponent nydus'd the crap out of you. Again you had way way too few gateways. Try to aim for at least 6 on two base. I'm sure you realized already that you need to cover your main with pylons for vision so you can instantly react to a nydus. What you didn't respond to was your opponent never taking a third. If Zerg has no third by 5 minutes you need to start checking the gold bases and alternate spots with a probe or observer or whatever. If you were aiming for a blink timing attack you need at least 6 gateways and it needs to hit way faster.
PvZ on Condemned- you scouted the natural and then left. You need to stay at the zergs third and try to block it with a pylon if its fast, or know if he's going to stay on 2 bases. You didn't have that information until much later. Again, you didn't get gateways fast enough and when you did you didn't chronoboost them at all. You ended up floating a shitload of resources with no upgrades and no real tech other than DTs and immortals, neither of which would be overwhelmingly useful against ling muta. You had the upper hand a couple of times but didn't attack and let your opponent recover. Finally, you had no mothership and no way of dealing with brood lords and no 4th base. |
| | 우정호 KT_VIOLET 1988 - 2012 While we are postponing, life speeds by | |
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| Typho0n Canada. August 11 2012 01:03. Posts 276 | Profile Blog # |
On August 11 2012 00:45 MrLlama wrote:I wrote a guide that I believe you could find helpful http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=343501Being in silver I'd say continue to go back and watch your replays to see when you're not macroing. Not just when you're not macroing, but what exactly is the CAUSE for you to not be macroing. It could be because you're busy in an engagement, microing a scouting unit, setting up your army in positions for a flank, etc... Macro needs to come before any of these instances so if you find yourself missing warp cycles and such because you're busy, make note of that and start to just focus on the warp cycles. (there's better explanations in the guide) I'd also say you need to throw down more structures. If you ever start banking money, put down more gateways. Once you get better you'll be able to optimally spend on limited structures but for now it does you no good to sit with 2K bank and only a 7 gateways on 2 bases because that's how a pro does it. Throw down 5 more gateways and spend that money and you'll start to win more games
I think this is very good advice for someone at silver. You really dont have to look at the little things until you have a solid macro foundation.
Specifically speaking. I watched your 1v1 on antiga (it was a PvT). I noticed your chrono boosts slipped right after you chronoed your warpgate tech. Use some of those chronos on your probes (assuming no pressure from the T) and you'll see how quickly ahead in worker count you get.
Also dont lose your first stalker that easily (you lose it around 6:37). You need that alive to see when hes leaving his base and his unit count. So a little poke up to see his bunker and run back would have been sufficient.
I may be wrong on this (so any actual P users correct me if I'm wrong) but I feel that you got your robotics facility way too late (since you were playing passively). If I saw a T go fast expo I would probably go 1 gate robo and then throw down more gates if I had to. That lets you get out that observer earlier to see what he's up to.
But ya the main problem here was your slacking macro. You were floating 1 k a lot of the time and that's essentially why you lost and what you should be focusing on improving. gl!
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| Jarob22 August 11 2012 01:17. Posts 8 | Profile # |
Wow, a lot of responses there.
First off, to MrLlama - that's a very..unusual guide right there, I'm not sure I'd feel comfortable playing matches with *just* stalkers and zealots...although I will give it a go. Moar macro is always an issue, though I understand with your only stalker/zealot compo it will be a lot easier to do this
@Probe1: If I'm going to follow MrLlama's guide (only stalker/zealot) what sort of timing attacks should I try vP/T/Z? Thanks for the analysis, and sorry for the rather hypocritical attitude, I've always approached sc2 as a game to be enjoyed and not to have it feel like work, though I guess if I want to get into gold and higher I'll need to do some actual work.
@Typho0n: Thanks for the analysis - after the early-mid game, what should I use chronos on? Just keep chronoing robos, gates, or what?
Thanks all so far! |
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| Probe1 United States. August 11 2012 01:20. Posts 16445 | Profile Blog # |
| Think of it this way: If you learn what you do wrong you won't have to relearn the same lessons again and again. The PvZ build I was referring to was this one. |
| | 우정호 KT_VIOLET 1988 - 2012 While we are postponing, life speeds by | |
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| Typho0n Canada. August 11 2012 01:27. Posts 276 | Profile Blog # |
| I would probably say the best place to spend your chronos is on upgrades. Once you toss down those forges you can fly ahead in upgrades. It's pretty important that you stay ahead of T's upgrades. You can also use them for research, like zealot leg speed and colossi range. Using chrono on robos and gates are ok too. Right now using chrono on anything is better than not using it at all haha. You'll start to get an idea where you need to put the chronos after you gain a bit more experience. |
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| LJ August 11 2012 01:34. Posts 203 | Profile # |
I watched I think 5 of the replays, and I was in a similar position not that long ago playing protoss.
I think you should try some tactics where you aim to win rather than just play out a long game and see who comes out on top.
i think against terran you need to get Collossus out faster so you have a few before they are at your front door with medivacs etc, If you put the robo bay down as soon as the robo is finished instead of making so many sentries this should be easy.
There is a 2 base Collosus atack against the 1 rax fast expand which if executed even half decent should kill anyone you play against, im sure there is a guide on here but the jist of it is you atttack at about 10 minutes maybe more with 2 + Collossus beofre they have any vikings and maybe only a couple of medivacs.
Againsts Zerg, I found that if they get 3 bases quick then I either have to kill the third or expand really quickly myself. But even then it is still a coin flip. There are lot's of 2 base attacks that are really worth practising the one where you get about 2 or 3 fast immortals after FFE is very strong, i think there is a guide on here by a chap called remark it is very good |
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| CallMeLukas United States. August 11 2012 01:40. Posts 32 | Profile # |
I watched two of your PvZs, (platinum zerg here) and a common problem I found with your play was the construction and use of gateways. You built your second, third, fourth, etc.. gateway too late and didn't use them enough. So basically, you have a macro problem. Build units! Build STUFF.
Also, try to keep an eye on the minimap. The game where you got nydused could have been easily held off. You spotted it as soon as it started building.
The next game on Condemned you scouted the Zerg go for a super fast third. Instead of doing a two base timing or something like you should have, you opted to go for your third base 10 minutes later. There was no point in trying to play an economic game when he had that fast of a third and absolutely no aggression from you.
Basic list:
-Use gates, build units more often
-Don't float too much money!
-Watch your supply, particularly around 18
-Your probe production was good, I thought. Sadly, that is only half of the macro game. You didn't build up an army til really late.
-Look for times to attack
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| Jarob22 August 11 2012 02:16. Posts 8 | Profile # |
| MrLlama - regarding your only zealot/stalker mix, in PvP that isn't really an option: immos are so strong vs stalkers I'm just putting myself at a heavy disadvantage early game =/ |
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| Salient United States. August 11 2012 02:33. Posts 335 | Profile # |
Find practice partners and play many custom games with them. You can give one-another feedback and advice. Also, it might be useful to work on flawlessly executing a simple strategy at first. For example, keep 4 gating until you can get your first warp in at 5:40 right at the enemy ramp plus your zealot and stalker and without getting supply blocked.
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=344238Last edit: 2012-08-11 02:40:08 |
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| MrLlama United States. August 11 2012 02:57. Posts 446 | Profile # |
"PVP - Same as PVT but add a 2nd assimilator at 25 and a Robotics facility at 31"
If you look at the Race specific for PvP in bronze/silver, you'll see I do recommend getting the Robotics facility because I know immortals are quite big in the match up.
I think I added the race specific match ups after I wrote the initial part though so it says only stalker zealot though I meant to add immos in PvP (which is why I have a robo fac in the build), apologies. |
| | www.youtube.com/mrllamasc << Casting & Analysis Videos |
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| craziekev Canada. August 11 2012 03:31. Posts 61 | Profile # |
| Going back to what you can use chrono on mid game .... - I always follow: If you see a moving light blue line under the health bar, chrono it. :D |
| | a good defense makes a great offense |
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| daralharb United States. August 11 2012 04:27. Posts 49 | Profile # |
I know that it sounds like a broken record but macro macro MACRO. Always be producing probes, never get supply blocked and always be producing from your gates/robo/whatever.
Keep your money low, if you have 2k minerals in the bank, that's 2k minerals that could be on the ground.
I would recommend watching filter sc's "Bronze to Masters" even though he hasn't done protoss yet but to understand how you can roll people effectivly just by having solid macro (in the demonstration games he doesn't scout or micro).
I would recommend learning a fast expand build and going from there. Once you learn how to hold off early pressure, you'll find that you are ahead economically and are set up for the mid/late game. Being able to hold off the early pressure will put you miles ahead of the 1 basers, cheesers and all-inners.
From personal experience, once I figured out that no matter what, I'm going to out macro my opponent. I went on a 14 game win streak (as toss) and got promoted to gold.
Hope my 2 cents helped, now go forth and crush some faces |
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| Jarob22 August 11 2012 04:58. Posts 8 | Profile # |
| I assume if I'm going to go stalker/zealot I need to win the game within 15 mins, right? That comp just won't stand up to late game comps... |
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| King of Blades United States. August 11 2012 07:04. Posts 77 | Profile Blog # |
| It stands up perfectly to lategame comps when you have 200/200 stalker/zealot and they have 120/130 colossus/sentry/zealot/stalker that they don't have the micro to use properly, and when they try to micro them anyways, their macro goes to hell. |
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| SideAffect Canada. August 11 2012 08:25. Posts 9 | Profile # |
Would a 3gate expand be the safest vs all the races for this? Has (or could) anyone just post a replay of themselves doing a safe fast expand vs the AI? Filter's benchmarks are great for terran and zerg with nice safe builds, but I'm not quite sure if mine are great for protoss.
Also this may be stupid but I know with Terran it is just always produce out of your buildings and zerg it's drone hard until you need units (or more or less that's the ideal) but with protoss I notice that especially early game players don't hit their cycles and don't necessarily produce out of their gateways at the start. Is there a fundamental difference between how unit producing mechanics work with protoss and terran, or is that more advanced play that should be ignored and you just always produce out of your gateways/ cycles from warpgates?
Hope that makes sense. Thanks.
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| | "Let us celebrate our new arrangement with the adding of chocolate to milk" - Homer Simpson |
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| Jarob22 August 11 2012 09:43. Posts 8 | Profile # |
On August 11 2012 07:04 King of Blades wrote:
It stands up perfectly to lategame comps when you have 200/200 stalker/zealot and they have 120/130 colossus/sentry/zealot/stalker that they don't have the micro to use properly, and when they try to micro them anyways, their macro goes to hell.
Maybe this sounds stupid, but how (if we pretend he doesn't have sentries and just has colossus) does the opponent need to micro? Colossus are easy to 1-a along with the stalkers, and if I wanted to win vs a colossus army, I'd need to blink in close and target fire, meaning a fair bit of micro. |
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| MrLlama United States. August 11 2012 11:54. Posts 446 | Profile # |
On August 11 2012 09:43 Jarob22 wrote:
Show nested quote +On August 11 2012 07:04 King of Blades wrote:
It stands up perfectly to lategame comps when you have 200/200 stalker/zealot and they have 120/130 colossus/sentry/zealot/stalker that they don't have the micro to use properly, and when they try to micro them anyways, their macro goes to hell.
Maybe this sounds stupid, but how (if we pretend he doesn't have sentries and just has colossus) does the opponent need to micro? Colossus are easy to 1-a along with the stalkers, and if I wanted to win vs a colossus army, I'd need to blink in close and target fire, meaning a fair bit of micro.
not when you simply outmacro him.
that's the whole point
200/200 zealot stalker will beat 120/130 because you just simply overwhelm him, even without micro |
| | www.youtube.com/mrllamasc << Casting & Analysis Videos |
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 Natespank Canada. August 11 2012 12:23. Posts 448 | Profile # |
| "You must construct additional pylons" |
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