I recently picked up broodwar, I barely knew about games when it was released. And, as I followed sc2, I thought BW seemed interesting. I picked up zerg pretty fast, matched my sc2 mechanics, and started to macro. But I still suck, even losing to the AI. Is there anything you guys can tell me? Any way I can get better?
"As to the pool game. You'll notice he played like a faggot."
Heres a build order and example VOD of what I and others on this site consider a great example of the current best ZvP strategy.
ZvP overlord pool 2nd hatchery 3rd hatchery lair spire 4th and 5th hatchery 6th hatchery hydra den and evo 2 sunkens 2nd gas sunken 3rd gas 7th and 8th hatchery 4th gas 2 spores sunken 2nd evo queens 3 more sunkens hive 3rd evo defiler mound nydus 9th 10th and 11th hatcheries
This is a very very rough guidleine to start from.
Now, amridell you mention you are losing to the ai. In the above build order, as soon as you see your opponent is 1 basing you dont build your 3rd hatchery at a 3rd base but instead you put it at your natural. So you still have 3 hats but only 1 choke to defend. You also dont get lair but instead get hydra den and start getting hydra upgrades. This is because you dont know if the Protoss is getting sairs, dts, reavers or zeals yet. You need to make more lings than usual vs 1 base protoss and get a sunken or two at your natural. Start getting hydras, lair and overlord speed. You are now at your weakest, this is when the protoss will attack. If you can hold here, you are in the lead. Add a spire and get some scourge and evo for hydra upgrades. Expand and attack Protoss natural as it comes online. Try to flow back into the build order above sort of. So a 2nd evo chamber, and another hatchery, then queens and hive, defiler.
Nymphaceae United States. August 12 2012 07:38. Posts 343
On August 12 2012 06:19 Amridell wrote: I recently picked up broodwar, I barely knew about games when it was released. And, as I followed sc2, I thought BW seemed interesting. I picked up zerg pretty fast, matched my sc2 mechanics, and started to macro. But I still suck, even losing to the AI. Is there anything you guys can tell me? Any way I can get better?
I would strongly recommend using this site. Zerg Strategy It's also good if you read what it says to do to beat zerg with the race that you're playing against. This will give you more insight about when your opponent isn't doing something that they really should be doing, and it helps you open up the meta game for your own race. I would strongly suggest not to just learn one build for each race.
As far as mechanics go, I would use 1-3/4 for units, 5-8/9/0 for hatcheries, and 8/9/0 for structures in which you might be using for upgrades sooner or later (evo chamber, spawning pool, hydra/ultra den/nydus canal). Also I would recommend putting your function key hotkeys down before you start playing of key points in which you plan to control/watch. For example, if you know where your expansion is, put your F2/3 key down at your expo (you might want your F2 key on your main for later).
As you get more comfortable with your F key hotkeys, you end up coming to a point in which you can't use enough hotkeys for your hatcheries. What I like to do is arrange my hatcheries, so that they're always spaced apart with about the same length, so that I can hit F2, and click the same exact spots while mashing the units I'm trying to produce. Sometimes you may be split, which ends up getting a lot tougher to defend, because you'll be forced to rally your units to 2 different positions, or else you'll lose half your army.
Try to rally your units slightly outside of your base, except for when you''re defending some sort of early game all in. Then you can use the F3 and F4 hotkeys to move them quickly to wherever they need to go, and set up flanks better this way. Good luck, I hope my advice is helpful to you.
On August 12 2012 07:04 Miwyfe wrote: This is a post I made in a similar recent thread.
Heres a build order and example VOD of what I and others on this site consider a great example of the current best ZvP strategy.
ZvP overlord pool 2nd hatchery 3rd hatchery lair spire 4th and 5th hatchery 6th hatchery hydra den and evo 2 sunkens 2nd gas sunken 3rd gas 7th and 8th hatchery 4th gas 2 spores sunken 2nd evo queens 3 more sunkens hive 3rd evo defiler mound nydus 9th 10th and 11th hatcheries
This is a very very rough guidleine to start from.
Now, amridell you mention you are losing to the ai. In the above build order, as soon as you see your opponent is 1 basing you dont build your 3rd hatchery at a 3rd base but instead you put it at your natural. So you still have 3 hats but only 1 choke to defend. You also dont get lair but instead get hydra den and start getting hydra upgrades. This is because you dont know if the Protoss is getting sairs, dts, reavers or zeals yet. You need to make more lings than usual vs 1 base protoss and get a sunken or two at your natural. Start getting hydras, lair and overlord speed. You are now at your weakest, this is when the protoss will attack. If you can hold here, you are in the lead. Add a spire and get some scourge and evo for hydra upgrades. Expand and attack Protoss natural as it comes online. Try to flow back into the build order above sort of. So a 2nd evo chamber, and another hatchery, then queens and hive, defiler.
You and "others" ? not everyone thinks that going 6 hatch before hydra is the best build... for zvp i suggest the standard 3hatch spire into 5hatch hydra
Last edit: 2012-08-12 07:49:40
(づ ಠ益ಠ)づ
Iplaythings Denmark. August 12 2012 09:13. Posts 7067
On August 12 2012 07:04 Miwyfe wrote: This is a post I made in a similar recent thread.
Heres a build order and example VOD of what I and others on this site consider a great example of the current best ZvP strategy.
ZvP overlord pool 2nd hatchery 3rd hatchery lair spire 4th and 5th hatchery 6th hatchery hydra den and evo 2 sunkens 2nd gas sunken 3rd gas 7th and 8th hatchery 4th gas 2 spores sunken 2nd evo queens 3 more sunkens hive 3rd evo defiler mound nydus 9th 10th and 11th hatcheries
This is a very very rough guidleine to start from.
Now, amridell you mention you are losing to the ai. In the above build order, as soon as you see your opponent is 1 basing you dont build your 3rd hatchery at a 3rd base but instead you put it at your natural. So you still have 3 hats but only 1 choke to defend. You also dont get lair but instead get hydra den and start getting hydra upgrades. This is because you dont know if the Protoss is getting sairs, dts, reavers or zeals yet. You need to make more lings than usual vs 1 base protoss and get a sunken or two at your natural. Start getting hydras, lair and overlord speed. You are now at your weakest, this is when the protoss will attack. If you can hold here, you are in the lead. Add a spire and get some scourge and evo for hydra upgrades. Expand and attack Protoss natural as it comes online. Try to flow back into the build order above sort of. So a 2nd evo chamber, and another hatchery, then queens and hive, defiler.
You and "others" ? not everyone thinks that going 6 hatch before hydra is the best build... for zvp i suggest the standard 3hatch spire into 5hatch hydra
It is a really damn stable build with a strong midgame (where it has to limmit P expos or just kill him or you are behind later though but still) and it can transition into lategame easily, when you get the hang of this build it is also easier to experiment with other kind of builds.
I would recommend this build atleast, just remember that there is alot of variations out there, try to stick with 1, especially be keen on when you can drone in certain situations
In the woods, there lurks..
FlaShFTW United States. August 12 2012 09:58. Posts 4960
I hope you know that you aren't supposed to get too many drones at each base
try to follow some quick build orders. ZvP: 3 hatch spire into 5 hatch hydra is a easy one ZvT: 3 hatch muta, but if ur not good at muta, try 3 hatch lurker ZvZ: you'll learn urself this m/u ^_^
also, AI is stupid. don't practice against it. play others and get better that way. AI just stupid 2 gate all ins everytime. its dumb.
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pigmanbear Angola. August 12 2012 10:00. Posts 414
A note about playing the AI ... it is not a good player ... it will sit on one base far too long and then turtle on that one base. Basically hold the first push and don't play like a complete idiot and it's a boring auto-win. Unless there's some other AI I'm missing, playing vs the AI is marginally good for practicing scouting and early-game mechanics, and very little else.
pigmanbear Angola. August 12 2012 10:04. Posts 414
Also I saw a thread similar to this one for a Protoss player, and one guy recommended going 2 gateways every game and sticking to one base before learning more complex builds like FFE, etc. I'd love to hear of any comparable builds for each Zerg matchup for those of us (like me) for whom the thinking and mechanics of a 3-5 hatch build simply consume all energy/APM leaving nothing left for practicing scouting and such.
I know right now for me, anything other than two base, four hatch mass hydra with upgrades and a late third is impossible to pull off, and I have quite a bit of trouble even getting that to run half-smoothly.
I guess the best analogy in SC2 is mass zergling builds. I needed to do those for a while before I really got my mechanics where they needed to be, and I was easily in diamond with pure zergling builds once they were sound.
Last edit: 2012-08-12 10:06:56
Nymphaceae United States. August 12 2012 10:11. Posts 343
On August 12 2012 10:04 pigmanbear wrote: Also I saw a thread similar to this one for a Protoss player, and one guy recommended going 2 gateways every game and sticking to one base before learning more complex builds like FFE, etc. I'd love to hear of any comparable builds for each Zerg matchup for those of us (like me) for whom the thinking and mechanics of a 3-5 hatch build simply consume all energy/APM leaving nothing left for practicing scouting and such.
I know right now for me, anything other than two base, four hatch mass hydra with upgrades and a late third is impossible to pull off, and I have quite a bit of trouble even getting that to run half-smoothly.
I guess the best analogy in SC2 is mass zergling builds. I needed to do those for a while before I really got my mechanics where they needed to be, and I was easily in diamond with pure zergling builds once they were sound.
I don't think you're on the level to start complaining about the APM consumption. JulyZerg had a game where he peaked at 800 APM going 3 hatch lurker. I would like to tell you that if you're playing ICCUP, combatex was at best C-. The ladder in BW is far harder to climb than in SC2 IMO. I was top 100 in SC2, but could barely get to C in BW. I could win vs A- zergs, and A- terrans, but I couldn't beat D- tosses at times. My zvp was horrible...
pigmanbear Angola. August 12 2012 10:20. Posts 414
I'm not just talking about how quickly you move your hands. I know that, being new to the game (having only played casually a decade ago), it would be much easier for me to gradually improve if I started with a simple game plan and slowly added elements. There's no way I'm going to even know what I'm doing if I copy some "standard" three-base build vs Protoss with two early tech paths (Spire and Hydra). I won't know why I'm doing what I'm doing and I sure won't know how to adapt this complex build to what my opponent is doing.
On August 12 2012 10:20 pigmanbear wrote: I'm not just talking about how quickly you move your hands. I know that, being new to the game (having only played casually a decade ago), it would be much easier for me to gradually improve if I started with a simple game plan and slowly added elements. There's no way I'm going to even know what I'm doing if I copy some "standard" three-base build vs Protoss with two early tech paths (Spire and Hydra). I won't know why I'm doing what I'm doing and I sure won't know how to adapt this complex build to what my opponent is doing.
I've read it already. It's not the meta, but it's a solid build. I would recommend the save game function. I like to practice the early game, then the mid game, and then the late game vs one particular build. You'll need a steady practice partner to do this with though.
Gerbilkit United States. August 12 2012 10:55. Posts 29
On August 12 2012 10:11 Nymphaceae wrote: I would like to tell you that if you're playing ICCUP, combatex was at best C-. The ladder in BW is far harder to climb than in SC2 IMO. I was top 100 in SC2, but could barely get to C in BW. I could win vs A- zergs, and A- terrans, but I couldn't beat D- tosses at times. My zvp was horrible...
I agree that ICCUP is really hard. But you're just making that up. A- is so insanely far beyond D- it's ridiculous. If you could really beat A- Z/T there is no conceivable way you would lose to D- toss unless you literally build nothing but drones.
Hell even at a more reasonable level of C- I just really don't see you losing to D-. I am D-, my mechanics are awful, micro non existent, macro fails so hard, the people I play aren't much better. There is just no way.
Amridell> I'm just a noob so I won't comment on strategy. I'll just mention that I learned a lot about the metagame and good builds from watching pro level games and vods and reading some old strategy threads. Your mechanics are really important and those come with practice, but understanding the metagame and what do when you scout your opponent doing X really really helps.
Last edit: 2012-08-12 10:56:08
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Nymphaceae United States. August 12 2012 11:01. Posts 343
On August 12 2012 10:11 Nymphaceae wrote: I would like to tell you that if you're playing ICCUP, combatex was at best C-. The ladder in BW is far harder to climb than in SC2 IMO. I was top 100 in SC2, but could barely get to C in BW. I could win vs A- zergs, and A- terrans, but I couldn't beat D- tosses at times. My zvp was horrible...
I agree that ICCUP is really hard. But you're just making that up. A- is so insanely far beyond D- it's ridiculous. If you could really beat A- Z/T there is no conceivable way you would lose to D- toss unless you literally build nothing but drones.
Hell even at a more reasonable level of C- I just really don't see you losing to D-. I am D-, my mechanics are awful, micro non existent, macro fails so hard, the people I play aren't much better. There is just no way.
Amridell> I'm just a noob so I won't comment on strategy. I'll just mention that I learned a lot about the metagame and good builds from watching pro level games and vods and reading some old strategy threads. Your mechanics are really important and those come with practice, but understanding the metagame and what do when you scout your opponent doing X really really helps.
I'm not talking about now. If you never ever practice ZvP, but you practice the other ones a lot. It's horrible, because you always miss the timings of the sair scout and basic things like that.
3FFA United States. August 12 2012 11:14. Posts 2654
On August 12 2012 10:20 pigmanbear wrote: I'm not just talking about how quickly you move your hands. I know that, being new to the game (having only played casually a decade ago), it would be much easier for me to gradually improve if I started with a simple game plan and slowly added elements. There's no way I'm going to even know what I'm doing if I copy some "standard" three-base build vs Protoss with two early tech paths (Spire and Hydra). I won't know why I'm doing what I'm doing and I sure won't know how to adapt this complex build to what my opponent is doing.
I've read it already. It's not the meta, but it's a solid build. I would recommend the save game function. I like to practice the early game, then the mid game, and then the late game vs one particular build. You'll need a steady practice partner to do this with though.
Or Just either the computer or Lan game -> remove cpu right before countdown ends -> practice alone..
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Nymphaceae United States. August 12 2012 11:17. Posts 343
On August 12 2012 10:20 pigmanbear wrote: I'm not just talking about how quickly you move your hands. I know that, being new to the game (having only played casually a decade ago), it would be much easier for me to gradually improve if I started with a simple game plan and slowly added elements. There's no way I'm going to even know what I'm doing if I copy some "standard" three-base build vs Protoss with two early tech paths (Spire and Hydra). I won't know why I'm doing what I'm doing and I sure won't know how to adapt this complex build to what my opponent is doing.
I've read it already. It's not the meta, but it's a solid build. I would recommend the save game function. I like to practice the early game, then the mid game, and then the late game vs one particular build. You'll need a steady practice partner to do this with though.
Or Just either the computer or Lan game -> remove cpu right before countdown ends -> practice alone..
Once you've played enough to feel a bit comfortable with the game, it's also great to have friends or a team to practice with. There is the sGs skype group, as well as a bunch of low level teams and clans. Or you can just talk to people on iCCup and add them to your friends list (/f a sB.Birdie) to get friends to play with. Also, if you enter a tournament or league for low level players (D ranks team league, D ranks individual tournament, defiler tour, etc.) then that gives a lot of motivation to practice and get better.
You're welcome to add me on Skype and iCCup if you want, sB.Birdie on iCCup and Jack RCDF on Skype.
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ImbaTosS United Kingdom. August 13 2012 18:18. Posts 1217
On August 12 2012 12:20 Birdie wrote: Once you've played enough to feel a bit comfortable with the game, it's also great to have friends or a team to practice with. There is the sGs skype group, as well as a bunch of low level teams and clans. Or you can just talk to people on iCCup and add them to your friends list (/f a sB.Birdie) to get friends to play with. Also, if you enter a tournament or league for low level players (D ranks team league, D ranks individual tournament, defiler tour, etc.) then that gives a lot of motivation to practice and get better.
You're welcome to add me on Skype and iCCup if you want, sB.Birdie on iCCup and Jack RCDF on Skype.
I recommend taking this offer up. Having people to call on at any time for practice is invaluable. Tournaments are also a good call. You meet people, and you get a flavour of what it's like under a bit of pressure. GL!
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Salivanth Australia. August 13 2012 18:55. Posts 823
If you want to do all-ins to improve while you learn basic mechanics, which is fair enough, you've picked a difficult race unfortunately. Zerg is difficult to do all-ins with. ZvZ should be fairly easy admittedly, and I don't know how ZvT plays out, having only ever played Protoss. But a 3 hatch Hydra bust in ZvP is probably your best bet: It's a moderately macro-based build, getting 3 fast hatcheries (Which is the standard early game) and can work at every level. I can't provide you with a BO though, but hopefully someone else can.
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ImbaTosS United Kingdom. August 13 2012 18:18. Posts 1217
